Relief and the W crew
Join Date: Dec 2003
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goathead, you are lucky they replaced the rock hard clipboard with the new flimsy POS version....As the RQ, if you are witching and moaning about how you are being screwed on rest and why I am giving more bunk time for the operating crew, I would of slap you awake with it right away! 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Monster..hear hear. As an ex Bus driver, I always strived to be both fair and equitable, often giving the better rest periods to the relief just to keep the show on the road..I guess it meant for a more harmonious night out into ultra longhaul land. The noise box behind the cockpit in the 340 is nothing short of crap. It is noisy, with little if no sound proofing..and I thought it was only Mongolians who used carpets on walls..and the CC work with little regard to mindful noise control...this stacks up to the Capt getting rest that is substandard and worse than the guy who hits the LCRM. Goat..fess up. You are a prize **** my friend. This prima D approach will earn you no points and lets face it..respect the skipper..he or she has little left in the gammit of Captain's authority...and God help us, if you ever get into the LHS for the purpose of long haul flying, you may even appreciate it yourself. Just count yourself lucky that you are resting in an environment that IS fit for purpose. That said..just reflect on the principle reasons YOU are there in the first place. It's to provide for a crew proportion that allows the aircraft to arrive efficiently and safely at destination. If there is risk of diversion, be prepared to take an extra hammering on rest..I for one have stretched it out for those who fly the approach, the potential GA in atrocious weather and a low fuel recovery to an unfamiliar alternate...half time pen pushing doesn't really hold argument. As the comrades have said..MTFU!!!
Relief and the W crew
This is hilarious! Thanks for the good chuckle guys!
"...some do W's to...save their marriage,...." Hahaha, destroy it more likely!
I do feel the issues that the goat has stuck his head above the parapet for, are relevant though.
The "W" pattern has always been dubious when viewed from flight safety angle. 2nd pattern for these guys paired together is normally a bit of a zombie led train ride.
Rostering wise, I think the goat is more questioning why the compact rosters are normally only available to the senior FO's, but as a result they get shafted on the rest etc. perhaps some more ammunition for the RP negotiations? How about a proper FIFO type roster?
Can we please lighten up on the vitriol and view this like adults?
"...some do W's to...save their marriage,...." Hahaha, destroy it more likely!
I do feel the issues that the goat has stuck his head above the parapet for, are relevant though.
The "W" pattern has always been dubious when viewed from flight safety angle. 2nd pattern for these guys paired together is normally a bit of a zombie led train ride.
Rostering wise, I think the goat is more questioning why the compact rosters are normally only available to the senior FO's, but as a result they get shafted on the rest etc. perhaps some more ammunition for the RP negotiations? How about a proper FIFO type roster?
Can we please lighten up on the vitriol and view this like adults?
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Join Date: Apr 2002
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Thanks Farman
It's just happened a little too regularly for me lately , all at the expense of a W pattern chap, I am always accommodating just getting a little sick of the same type doing the same thing.....I like to note non W pattern Capts are far more flexible, that was my point.
The ph in call wasn't to the fleet office...
Maybe I need to HTFU so someone can commute a little easier.....
It's just happened a little too regularly for me lately , all at the expense of a W pattern chap, I am always accommodating just getting a little sick of the same type doing the same thing.....I like to note non W pattern Capts are far more flexible, that was my point.
The ph in call wasn't to the fleet office...
Maybe I need to HTFU so someone can commute a little easier.....
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Yes, HTFU.
Please tell me your not rested for such duty prior to doors closed, I'll show you the way to L1. If you can't do the job stay at home and submit an F-ASR.
LOL
Please tell me your not rested for such duty prior to doors closed, I'll show you the way to L1. If you can't do the job stay at home and submit an F-ASR.
LOL
Join Date: Jan 2012
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W Patterns CAN be fine
Having done the W Pattern commute a while back, here is my take. If you elect for whatever reason to do it, it IS entirely possible to be rested for all 4 flights. What is NOT (usually) possible is to have a full on life at BOTH ends of the patterns and still be OK. I tried to do this initially and there was a price to pay in terms of performance. Whilst it is wrong of those who say outright "W's are a safety issue", it does behove those who exercise this opportunity to strike a balance. It's referred to as a "lifestyle" roster which allows you to achieve an out of work lifestyle, so some sacrifice somewhere else may have to be accepted. I NEVER expected any favours, (although got a lot - especially I must say from my American friends).
Goat: I simply don't believe that you suffer any more, (what you perceive to be), 'Rest Injustice' from commuting Capt's to non-commuters. Both flavors can make demands you may not 'feel' equitable, both groups have the odd selfish guy. In my experience most commuters are very aware of fatigue as they have to deal with it more. And finally - MTFU!
