Thanks ...

[St_Paul_Island]

Thank you to the 48 who recently knocked back jobs with CX "until the recruitment ban was over". Only two accepted jobs. This must have been a very difficult decision for anyone to make, but shows the depth of feeling and support out there.

I know this thread will be hijacked by CX union busters - sorry, should I call you Freehills, now that we know who you are? - but I hope enough of you who refused jobs will read this message to know that you, and your names, are known. This will be over by summer's end. By then you should have a contract worth signing, and no problems with either recruitment or training.

It is no surprise that the Australians have learnt from the example of the scabs down there who cannot find any other jobs.

The AOA has supported many other airline unions' bans in the past, and they have all been recruitment bans, same as this one. The 49ers will be re-established with no loss of seniority. The recruitment ban is effective because CX cannot find enough pilots to crew the reduced fleet as it is, let alone enough to bring aircraft out of the desert or expand. It is a remarkably effective tool.

OK, naysayers, go ahead and shoot the messenger. I shall take great pleasure knowing that every response you make brings this heartfelt thanks to the top. They deserve recognition, even though you will try to drag them down.

[MT Edelstone56]

Was in Honkers recently with a couple of exAnsett mates searching for work.

I wouldn`t cross your picket line given the opportunity.

My mate,unemployed,selected for CX wont either.

A round of beer in HK is about a weeks unemployments benefit in Oz.Buy him a beer next time.

Good luck gentleman.

[BMM389EC]

St_Paul_Island, where do you get your information from? I know of more than two who have said yes.
I really hope you are for real. I am one of those who said no and have almost given up flying for Cathay. Have been told those who say no stand no chance in the future.Feel more and more like this oppurtunity is sailing off into the sunset! Leaving me with not many other options.

[St_Paul_Island]

I know of more than two who have said yes

My figures are what CX has from latest round. No idea what % that is of total contacted by CX since 9 July last year. It is affecting the ability to recruit, as they are already short of pilots and even now still have aircraft parked. Loads are around the 90% mark so it's not due to lack of passengers!

Of course they'll tell you that if you say no that will be it! They've spent years telling lies, what's a few more? Do you believe them? I don't. Other "expatriate" options are DragonAir and Emirates, both pay more and have much faster times to command. Emirates are hiring, DragonAir is about to. Those who've interviewed for DragonAir in the last few months should hear from them soon.

Don't forget Thai, Singapore, Malaysian, Brunie, Air New Guniea, South Pacific, Virgin brand X, Y and Z, Gulf Air, Kuwait, Saudia, Korean, JAL, Air Vietnam and probably a few dozen more. Anyone who claims that CX is the only airline in the entire world that will hire them is being unrealistic. If you applied to CX you must be eligible for at least a few of them - at least one I would hope! Otherwise you are saying that CX has the absolute lowest standards of experience in the entire world, which doesn't flatter you or us very much, does it?

[Wizofoz]

SPI,

Your organisation has put a great deal of effort into fighting for the 49ers, and for this I applaud you.

Can you tell me, concretely, what your association will do to secure employment for pilots who turn Cathay down in support of your ban?

It's all very well saying thanks to guys throwing away a huge carreer chance on your behalf, but will you show them the same loyalty as they have shown you and your wronged compatriots?

[St_Paul_Island]

The HKAOA has indeed in the past provided exactly the same support as it now is receiving. Recent "Requests for Mutual Assistance" responded to by the HKAOA include:

BeCA (Belgium) on behalf of Sabena - DAT - Sobelair;
US-ALPA on behalf of Atlas Airlines Inc (USA); and
Circulo de Pilotos de Chile (CPC).

There are many others, I can't be bothered to dig through them all.

Requests for mutual assistance typically include, amongst other things, an agreement to implement recruitment bans. This is seen by the international union movement as an effective industrial tool. Since the members of the HKAOA have helped other unions worldwide in this way for many years, it is only right and proper that they should receive such assistance in return.

Now some could argue that the participation in recruitment bans by the HKAOA in the past is of little moment, and had negligible effect, and so should be discounted. Such arguments cut both ways, however; if that is the case then the argument also applies to the current ban.

If you are a member of an IFALPA union then you are obliged to uphold the ban. If you are not a member you can make up your own mind.

It has also been argued that the recent joiners had to join because they were unemployed. This is untrue. Not one recent joiner to CX was unemployed. Out of all the airlines in the world available to them, including remaining in their current jobs, they chose to join an airline (CX) under a recruitment ban.

