DEFO back at CX
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GMFs letter smells of DECs next. I personally think we might need to strike to stop the madness. I know it sounds crazy but how much more can we let these people steam roll everyone of us. Another letter to the AOA telling us what they are going to do. We did not stop DECs last time but we better now or no more reason to be in the AOA or at this place. Let's wait and see how many they second to AHK or Air China. We are getting no say in any of this yet they want a good relationship with us. Well this just showed me it will now for sure never happen.
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Someone said similar things about ASL once
Now one is the Chairman
Trafalagar
the only post's of yours I will read of yours will be after you say
' I've quit training '
Zip it will ya
Now one is the Chairman
Trafalagar
the only post's of yours I will read of yours will be after you say
' I've quit training '
Zip it will ya
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Well, all I can say is 'good luck with that' toward the entire scenario.
Much of the world has changed and the airline business is a seniority driven one in most places--so getting in early is very important. Anyone who is considering where to go will have this in mind--and look toward future opportunities there (if joining for anything other than a stepping stone--which will attract mostly lower time inexperienced folks--who will then take their experience with them if they become disenchanted). Things in HKG have NOT been on the upswing lately and training resources are and will continue to be extremely limited -- no matter where they send anyone. Unlike things in the past, CX has been lagging majors in most first world countries and it's no real secret where we've gone over the past two years.
So the core issues aren't really addressed and I really doubt the 'patch' will have much effect.
If you're a selfish bastage who is hard to live with and having trouble with your marriage, running out and hiring a new wife (and hoping she doesn't figure out the real problem is with YOU) rarely works out well. Although the new pu$$y might seem nice for a little while, eventually things head south because you never made the fundamental effort to learn to live with someone.
And inevitably you wind up with TWO people who don't like you very much. Who are after your money after you've already spent a whole bunch of money on them.
Probably better to have made the effort to get along with the first one.
I actually see this as neutral overall toward the goings on. When one considers a career one must look toward the future and it has to be seemingly bright -- so this will have to happen before new folks start banging the doors down methinks.
At least they will know what they are getting into in any case.
Much of the world has changed and the airline business is a seniority driven one in most places--so getting in early is very important. Anyone who is considering where to go will have this in mind--and look toward future opportunities there (if joining for anything other than a stepping stone--which will attract mostly lower time inexperienced folks--who will then take their experience with them if they become disenchanted). Things in HKG have NOT been on the upswing lately and training resources are and will continue to be extremely limited -- no matter where they send anyone. Unlike things in the past, CX has been lagging majors in most first world countries and it's no real secret where we've gone over the past two years.
So the core issues aren't really addressed and I really doubt the 'patch' will have much effect.
If you're a selfish bastage who is hard to live with and having trouble with your marriage, running out and hiring a new wife (and hoping she doesn't figure out the real problem is with YOU) rarely works out well. Although the new pu$$y might seem nice for a little while, eventually things head south because you never made the fundamental effort to learn to live with someone.
And inevitably you wind up with TWO people who don't like you very much. Who are after your money after you've already spent a whole bunch of money on them.
Probably better to have made the effort to get along with the first one.
I actually see this as neutral overall toward the goings on. When one considers a career one must look toward the future and it has to be seemingly bright -- so this will have to happen before new folks start banging the doors down methinks.
At least they will know what they are getting into in any case.
Last edited by Shep69; 21st Jul 2016 at 13:43.
Why are you guys so against SOs wanting to better their position, they had the option to better their financial position but voted no for the greater good, now they receive the knowledge of DEFO which affects SOs more than any other pilot group.
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Fear mongering aside, and I do understand it's shot in da ass for SO's.
DEFO's also bring into the company a different "non-cx" level of experience. We all acknowledged that having ONLY low-hour cadets as new recruits was a bad thing. (ie in 15yrs, where ALL Captains had zero experience outside CX?) Recruiting experienced airline/ex-military will (IMO) make this company better.
