Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks
You graduate from University, employment prospects are OK. But you see the CPP, the money after graduating and completing your sim training is double what your peers from University are earning, and the biggest bonus is you have over $1,000,000 invested in you by your employer!!! You say screw the housing, child education, where do I sign.
After 8 years your university peers are still playing catchup, but you no longer look at them as your equivalent, you look at the expatriates now. They earn housing, they get child education, why can't I?
Well there is a thing called a contract, unfortunately it doesn't allow for this. You get angry and call the press, they are discriminating against us!!!!!! Your employer digs their heels in, status quo is maintained.
What next? Well maybe like every other expatriate who didn't like their last contract, they packed up and went in search of the golden goose. Some found it in the middle east, others found it in the far east. To all the locals who don't like their contract, go look for a golden goose!!!!
After 8 years your university peers are still playing catchup, but you no longer look at them as your equivalent, you look at the expatriates now. They earn housing, they get child education, why can't I?
Well there is a thing called a contract, unfortunately it doesn't allow for this. You get angry and call the press, they are discriminating against us!!!!!! Your employer digs their heels in, status quo is maintained.
What next? Well maybe like every other expatriate who didn't like their last contract, they packed up and went in search of the golden goose. Some found it in the middle east, others found it in the far east. To all the locals who don't like their contract, go look for a golden goose!!!!
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And in case some of you might wanna know, all of this would NOT affect me at all as HKG is not in my long term plans. I'm merely speaking out of support for the minority group and wish they could ultimately get treated fairly and equally.
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Just so it's absolutely clear;
If LEPs are awarded expat housing levels, it follows that based crews will be entitled as well. Rental prices in central London and New York don't differentiate much from Hong Kong. Cathay knows this, and so does the AOA.
This one's gonna get messy.
If LEPs are awarded expat housing levels, it follows that based crews will be entitled as well. Rental prices in central London and New York don't differentiate much from Hong Kong. Cathay knows this, and so does the AOA.
This one's gonna get messy.
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CXchild,
I am actually all for CEP's getting a housing allowance but with the attitude you displayed in your previous post you are not doing yourself or your cause any favours.
Attacking the other pilot groups is not the way to go about this.
I have flown with many "expat" CEP's and agree that they should be entitled to a housing allowance at some point. That point used to be on achieving Command but now that RA65 has put that back I think it is reasonable to link it to years of service. Maybe we could average out the total years of service it has taken CEP's to attain command and use that point as the qualification point.
I am actually all for CEP's getting a housing allowance but with the attitude you displayed in your previous post you are not doing yourself or your cause any favours.
Attacking the other pilot groups is not the way to go about this.
I have flown with many "expat" CEP's and agree that they should be entitled to a housing allowance at some point. That point used to be on achieving Command but now that RA65 has put that back I think it is reasonable to link it to years of service. Maybe we could average out the total years of service it has taken CEP's to attain command and use that point as the qualification point.
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We have some major changes coming and I congratulate the LEP's for going for a contract change just do not ask me to support it at the detriment of my contract which is how it looks to me?
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It's been messy for a long time already.
Guys, CEPs are not asking anyone to support something in detriment to their own T&Cs. The CEPs are not asking any expats to lift a finger for this fight.....honestly, given the track record of that relationship, CEPs would be fools to expect it. What I think is a travesty though, is hearing even a minor few wanting to keep the next guy beneath them, because what.....they didn't have to go through the exact same interview process? Alright, try doing a 5 stage interview process followed by a 14 month CX review and see how well you all come out of that one....complete a full HKCAD dinosaur ATPL in 8 weeks, then a jet sim loft check in a generic 737 after 2 wholly fruitful weeks of tuition. By the way, no guarantee of employment either at the end of it all which is a common myth. Oh, forgot about having to be to the same standard as the next guy for checks. Silly me, where's my head. And starting out Cat C S/O not Cat B, thereby having to wait a whole 'nother year for upgrade. Tell that to the GFS cadet guy with more blade time than most of us have spent holding a knife over every meal we've had our entire lives, BBQs not included.
But entry standards aside, if those of you who truly do have consequential concerns with locals fighting for a better contract, lodge your complaints with the AOA....or hell, step up to the plate and support the company's stance on the issue to protect yourself. That is the ultimate goal right? To protect yourself?
Tiger321, voice of reason, thank you. Though the CEPs are advocating the same idea based upon the recouping of finances and some interest gained from years of total service regardless of rank.
Guys, CEPs are not asking anyone to support something in detriment to their own T&Cs. The CEPs are not asking any expats to lift a finger for this fight.....honestly, given the track record of that relationship, CEPs would be fools to expect it. What I think is a travesty though, is hearing even a minor few wanting to keep the next guy beneath them, because what.....they didn't have to go through the exact same interview process? Alright, try doing a 5 stage interview process followed by a 14 month CX review and see how well you all come out of that one....complete a full HKCAD dinosaur ATPL in 8 weeks, then a jet sim loft check in a generic 737 after 2 wholly fruitful weeks of tuition. By the way, no guarantee of employment either at the end of it all which is a common myth. Oh, forgot about having to be to the same standard as the next guy for checks. Silly me, where's my head. And starting out Cat C S/O not Cat B, thereby having to wait a whole 'nother year for upgrade. Tell that to the GFS cadet guy with more blade time than most of us have spent holding a knife over every meal we've had our entire lives, BBQs not included.
But entry standards aside, if those of you who truly do have consequential concerns with locals fighting for a better contract, lodge your complaints with the AOA....or hell, step up to the plate and support the company's stance on the issue to protect yourself. That is the ultimate goal right? To protect yourself?