Others claim that joining an airline is a one-off, do-it-now-of-forever-forsake-it, decision. That is also untrue. Amongst the 100,000+ jobs in aviation, there is never a time when each and every one is closed to you.

Those who recently joined? Their decision. They can expect that such lack of concern for pilots who really are unemployed - the 49ers - will be reciprocated should they ever find themselves in need of assistance.

The answer to your question Wizofoz, is that the HKAOA provides assistance to fellow union members. They are not an employment agency. You are expected to find your own jobs. However, people on this web site, such as myself, have been highlighting the many options available to you. You may find on this site reams of information and advice on joining a huge number of airlines. Such jobs may be temporary or permament; they can be stepping stones to CX in future years or to some other airline you decide to go for in the future.

We all expect to have a career flying for 30 to 40 years. Every pilot in the world is going to change employers at some stage. You will be judged each and every time on your past professional actions. Never expect a job to be permanent - ask those who've recently been furloughed. Why risk a permanent black mark against your name by joining under a ban when there are so many other options available?

[Wizofoz]

SPI,

I have a job and have no intention of joining Cathay with or without a ban.

My question was in response to the inferance in your first post that anyone turning down employment with Cathay could expect to be employed by them once the ban is lifted. I was wondering on what basis you made that inferance.

It would now seem from your reply that you made it out of pure wishful thinking to encourage support for your ban.

Yes there are many Airlines in the world. Right now very few of them are recruiting, and all have an over supply of applicants. There can be little doubt that some pilots turning down Cathay, either out of principle or out of fear of intimidation, will be surrendering their only chance of a job with a major airline. How many airlines have you been accepted by?

And for this sacrifice they will recieve your heartfelt thanks, and precious little else.

[Freehills]

Someone called?

[St_Paul_Island]

Well, I've re-read my first post, and I see no such inference. What about it is wishful thinking? It says what it says. It was a genuine thank you.

Congratulations on being the first to fulfill the prophecy mentioned in the fifth paragraph.

[Mark Six]

SPI, I support what you guys are doing and wish you every success....but....Wizofoz has asked a perfectly valid question which deserves a better answer than the one you gave. In your first post you said "- but I hope enough of you who refused jobs will read this message to know that you, and your names, are known. This will be over by summer's end. By then you should have a contract worth signing, and no problems with either recruitment or training." If that's not an inference that these pilots will be given jobs once the ban is over, then I don't know what is. It is a valid question-what will the union do once the hiring ban is over, to specifically help those pilots who have rejected job offers?

[Goondiwindi]

I don't think the Union can do anything directly to help someone get employed once that person has turned down a job quoting the ban as his/her reason. I do think that good potential employees will be contacted again after this is over and offered their job again. I am not in a position to promise that and nor is the Union. But, if you're worth your salt, you'll get asked again. Contrary to popular opinion, there are not too many high calibre pilots out there at the moment. However, I think the rewards for the person that turns down a job are twofold, direct and indirect.
The direct reward is that said person will be able to join any IFALPA Union in the world and receive the benefits thereof, which could include an employment ban should the chosen job be one where his Union is targetted for a "bust".
The indirect reward is that of being able to face yourself in the mirror for the rest of your life and know that you have done the right thing. If you give yourself any credit for having a conscience then you'll understand what I mean. If not, then you're a lost cause as far as I'm concerned.
I speak as a 49er. I am exceptionally respectful of and grateful to everyone that supports this ban. I believe that it will be the tool that ultimately gets our jobs and lives back.

Those that supported us will not be forgotten.

Those that broke the ban WILL be remembered.

[Wizofoz]

Goondiwindi,

I totaly sympathise with your position and truly believe that you do not deserve your current situation.

You are, however, asking people to support your position by turning down a job you obviously desperatley want back. Saint Paul Islands solution for these people has been "Go and join Emirates/Gulf/Singapore etc. etc." Is not that option open to you? If not, you must see the untenability of his position. Not all jobs are going to be open to all people. If you win, pilots are going to have given away their chance to work for Cathay, whilst you will regain your job, and for their sacrifice will get a heartfelt "Thanks" from you from your chair in an Airliner. If your efforts are in vain, BOTH of you will have lost the chance to work for Cathay. I think it is grossly unfair to load the responsibility for your troubles on the shoulders of young aspirants, just as desperate as you to work for a major airline, and then use (not very) veiled threats to intimidate them into your point of view.