Sorry SO's, your lifetime earnings have taken a hit (2yrs difference between SO and JFO?), but at the end of the day, your time to command hasn't really changed, and lets not forget, you bought very little to the company in the first place. (That includes a few of you Dash8 legends).
For the SO's with appropriate experience, I would hope they apply for DEFO. No change in seniority means the 100hr spikey-haired cadet that joined a week before them will still get to command first. This just means CX is rewarding them financially for their experience, which they should have done in the first place.
DEFO's also bring into the company a different "non-cx" level of experience. We all acknowledged that having ONLY low-hour cadets as new recruits was a bad thing. (ie in 15yrs, where ALL Captains had zero experience outside CX?) Recruiting experienced airline/ex-military will (IMO) make this company better.
Sorry SO's, your lifetime earnings have taken a hit (2yrs difference between SO and JFO?), but at the end of the day, your time to command hasn't really changed, and lets not forget, you bought very little to the company in the first place. (That includes a few of you Dash8 legends).
For the SO's with appropriate experience, I would hope they apply for DEFO. No change in seniority means the 100hr spikey-haired cadet that joined a week before them will still get to command first. This just means CX is rewarding them financially for their experience, which they should have done in the first place.
Last edited by Will IB Fayed; 22nd Jul 2016 at 01:08.
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Each and every SO should apply for the positions regardless of prior experience so each and everyone of them is assessed.
Each applicant by the letter of the contract needs to be assessed PRIOR to any DEFO recruiting.
Each applicant by the letter of the contract needs to be assessed PRIOR to any DEFO recruiting.
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As I see it, DEFO is planned on the Airbus & jumbo (warning:freighter only flying!!)
That means that the 777 FOs will continue to be all be low or zero hour cadets.
Smart move Anna & Dom, clearly experience has become an issue (FOPS mangement's fault), so you urgently need experienced pilots to join. Then you decide to leave the ultra-low experience guys who desperately need sectors on the fleet where they'll get 1 sector a month, and put the high hour pilots on the fleets where they're likely to average 4-6 PF sectors a week.
Brilliant!!!
That means that the 777 FOs will continue to be all be low or zero hour cadets.
Smart move Anna & Dom, clearly experience has become an issue (FOPS mangement's fault), so you urgently need experienced pilots to join. Then you decide to leave the ultra-low experience guys who desperately need sectors on the fleet where they'll get 1 sector a month, and put the high hour pilots on the fleets where they're likely to average 4-6 PF sectors a week.
Brilliant!!!
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they had the option to better their financial position but voted no for the greater good, now they receive the knowledge of DEFO which affects SOs more than any other pilot group.
Don't believe the company propaganda that this is a response to a no vote on the TA.
Each and every SO should apply for the positions regardless of prior experience so each and everyone of them is assessed.
Each applicant by the letter of the contract needs to be assessed PRIOR to any DEFO recruiting.
Each applicant by the letter of the contract needs to be assessed PRIOR to any DEFO recruiting.
Just remember that DEFOs were already planned long before the vote was counted. We could've voted 100% yes, and this still would have happened.
Don't believe the company propaganda that this is a response to a no vote on the TA.
Don't believe the company propaganda that this is a response to a no vote on the TA.
Im fairly certain the company has already compiled a list of the suitable SOs using information from when they joined. SOs simply putting their application in who don't meet the minimums won't achieve anything
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fairly certain the company has already compiled a list of the suitable SOs using information from when they joined. SOs simply putting their application in who don't meet the minimums won't achieve anything
If they don't apply, the company will say in the future they had the opportunity but did not apply. They need to apply even if they know they will not get it, just to complete the procedure.
Look at your COS, CX only employs suitable officers via three means.
DEFOs can only be recruited after there is no more suitable SOs.
People applying to Hong Kong Airlines are experiencing over 6 month wait from CAD to get licence conversation terms. It will be 12 months before a DEFO will start line training if the SOs apply now for those positions.
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Sorry, I'm a bit slow, but...
Can someone explain to me why the company would open DEFO positions only to hire its own SOs?
