So called SCABS
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The very common sense solution for these "misguided" guys is to smile at their bank book and realise that they have one of the best contract jobs in airline flying.
Simple as that.
Simple as that.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Justa question for you 3 holer. How many of the 4 airlines - Ansett, Australian, East-West, and IPEC - are around today to boast of that "victory" over the pilots?
The answer is NOT ONE.
Rather than negotiate with the pilots union - the AFAP, which by the way IS still alive and well, AND represents the ONLY all domestic Australian airline pilots (Virgin Blue) - the management of those 4 airlines killed the very companies for which purportedly ran.
Let no-one hold the Australian dispute as an example of successful anti-union strategy. It was a grand example of irresponsible management that baited their workers and then refused discusssion. The result was the demise of the companies - NOT the union that represented the pilots. The "manager" of Ansett at the time, Graeme MacMahon now works behind a bar at a Melbourne football club, whilst the majority of the 78% of pilots who didn`t scab found airline employment overseas - a percentage of these have since returned to fly for Virgin Blue.
It`s obvious that the CX management feel they can also gain a "victory", however the AOA has still not used the full complement of artillery available to them, and in a war of attrition and guerilla-style tactics by the HKAOA, the management have apparently lost their sense of responsibility to the company and ultimately their OWN security.
The answer is NOT ONE.
Rather than negotiate with the pilots union - the AFAP, which by the way IS still alive and well, AND represents the ONLY all domestic Australian airline pilots (Virgin Blue) - the management of those 4 airlines killed the very companies for which purportedly ran.
Let no-one hold the Australian dispute as an example of successful anti-union strategy. It was a grand example of irresponsible management that baited their workers and then refused discusssion. The result was the demise of the companies - NOT the union that represented the pilots. The "manager" of Ansett at the time, Graeme MacMahon now works behind a bar at a Melbourne football club, whilst the majority of the 78% of pilots who didn`t scab found airline employment overseas - a percentage of these have since returned to fly for Virgin Blue.
It`s obvious that the CX management feel they can also gain a "victory", however the AOA has still not used the full complement of artillery available to them, and in a war of attrition and guerilla-style tactics by the HKAOA, the management have apparently lost their sense of responsibility to the company and ultimately their OWN security.
Join Date: May 2002
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6 feetunder. Thankyou for your reasoned response to my post. Yes I am in Hong Kong, yes I work for CX. I understand that the union has been attempting to negotiate, but as far as I can see, always against a backdrop of union activity against the company. This distressing state of affairs has now been ongoing for 8 years - ridiculous. Drop all action, replace the committee and get back to the table. I know that ND and co are well thought of by the majority of the union and that the committee supporters would consider it a breach of faith to stop supporting them. There is a bigger picture, all I want is for people actively involved to take off their blinkers. And finally I am as distressed at the fate of the 49ers as anyone but reality and my experience tells me that they are sadly historical relics of a stupid fight.
Regards.
Regards.
Join Date: May 2002
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Kaptin M. Your grasp of logic is a bit confusing. So now the union which represented pilots from many companies all over Australia represents the members of one company basically in one city. And the vast majority of aviators caught up in the dispute, involving, as is the case here, part time inept union management on one side and full time company management on t'other, have to work overseas or outside avaiation. You say they won? All the rich folk behind the scenes are smiling still and their lawyers and accountants are smiling and the wives and children and children's children of the brave but so naive pilots involved are still scarred. Remember how many took their own lives? The horror of being unemployed with no immediate chance of employment and bills to pay and food to buy and homes to lose fortunes on is beyond shocking. Look at the bigger picture, save the union, there will be winnable battles later when you will get all you are asking for now and more. If you must consider the antipodean situation look what happened to salaries after the dispute was over.
Whispering "T" Jet
Kaptin M, if you are really trying to tell me that the AFAP has the same industrial strength and expertise it had prior to the '89 dispute, then I must bring to your attention couple of changes to the pilot's lot that have taken place down here whilst you have been up there in the land of the rising sun.
1. General aviation in this country has never been worse and it's decline started in 1991. Wages and working conditions have deteriorated because the AFAP do not have the resources or industrial muscle to pull offending Operators into line anymore. This area ie. GA is the biggest section of the AFAP membership. It is not all the union's fault, as some pilots will continue to work for peanuts and bend the rules to stay in a job and more pilots are doing it these days because the AFAP does not represent a threat to the Companies anymore.
2. Virgin pilots work 70 to 80 hours a month, minimum rest on overnights and are paid (Capt. $120,000 & FO. $63,000) nowhere near their domestic opposition Qantas pilots. Do you honestly believe that 13 years ago there would be such a disparity between the two domestic airlines. By the way, the National Jet pilots are also in the Federation and their pay scales are similar and have been for the past 13 years!