Goat: I simply don't believe that you suffer any more, (what you perceive to be), 'Rest Injustice' from commuting Capt's to non-commuters. Both flavors can make demands you may not 'feel' equitable, both groups have the odd selfish guy. In my experience most commuters are very aware of fatigue as they have to deal with it more. And finally - MTFU!
Last edited by White None; 28th Jun 2013 at 03:01.
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Dan buster, the silk pajama mob are almost long gone thank god , does that make it ok does it?
normally everyones pretty bl##dy good , just a few who abuse there W pattern existence.
White none
quote, In my experience most commuters are very aware of fatigue as they have to deal with it more' , exactly , they have to deal with it more by using the relief crew for such...
normally everyones pretty bl##dy good , just a few who abuse there W pattern existence.
White none
quote, In my experience most commuters are very aware of fatigue as they have to deal with it more' , exactly , they have to deal with it more by using the relief crew for such...
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And you didn't read my post....
I did try to be evenhanded about the reality of it, believe I made it clear that my dealing with it was done outside of the aircraft so I could be at least as fresh as the out and back guys. Guess the "MTFU" ending was a low blow but that's life so MTFU
I did try to be evenhanded about the reality of it, believe I made it clear that my dealing with it was done outside of the aircraft so I could be at least as fresh as the out and back guys. Guess the "MTFU" ending was a low blow but that's life so MTFU
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Whitenon.. Spot on..most of the Skippers who start the W patterns probably do try and set their hair alight down route and in the squidge of min time off in HKG but most if not all will eventually respect the hardships of the W and better manage the pragmatics of the sectors home. to be fair Goat..and to be equally fair on those who share the same small cubicles with you..if you can't hack the rest periods, just send in the ASR...we all know its not ideal, probably unsafe as well, under the legal definitions on offer from the HSE..as are split duties etc..but as we have all said..under the auspice of MTFU..nobody press ganged you into this job and if its not for you, check out Fly Dubai, Easy Jet or Jetstar..live the bunk free life and give the boys a break!!!
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So who's doing what???
Everyone needs to MTFU here. Who are the good guys, who are the bad guys? What makes it good/bad? If you suggest better ways to deal with or organise rest then please, let's hear it. Some of the aforementioned 330 drivers would love to hear suggestions on how to improve the (so-called) rest that's able to be achieved to and from Oz.
Here's a start...
Some skippers ALWAYS take middle rest. Others ALWAYS give PF the choice.
Wrong? Right? Fair? Unfair?
ULH guys, do you want it split half and half? 4/5/2?
Do people always send/receive emails prior to duty with rest info?
Instead of complaining, constructively criticise...
Here's a start...
Some skippers ALWAYS take middle rest. Others ALWAYS give PF the choice.
Wrong? Right? Fair? Unfair?
ULH guys, do you want it split half and half? 4/5/2?
Do people always send/receive emails prior to duty with rest info?
Instead of complaining, constructively criticise...
Join Date: Dec 2012
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I feel this should go without saying but if you're a CN or an FO who will be switching off with an FO/SO who is not based in the same place as you, then you should let them know if you intend to rest at a "strange" time. For example, if you're LAX based and you want to work first out of LA on the midnight departure for whatever reason, that's cool. I'll enjoy my time in LA during daylight hours and be ready to sleep first. If you say nothing until sign-on, then I'll be ready to work first and toss and turn in the bunk until you decide you're tired at which point I'll headbob for the final 6 hours of the sector. Just doesn't seem very nice to leave guys in the dark if your body clock is somewhere vastly different than you're home base, whatever the reason.
From my perspective, it is very appreciated to receive a heads up from the CN regarding rest.
I am a commuter to HKG and as such it is easy for me fly through the night if I stay on my home time instead of moving over to Hong Kong time. I always try to give whoever I'm trading rest with a heads up and offer to let them sleep through the night because that often works best for everyone. If I'm with based guys, however, I am always prepared to work on HKG time because that is my base. Being a commuter isn't an excuse for that, in my opinion.
Am I out of line in my way of thinking?
From my perspective, it is very appreciated to receive a heads up from the CN regarding rest.
I am a commuter to HKG and as such it is easy for me fly through the night if I stay on my home time instead of moving over to Hong Kong time. I always try to give whoever I'm trading rest with a heads up and offer to let them sleep through the night because that often works best for everyone. If I'm with based guys, however, I am always prepared to work on HKG time because that is my base. Being a commuter isn't an excuse for that, in my opinion.
Am I out of line in my way of thinking?
