Direct Entry Hiring
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Hihi,
CB has been very clear and lucid in his explanations....you on the other hand continue to offer us nothing but your petulance. He is also a proven commodity who has made the grade, at a time when doing so actually required certain character traits.
I fear that you represent the bottom of the barrel some airlines seem content in scraping to find recruits at the least cost.
But I should fear not, Cathay still has certain character standards and a first rate training department, outside the reach of the bean counters, that will weed out the likes of you.
So please return to your video games.....you've outstayed your welcome here. This is the Professional Pilots Rumor Network....
CB has been very clear and lucid in his explanations....you on the other hand continue to offer us nothing but your petulance. He is also a proven commodity who has made the grade, at a time when doing so actually required certain character traits.
I fear that you represent the bottom of the barrel some airlines seem content in scraping to find recruits at the least cost.
But I should fear not, Cathay still has certain character standards and a first rate training department, outside the reach of the bean counters, that will weed out the likes of you.
So please return to your video games.....you've outstayed your welcome here. This is the Professional Pilots Rumor Network....
Join Date: May 2003
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This whole thread is about a bunch of bitter B scalers who want someone to blame about the reduction in T&C and dump that on the poor sods who currently only have the option of C scale. No doubt if the forum was around back early 90's when B scale was first muted, and let's not forget B scale plus, those who turned it down would be whining at those who took it.
This is CX, it is every man for himself and guys will do/take whatever they feel is best for them. Freighter command, same job for less money. How in the fu*k can having smaller numbers on your pay packet be a good thing. Simple according to the AOA, it suits guys who don't want to be paid very much but who want a command. Can't argue with that.
It has been seen again and again. The only way to up C scale is if those already in CX say no new joiners on any package but the current B scale one. Not in a zillion billion years will anyone presently employed by the company collectively take that stand. The A scalers tried.
The hypocrisy is unbelievable, CB how can you go on and on about a job that you happily turned down, let it the fu*k go. Life is too short.
This is CX, it is every man for himself and guys will do/take whatever they feel is best for them. Freighter command, same job for less money. How in the fu*k can having smaller numbers on your pay packet be a good thing. Simple according to the AOA, it suits guys who don't want to be paid very much but who want a command. Can't argue with that.
It has been seen again and again. The only way to up C scale is if those already in CX say no new joiners on any package but the current B scale one. Not in a zillion billion years will anyone presently employed by the company collectively take that stand. The A scalers tried.
The hypocrisy is unbelievable, CB how can you go on and on about a job that you happily turned down, let it the fu*k go. Life is too short.
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Differences between A to B and B to C
Those joining on B scales were joining on a package that still provided a very decent living in HKG. A scalers knew this. The same cannot be said for C scale. Everyone knows this...except those joining, but they will very soon...
A scale was an above market rate pay package. The same cannot be said for the current B scale package which is at best market rate. C scale is well below market rate when considering the cost of living in HKG. Just ask the current CEP/LEP group.
B scale still attracted a very capable pool of applicants. C scale has attracted a vast pool of zero experience applicants with a smattering of under qualified pilots with some flight experience. Most would not have qualified under the old DESO program and certainly not as DEFOs.
So I think we all need to admit that A to B is not anything like the current move from B to C. Those who think it is the same are only fooling themselves to their own detriment.
A scale was an above market rate pay package. The same cannot be said for the current B scale package which is at best market rate. C scale is well below market rate when considering the cost of living in HKG. Just ask the current CEP/LEP group.
B scale still attracted a very capable pool of applicants. C scale has attracted a vast pool of zero experience applicants with a smattering of under qualified pilots with some flight experience. Most would not have qualified under the old DESO program and certainly not as DEFOs.
So I think we all need to admit that A to B is not anything like the current move from B to C. Those who think it is the same are only fooling themselves to their own detriment.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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HiHi
More petulance.....?
CB is 100% right about you. What kind of upside down universe do you live in?
The substance of my arguements lad (or is it Lassie?) are based on my experience after nearly 40 years of flying and 22,000 hours. Your peevish viewpoint, on the other hand, is based on the "aeronautical" licernce you bragged about holding. You're an amateur.......
Substantive enough for you?
More petulance.....?
CB is 100% right about you. What kind of upside down universe do you live in?
The substance of my arguements lad (or is it Lassie?) are based on my experience after nearly 40 years of flying and 22,000 hours. Your peevish viewpoint, on the other hand, is based on the "aeronautical" licernce you bragged about holding. You're an amateur.......