It is a fact that any airline will go out of business if it is not managed properly. I have noticed a number of your posts imply that because Ansett didn't tow the AFAP line, that's the reason it went out of business. More than a little arrogant Kap (?) I do concede that because of the length of the dispute, Ansett was severly damaged financially at the time but it had many years to recover had it had good management. IPEC and East West were never realistically expected to survive because of their size, so if it makes you feel better - yes, the AFAP did put them out of business.
You say
Let no-one hold the Australian dispute as an example of successful anti-union strategy.
There is no one I have met in the past 13 years that has held that point of view. I am sure Hawke, Crean or Kelty would have blown their bags had that been the case - deathly silence. The whole thing was a total disaster for everyone in the airline industry and many more associated with it. There were no winners and I have never heard anyone "boast" of a victory over the pilots for the same reasons as above.
My point was and still is - the Cathay Dispute has disturbing similarities to our war of '89. The Company will not talk to the Pilots - FULL STOP. The Recruitment Ban is not working and if this drags on too much longer the new recruits will out number the AOA membership and another good pilot's union will go down the drain.
In this industry, good CRM dictates we learn from the mistakes of others. The HKAOA must change their strategy very soon or..as we have
heard before - the Fat Lady will be priming her vocal chords for the Grande Finale.
1. General aviation in this country has never been worse and it's decline started in 1991. Wages and working conditions have deteriorated because the AFAP do not have the resources or industrial muscle to pull offending Operators into line anymore. This area ie. GA is the biggest section of the AFAP membership. It is not all the union's fault, as some pilots will continue to work for peanuts and bend the rules to stay in a job and more pilots are doing it these days because the AFAP does not represent a threat to the Companies anymore.
2. Virgin pilots work 70 to 80 hours a month, minimum rest on overnights and are paid (Capt. $120,000 & FO. $63,000) nowhere near their domestic opposition Qantas pilots. Do you honestly believe that 13 years ago there would be such a disparity between the two domestic airlines. By the way, the National Jet pilots are also in the Federation and their pay scales are similar and have been for the past 13 years!
It is a fact that any airline will go out of business if it is not managed properly. I have noticed a number of your posts imply that because Ansett didn't tow the AFAP line, that's the reason it went out of business. More than a little arrogant Kap (?) I do concede that because of the length of the dispute, Ansett was severly damaged financially at the time but it had many years to recover had it had good management. IPEC and East West were never realistically expected to survive because of their size, so if it makes you feel better - yes, the AFAP did put them out of business.
You say
Let no-one hold the Australian dispute as an example of successful anti-union strategy.
There is no one I have met in the past 13 years that has held that point of view. I am sure Hawke, Crean or Kelty would have blown their bags had that been the case - deathly silence. The whole thing was a total disaster for everyone in the airline industry and many more associated with it. There were no winners and I have never heard anyone "boast" of a victory over the pilots for the same reasons as above.
My point was and still is - the Cathay Dispute has disturbing similarities to our war of '89. The Company will not talk to the Pilots - FULL STOP. The Recruitment Ban is not working and if this drags on too much longer the new recruits will out number the AOA membership and another good pilot's union will go down the drain.
In this industry, good CRM dictates we learn from the mistakes of others. The HKAOA must change their strategy very soon or..as we have
heard before - the Fat Lady will be priming her vocal chords for the Grande Finale.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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What's that I hear? Its the big Mama herself,La,La La,La,La,LaLa, that's right folks, yes indeedy It's The Fat Lady and she's warming up those vocal chords! Her Last Performance was in Australia a few months ago, lets hope this is not a repeat performance! 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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shortly, I take it you aren't a member of the AOA? If you were you probably wouldn't make such callous statements regarding the victims of CX management. It isn't just the 49ers, there were unwarranted demotions as well as ridiculous recategorisations. What about them? More relics? And it continues.
You would also remember a conversation between the President and DT that basically lays out the option of dropping everything in hopes of resovling this thing. Unfortunately the CE didn't want to play, he could have had it then. Now that was an OFFER he shouldn't have refused. He wants it all and you seem prepared to give it to him. Where does it end?
You would also remember a conversation between the President and DT that basically lays out the option of dropping everything in hopes of resovling this thing. Unfortunately the CE didn't want to play, he could have had it then. Now that was an OFFER he shouldn't have refused. He wants it all and you seem prepared to give it to him. Where does it end?