Do they want to upgrade out of seniority? Do they think DEFOs will require less training than JFOs?
I'm a bit lost here. Though it's a familiar feeling for me.
Can someone explain to me why the company would open DEFO positions only to hire its own SOs?
Do they want to upgrade out of seniority? Do they think DEFOs will require less training than JFOs?
I'm a bit lost here. Though it's a familiar feeling for me.
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Each and every SO should apply - end of story, then it's on paper with a date and time stamp.
Another big issue here should be the immigration slant.
Why should CX be allowed to bring in "expats" to take jobs from qualified locals; those who already have an ID card, permanent or otherwise ???
If you look at it from another direction, KA is employing pilots for FO positions with I believe these days less than 200 hrs total time (mpl pilots) and throwing them straight into the right hand seat of both 330 & 320 aircraft !! If they are qualified, I would surmise each and every CX SO is qualified for a similar position. CX can put any minimum qualifications down on paper they like however the precedent (immigration and qualification wise) has already been set by THIER 100% owned "Sister Airline".. There should be only one standard should there not?
Maybe this is another immigration/tax debacle law suit in the making ?? They still haven't settled all the ones from the past which (thanks to the vote) are still haunting them.
Another big issue here should be the immigration slant.
Why should CX be allowed to bring in "expats" to take jobs from qualified locals; those who already have an ID card, permanent or otherwise ???
If you look at it from another direction, KA is employing pilots for FO positions with I believe these days less than 200 hrs total time (mpl pilots) and throwing them straight into the right hand seat of both 330 & 320 aircraft !! If they are qualified, I would surmise each and every CX SO is qualified for a similar position. CX can put any minimum qualifications down on paper they like however the precedent (immigration and qualification wise) has already been set by THIER 100% owned "Sister Airline".. There should be only one standard should there not?
Maybe this is another immigration/tax debacle law suit in the making ?? They still haven't settled all the ones from the past which (thanks to the vote) are still haunting them.
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Sorry re last post, I think I was mistaken regarding the qualifications of the KA "Direct Entry FO MPL" pilots. It may be LESS THAN 100 hours in an aircraft with possibly NO solo flying........
I found an IATA link that actually shows the KA supplier of MPL pilots and the resultant qualifications.
Without exception then, every CX SO is qualified..
If these men/women are qualified for direct entry FO positions then how could the Immigration Dept allow expatriates to be imported to take the positions.
Secondly, the HK CAD would not have a legal stool to stand on re saying the CX SO's are not qualified for the positions as they have already set the precedent by supporting and allowing the qualifications of the KA MPL pilots.
See link - link Spread Sheet is at bottom "MPL course Global Tracker"
If these qualifications are good enough for CX's 100% owned and managed "Sister" airline; they should damn well equally be good enough for CX..
I found an IATA link that actually shows the KA supplier of MPL pilots and the resultant qualifications.
Without exception then, every CX SO is qualified..
If these men/women are qualified for direct entry FO positions then how could the Immigration Dept allow expatriates to be imported to take the positions.
Secondly, the HK CAD would not have a legal stool to stand on re saying the CX SO's are not qualified for the positions as they have already set the precedent by supporting and allowing the qualifications of the KA MPL pilots.
See link - link Spread Sheet is at bottom "MPL course Global Tracker"
If these qualifications are good enough for CX's 100% owned and managed "Sister" airline; they should damn well equally be good enough for CX..
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Obviously, this spells the opening of a NYC base if the USAOA passes their TA. Actually, with or without the TA this will likely happen. If they can pay HKG pilots overtime to fly to New York, then they certainly can afford to pay US pilots the same overtime (at a cheaper rate) to fly between JFK and HKG. They don't even need averaging over two months! However, there is never any harm in asking. The problem is that you now have one group willing to work for blatantly less than another group, and happy to do it.
....and that is why they are only hiring DEFOs onto the bus and queen.
....and that is why they are only hiring DEFOs onto the bus and queen.