Substantive enough for you?
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Cxorcist, it's not about the dollars being paid or the benefits granted, it's about the principle. By your logic, it is ok to sell out your peers for the right price? That is a poor excuse if i ever heard one.
Raven, for all your experience you still fail to contribute anything of worth. Your licenses, ratings and hours mean little here. This is an internet forum, not a cockpit. Step up, provide a worthy argument, and genuinely rebut what you don't agree with, or f*ck off.
Raven, for all your experience you still fail to contribute anything of worth. Your licenses, ratings and hours mean little here. This is an internet forum, not a cockpit. Step up, provide a worthy argument, and genuinely rebut what you don't agree with, or f*ck off.
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Hihi......
How do I even begin to respond to such a classless remark? Is using profanity your method of "stepping up and providing a worthy argument"..? You really are a tasteless little fellow.
But let me see if I understand you...you told us in an earlier post that you held an "aeronautical rating". As if that somehow qualified you to engage in a debate on this Airline Pilot's forum, aptly called the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. But then you posted that my "licenses, ratings and hours mean little here".
Hmmmmm.....my licenses, ratings, and hours mean nothing on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network...but your amateur aeronautical rating does.
Wow....
How do I even begin to respond to such a classless remark? Is using profanity your method of "stepping up and providing a worthy argument"..? You really are a tasteless little fellow.
But let me see if I understand you...you told us in an earlier post that you held an "aeronautical rating". As if that somehow qualified you to engage in a debate on this Airline Pilot's forum, aptly called the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. But then you posted that my "licenses, ratings and hours mean little here".
Hmmmmm.....my licenses, ratings, and hours mean nothing on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network...but your amateur aeronautical rating does.
Wow....
In related news...
Jetstar has recently had to raise its DEFO salary offer from an initial lowball offer (even though Australia and New Zealand have plenty of pilots meeting their hiring minimums). Lack of interest perhaps?
There has also been a recent Australian Government inquiry looking into Jetstar's plans to employ heavily indebted and indentured 200hr cadet pilots on salaries substantially lower than current FO rates. A resulting recommendation from the enquiry voted against this practice, which is now being further investigated for possible legislation changes. This is happening because voices within the Australian aviation industry, with the help of a conscientious senator, spoke loudly enough to be heard.
It takes time, but pilots (current and aspiring alike) don't have to roll over and accept whatever deal the bean counters throw at them.
Jetstar has recently had to raise its DEFO salary offer from an initial lowball offer (even though Australia and New Zealand have plenty of pilots meeting their hiring minimums). Lack of interest perhaps?
There has also been a recent Australian Government inquiry looking into Jetstar's plans to employ heavily indebted and indentured 200hr cadet pilots on salaries substantially lower than current FO rates. A resulting recommendation from the enquiry voted against this practice, which is now being further investigated for possible legislation changes. This is happening because voices within the Australian aviation industry, with the help of a conscientious senator, spoke loudly enough to be heard.
It takes time, but pilots (current and aspiring alike) don't have to roll over and accept whatever deal the bean counters throw at them.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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The real losers here will be the traveling public and ultimately the CX shareholders. I have nothing but contempt and pity for the new hires and the new trainers. If you are a prospective newhire, have you really comprehended the dire situation you will find yourselves in once you have moved to HK. Be under no illusion that you will be living the life of indentured servitude. You will find yourself living a hand to mouth existence with a growing sense of bitterness and despair. You will realise that you accepted a foolish and crippling contract and that you are no better than slave labour. As for the the new trainers. What do you think you are doing? Do you really believe that you are accomplishing anything other than helping undermine your own career salary and benefits? You are truly the 'greater fools'. I will have nothing but contempt for you. At least we will all know your names. Hide your heads in shame please. Don't complain if CX reduces your pay and benefits in the next few years as they manage to start staffing with the D scalers you helped train. How on earth can you be so blind as to not see that you are being played for the 'village idiots' that you are. I hope you choke on your new 'titles'. A line check from you will be a joke. I hope you feel the contempt emanating from everyone of us. How desperate are you to join the training department at this crucial juncture? Pathetic, truly pathetic!
Join Date: Aug 2008
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ATY,
Very well said!
Hihi,
Since when is it not about the money? Are you telling me that you are joining out of principle? Not sure what world you are living in, but in the real world one usually gets what is paid for. In the case of you and your peers, CX is not paying very much and WE are not getting much in return.