Join Date: May 2002
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6feetunder, sorry if I offended. Not intentional. Ex member of AOA left after being ignored and not agreeing with action being taken or not taken. I have made my position clear on my sympathies for the 49ers and any other innocents drawn into this mess and in that last post was only being frank. I am no union bashing management stooge. I am an experienced operator been around the block a few times. I am hopeful of damage control and this damage control will only be instigated by the AOA. Talk of the re-election of current leadership of union with clear mandate for militancy fills me with dread for all of us. Reference to that promise to 'drop everything', it wasn't everything was it.
Regards to you and my sincere condolences to the 49ers. I am convinced that the victims of this dispute, although shabbily treated by management, are in their position because of the constant union activity against the company and an escalation of that activity. I am thankful, in a perverse sort of way, that it was not more.
Regards to you and my sincere condolences to the 49ers. I am convinced that the victims of this dispute, although shabbily treated by management, are in their position because of the constant union activity against the company and an escalation of that activity. I am thankful, in a perverse sort of way, that it was not more.
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So shortly, you mention action taken or not taken. What action would you like to have seen taken? All the 'activity' was strictly one way was it? There have been no attacks (for lack of a better word) from the company, is that what you are saying? You are better off now then you were say 5 years ago?
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6feetunder. I did not want to get involved in a thread with you or anyone that could lead to further acrimony between just us or that might offend others. OK, here goes with no malice aforethought. Action not taken first. Any pilot who legally joins this airline should have automatic right to join its union. I am talking about two groups here, first the ASL pilots - remember them - ostracised, discriminated against, vilified and I recall the scab word then too, the decision to ban them from the AOA was the second or maybe third mistake the part time AOA management made which led towards the place we are now. Second, any pilot with a letter before the ban should not be held liable. Further, the AOA moderates Cprune, that is not being done professionally enough, in my opinion. Scab lists have no place on a professional pilots network. Lists of non-union members, isn't union membership by choice? Since when did it become compulsory? And, by not moderating lists of this nature they are inevitably innacurate causing much pain and revulsion. Moderating some of the vitriolic language would also seem so obvious as not worth mentioning but it is not done. The AOA advised its members to stop posting on this web page, reason, because management has access, rubbish, its because on this forum both points of view are expressed and arguments can be taken to an occasional logical conclusion. I have a shock for the AOA, management have access to Cprune also. Action taken, decisions not to acquaint the membership with all details of offers made, not completely stopping action against the company whilst ostensibly seeking negotiations etc. I tried in vain to convince people to accept the offer that included all captains on A scales. I would have convinced the 49ers that it was in the greater interest to accept that humbling 'interview to assess loyalty' before re-hiring and horribly I do not think all would have been re-hired, but most would. I am not one of those who believe ND and co have done a good job, quite to the contrary. On both side of this dispute there are egos and ulterior motives involved and these have no place in dispute moderation. As usual regards to you and yours. If you are a 49er then you have my greatest sympathy and if I can help you, without hurting others, that would be my earnest desire.
cadets?
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Ouch Hustler, by the way, 'your' adjective of or belonging to you. 'You're', shortened version of you are. Coming from you I take that as a compliment. 99 - you were already nearly five years into industrial action against the company. Please tell the facts as they are. What did you expect? CX to roll over and play dead for you?
Join Date: May 2000
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i can tell you now that this industrial stuff is going just like the 1989 dispute down in Oz. I know because my brother was involved in it. There are more guys joining up here every month and the courses are filling up.this trickle will end up a flood and in a years time when cathay have over two hundred plus pilots employed that stupid ban is going to look pretty sick and so is the AOA because that is 200 pilots that won't be members. you would be interested to know that some members of the AOA that i have met don't think the ban is working and is splitting the membership - right into the hands of Management. you will soon have the AOA with less members than pilots in Cathay and that will be a blow to the union.
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TSI. You are quite correct. I know for a fact that Ozzie 89ers tried to provide AOA disunion committee with advice on what happened in Oz. They were rebutted - different time and place being the ostensible excuse for ignoring them. Well, the place, here in Hong Kong is far less hospitable to union activity than most other places. I am not saying that's good, merely a fact of life here. The only way back to the negotiating table would be with a new committee. Hope the remaining membership speaks out against increased militancy at the upcoming election. The ones that shout the loudest aren't necessarily correct. CX management must be laughing as the committee fractures the pilot body yet again. There is no way forward as things stand. The ban is a joke, OTP is great, sickness levels are down and the company is making money. Why should they capitulate now? To all intents and purposes they have already won. I am still really sad that most if not all of the 49ers could be re-employed now if the disunion committee hadn't been pushing a different barrow.