How would you have felt if, as a young pilot just given the chance to join Cathay, someone older, richer, and with much more salable qualifications had instructed you to turn down the chance, because he didn't like the way the company had treated him?

[411A]

Getting jobs "back" for the 49+....not in your collective lifetimes.
And a "shortage" of qualified guys....in your dreams.
Come to think of it, that's all the AOA has...dreams.

[Nice Wing]

If the 49 (48) pilots fired do not get their jobs back, then you have done yourself a favour by not going to Cathay. You will thank the union someday when you have a decent job and the sods at CX continue to get shafted.

[cuboardman]

To all concerned, I am one that recently said no to cx.
Current status , unemployed and getting more uncurrent everyday, however a number of short term options are coming to fro. Yes there is more than one job out there, but not the one I want. Lucky in two senses; have the right endorsement and have a big fat redundancy to live off for a while. But some people dont have the luxury that I have , given different curcumstances I may have been forced to say different. Add big mortgage, kids, wrong endorsement and the answer would have been different. A basic survival instinct comes before loyalty to a union. A good man becomes a scab ???? I know one that said yes, and he really is forced to . If the world excess is slowly absorbed as it seems it will, then no probs, but if not then more will cross as their situ changes. The union has bought some time but thats about it.
Frankg : its a bit hard to aviod the qu when asked directly:are you are willing to defy the ban.

[Wizofoz]

411a,

I am attempting to have a reasoned arguement with people I respect but disagree with. Your vitriolic tosh is neither helpful nor welcome.

Butt out.

To all at Cathay, there have now been posts from a small number of the many who are turning down the chance at a secure future because of your problems. They now outnumber the 49 you are trying to help. Obviously you put the rights of your members ahead of the welfare of other proffestional pilots, yet expect them to make sacrifices in support of your cause. You then have the temeritty to threaten sanctions against those that refuse to burn themselves in support of people in a more privilaged position than them. Will your association pay the wages of an unemployed pilot that STAYS unemployed because of your ban? Of course not...not one of us, not our problem. But he better do what you say in any case, or else.

Can you honestley say the welfare of aspiring pilots played any part in your decistion to instigate this ban?

[411A]

Of course not.....only to intimidate others....and to accept upgrades at the expense of their dismissed "brothers".
Clearly CX management has seen thru this facade, and have no real reason to give in now.

[ironbutt57]

The only people getting shafted besides the 49-ers are the folks who valiantly passed up employment with cx because of the ban....by them a beer?....how about sharing your paycheck with them since they are supporting you selfish morons.....how about some sort of union support for their employment with cx after the ban ends.....poor silly sods

[Goondiwindi]

Wizofoz

1. I'm not instructing people to hold off joining CX. IFALPA are telling.

2. How do you know that I'm not a young guy that's been fired within a few years of joining? Guys were fired from 2 - 22+ years seniority.

3. I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. No one in HKAOA or IFALPA is threatening anyone. I think you'll find most of that comes from the company itself.

4. I would like my job back, you're right. Would you not if you'd been sacked without just cause? Or are you another one that believes "we must have deserved it"?

5. How do you know that I have not tried to get another job? I applied to 2 airlines within a week of being sacked (and others since) and have good reason to believe that they won't take me because CX have told other airlines not to take 49ers. Is that fair?

6. Underneath it all, I believe that this is a moral issue and if people wish to join now then they are probably beyond having the reasons behind the ban explained to them. However, once the HKAOA wins this dispute the airline will be a much better one to work for. It will be there for these guys in a few months. Have a bit of patience. If the cause is lost, then you'll all have a much better life and possibly even a career with a contract that means something more than the paper that it's written on if you join all these other airlines that you've mentioned.

7. The over-riding fact that makes me know that the Union is doing the right thing in this regard in particular is that I know the management don't like the ban.

Good luck to you all whichever way you jump.

I don't fancy your social life if you break the ban. And that's not a threat, it's a fact!

[ironbutt57]

cuboardman....at least you had the honesty to spell things out the way they are for you, and to also say things might have been different if your family needs were more pressing....now you need to call in your markers from the hkaoa people who you have made a great sacrifice to career wise....lets see how much support you get.....glad to see at least the family comes first....