Do you think existing CX pilots want to worry every time we use the lav on a long haul? Do you think we will be better off not being able to take controlled rest in the seat on the back of the clock? Do you think we relish having to tell you "not to touch anything until I get back"? Do you think you will be respected as aviators worthy of flying wide-body aircraft across oceans?
The truth is that cadets have much higher command failure rates and take many more sectors accomplishing their JFO upgrades. This is due to inexperience before they joined CX. Growing up in a Cathay Petri Dish is not the best way to become a competent aviator. There are literally hundreds of hours of nothingness for every real learning opportunity.
Some will perform well due to hard work, determination, and talent. But many will fail because there was no previous experience to weed out the weak swimmers. Cathay is not the right place for this to occur because there are commercial pressures which will force some through. Then, as ATY said, CX passengers and shareholders will be the real losers. I would add CX employees to that list since we are all stakeholders in the airline.
Very well said!
Hihi,
Since when is it not about the money? Are you telling me that you are joining out of principle? Not sure what world you are living in, but in the real world one usually gets what is paid for. In the case of you and your peers, CX is not paying very much and WE are not getting much in return.
Do you think existing CX pilots want to worry every time we use the lav on a long haul? Do you think we will be better off not being able to take controlled rest in the seat on the back of the clock? Do you think we relish having to tell you "not to touch anything until I get back"? Do you think you will be respected as aviators worthy of flying wide-body aircraft across oceans?
The truth is that cadets have much higher command failure rates and take many more sectors accomplishing their JFO upgrades. This is due to inexperience before they joined CX. Growing up in a Cathay Petri Dish is not the best way to become a competent aviator. There are literally hundreds of hours of nothingness for every real learning opportunity.
Some will perform well due to hard work, determination, and talent. But many will fail because there was no previous experience to weed out the weak swimmers. Cathay is not the right place for this to occur because there are commercial pressures which will force some through. Then, as ATY said, CX passengers and shareholders will be the real losers. I would add CX employees to that list since we are all stakeholders in the airline.
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DB-
Online behavior is often not very indicative of how we'd all act in person. It is all too easy to make pratts of ourselves behind the veil of anonymity. However, you are correct that there is no place for remarks such as i made earlier, and for that i do apologize. Raven, what i should have said is that i do have the upmost respect for your accomplishments, and in the cockpit i'd not question your contribution. However, on PPrune you can't substitute your seniority in place of an argument.
This whole argument is a bit off track, and i'll stop now as instead of making a point, i'm only making enemies.
In closing, i don't think the i-cadets are to blame for lowering the T&C's. That has already happened once before, and it'll probably happen again further down the track (look at how bad regional pilots in the States have it). As for the lowering of standards, i guess we'll find out what effects that'll have in the long run.
Online behavior is often not very indicative of how we'd all act in person. It is all too easy to make pratts of ourselves behind the veil of anonymity. However, you are correct that there is no place for remarks such as i made earlier, and for that i do apologize. Raven, what i should have said is that i do have the upmost respect for your accomplishments, and in the cockpit i'd not question your contribution. However, on PPrune you can't substitute your seniority in place of an argument.
This whole argument is a bit off track, and i'll stop now as instead of making a point, i'm only making enemies.
In closing, i don't think the i-cadets are to blame for lowering the T&C's. That has already happened once before, and it'll probably happen again further down the track (look at how bad regional pilots in the States have it). As for the lowering of standards, i guess we'll find out what effects that'll have in the long run.
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Hihi,
I did not miss your point. You are trying to conclude that those who took B scale somehow sold out A scale. I'm not sure you could find an A scaler who agrees. If anything, A scalers let down B scalers and themselves by allowing the introduction of a separate payscale in '94. It has been all downhill from then.
Nobody is accusing you of selling us out. You are selling yourselves and this profession out. You are bringing an insufficient skillset and selling it very cheaply because that is all it is worth. The profession and the flying public deserve better, and there is a whole generation of prospective direct entry qualified pilots out there who miss an opportunity because of CX's shortsightedness.
Hihi, you and your peers are not the problem. You are a symptom of the problem which is being self inflicted by CX. Don't take it personally. You are simply unqualified, and four plus years as an SO will do little to change that.
CXorcist
I did not miss your point. You are trying to conclude that those who took B scale somehow sold out A scale. I'm not sure you could find an A scaler who agrees. If anything, A scalers let down B scalers and themselves by allowing the introduction of a separate payscale in '94. It has been all downhill from then.
Nobody is accusing you of selling us out. You are selling yourselves and this profession out. You are bringing an insufficient skillset and selling it very cheaply because that is all it is worth. The profession and the flying public deserve better, and there is a whole generation of prospective direct entry qualified pilots out there who miss an opportunity because of CX's shortsightedness.
Hihi, you and your peers are not the problem. You are a symptom of the problem which is being self inflicted by CX. Don't take it personally. You are simply unqualified, and four plus years as an SO will do little to change that.
CXorcist
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Some very good posts gentlemen....
Cxorcist, you are absolutely right when you said "If anything, A scalers let down B scalers and themselves by allowing the introduction of a separate payscale in '94. It has been all downhill from then."
I'm living proof of that. As an A scaler I now understand that we should have done something more back in 93. How successful we would have been is pure conjecture. We were facing a management that put a gun to our heads and was spoiling for a fight...we finally stood up to them in 99...shortly after which they fired 49 of our friends and colleagues.
My hope today is that market forces; and legislative IATA/ICAO/CAD initiatives to not allow low time, heavily indebted and indentured 200hr cadet pilots on salaries substantially lower than current FO rates (as Gligg stated) force them to rethink their hiring policy . Safety is their number one concern after all......
Cxorcist, you are absolutely right when you said "If anything, A scalers let down B scalers and themselves by allowing the introduction of a separate payscale in '94. It has been all downhill from then."
I'm living proof of that. As an A scaler I now understand that we should have done something more back in 93. How successful we would have been is pure conjecture. We were facing a management that put a gun to our heads and was spoiling for a fight...we finally stood up to them in 99...shortly after which they fired 49 of our friends and colleagues.
My hope today is that market forces; and legislative IATA/ICAO/CAD initiatives to not allow low time, heavily indebted and indentured 200hr cadet pilots on salaries substantially lower than current FO rates (as Gligg stated) force them to rethink their hiring policy . Safety is their number one concern after all......
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Be clear gentlemen. It's not the fault of the 0 time pilot trying to make a career in the world that your terms and conditions are deteriorating. It's your fault for allowing these terms to be implemented by your bosses. You have the power, they don't. Your expecting them to turn down basically a guaranteed ab initio program so you can stay fat and happy? Give me a break. Talk about misguided. It's your job to stand up, not them. They are the young ones looking forward... You are the spineless idiots looking backward. Stop expecting your kids to fight your battles for you.
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Be clear gentlemen. It's not the fault of the 0 time pilot trying to make a career in the world that your terms and conditions are deteriorating. It's your fault for allowing these terms to be implemented by your bosses. You have the power, they don't. Your expecting them to turn down basically a guaranteed ab initio program so you can stay fat and happy? Give me a break. Talk about misguided. It's your job to stand up, not them. They are the young ones looking forward... You are the spineless idiots looking backward. Stop expecting your kids to fight your battles for you.
EXACTLY.
No one now is willing to knock off one of the board to prove the point.
Thats how unions used to work. They used force till they got political will.
Right now all the unions can threaten is to say stop or they'll say stop again.
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Widecut,
Before the Cadet program was opened up to international applicants, it was only available to Hong Kong residents with HKID cards. The majority of the Cadets that I know all lived in a family home with the rest of their family. Many couldn't afford to live on their own until they were on a decent FO scale.
Not a good comparison...
Before the Cadet program was opened up to international applicants, it was only available to Hong Kong residents with HKID cards. The majority of the Cadets that I know all lived in a family home with the rest of their family. Many couldn't afford to live on their own until they were on a decent FO scale.
Not a good comparison...
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First Post
New joiner to PPRUNE I see Widecut. Funny isn't it how some people post such eloquent pro-company posts as their opening contribution.
Flaps 10 almost has it right, except:
In fact, there are more than a few local FOs who are still living with family.
The reason for employing expats is to take advantage of their experience. Asking someone to move their family internationally is no small thing, and the expat package makes that transition smoother.
More appropriately, the question should be: How many expat jobs in Hong Kong offer some form of living assistance (in forms such as housing, medical, schooling etc)?
Thinking of the expats I know, such as bankers, accountants, lawyers and the like, I would say most, if not all.
Flaps 10 almost has it right, except:
Many couldn't afford to live on their own until they were on a decent FO scale
How many pilot jobs these days offer housing allowance?
More appropriately, the question should be: How many expat jobs in Hong Kong offer some form of living assistance (in forms such as housing, medical, schooling etc)?
Thinking of the expats I know, such as bankers, accountants, lawyers and the like, I would say most, if not all.