Tiger321, voice of reason, thank you. Though the CEPs are advocating the same idea based upon the recouping of finances and some interest gained from years of total service regardless of rank.
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quadspeed
Good point, that concern was brought up and the angle of the CEPs argument is that of base parity, i.e. people who serve in SFO get SFO package, MEL get MEL package, HKG get HKG package. Across the board, parity on base.
I will get whatever that base has to offer when I get out of HKG (if there are any basing slots left in future when I can finally make a move!) as will any other person leaving HKG. HKG is the only base I can think of that has such a highly diversified contractual remuneration package, someone correct me if I'm wrong. So I think the argument is more about leveling the playing field, when you're in the same field.
Though if the based guys are out to fight for better terms and conditions justifiably, then I'm right behind them, they will get my vote 100%.
Good point, that concern was brought up and the angle of the CEPs argument is that of base parity, i.e. people who serve in SFO get SFO package, MEL get MEL package, HKG get HKG package. Across the board, parity on base.
I will get whatever that base has to offer when I get out of HKG (if there are any basing slots left in future when I can finally make a move!) as will any other person leaving HKG. HKG is the only base I can think of that has such a highly diversified contractual remuneration package, someone correct me if I'm wrong. So I think the argument is more about leveling the playing field, when you're in the same field.
Though if the based guys are out to fight for better terms and conditions justifiably, then I'm right behind them, they will get my vote 100%.
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Has there ever been an expatriot on the float? How come only the CEP's only get asked to float. Thats a bit racist isn't it? I'm sure its great fun... go on volunteer, bring back the love.
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I think what the CEPs are arguing is that different people on the same base (In this case HKG) have different packages. For the case of overseas basings, everyone is employed by a shelf company and on the same conditions. If say half of people on the Vancouver base got housing and the other half did not then yes that is discrimination.
It would be great if everyone got housing everywhere. At Cathay we are all separated into different groups with different interests. Unfortunately the way things improve is for those groups to fight for improvements. Unfortunately one group will rarely help to support, or even care much about the gripes of the other group. Now it is the locals turn to argue their demands and instead of support or even being indifferent to it, you all jump up and down about something that does not even concern you? We are our worst enemy we really are. It is no surprise our conditions never improve and the way we beat each other up perhaps that is what we deserve.
It would be great if everyone got housing everywhere. At Cathay we are all separated into different groups with different interests. Unfortunately the way things improve is for those groups to fight for improvements. Unfortunately one group will rarely help to support, or even care much about the gripes of the other group. Now it is the locals turn to argue their demands and instead of support or even being indifferent to it, you all jump up and down about something that does not even concern you? We are our worst enemy we really are. It is no surprise our conditions never improve and the way we beat each other up perhaps that is what we deserve.
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Its simple they want a payrise good luck
If they want a payrise good luck but the truth is hard to swallow. It is not discriminatory just like paying A scale B scale freighter scale, are we not all doing the same job??
Stop the crap, if you guys and girls feel so strongly about it then go for it but all I see from a public perception is sour grapes about signing a contract that you now think is beneath you?? I could also say this is just a nice decoy from our DFO to focus on in the up coming housing talks but that would be too clever?? Well I want my A scale pay and my 13 month back on a base that was taken in 99 so yeah I am with you lets all join hands and sing I can see the light.................... nope its just a train!
Stop the crap, if you guys and girls feel so strongly about it then go for it but all I see from a public perception is sour grapes about signing a contract that you now think is beneath you?? I could also say this is just a nice decoy from our DFO to focus on in the up coming housing talks but that would be too clever?? Well I want my A scale pay and my 13 month back on a base that was taken in 99 so yeah I am with you lets all join hands and sing I can see the light.................... nope its just a train!
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CX exploits Hong Kong
I am a holder of a Hong Kong permanent ID card and was offered a Direct Entry position with Cathay Pacific back in 2007. At the time I had over 5000 total hours with 1500 hrs command on a B767.
I was offered Local terms. So it does not matter whether you have 0 hours or thousands of hours, CX will discriminate and pay Hong Kongers less to do the same job.
The Cathay Pacific Group continues to earn it's money from Hong Kong (and exploit it) yet it does not even have the decency to provide it's citizens with well paid jobs.
CX is now hiring cadets from all over world citing that it is unable to recruit local pilots. Not true.
There are many Hong Kong pilots flying overseas that have the required experience and qualification to join Cathay Pacific, however as long as Cathay Pacific continues to discriminate against Hong Kong pilots/people by paying them virtually half the pay for the same job it will never attract any local talent whether experienced or not.
I was offered Local terms. So it does not matter whether you have 0 hours or thousands of hours, CX will discriminate and pay Hong Kongers less to do the same job.
The Cathay Pacific Group continues to earn it's money from Hong Kong (and exploit it) yet it does not even have the decency to provide it's citizens with well paid jobs.
CX is now hiring cadets from all over world citing that it is unable to recruit local pilots. Not true.
There are many Hong Kong pilots flying overseas that have the required experience and qualification to join Cathay Pacific, however as long as Cathay Pacific continues to discriminate against Hong Kong pilots/people by paying them virtually half the pay for the same job it will never attract any local talent whether experienced or not.
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But that's precisely it, we are all doing the same job. And yes CEPs feel that the contract is inadequate. And if you were to ever feel that B scale was beneath you and wanted to do something about it, I'm quite sure that you would get the support you needed from the CEP body because in the long run, it benefits us all. At the very least, I would imagine you would not be getting a public berating from fellow CEPs if you were trying to better your conditions if you had felt you had a justification for doing so.
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Hmmmm, call me a conspiracy theorist, but the timing of this is very suspect. Intreresting how this issue has erupted at the same moment that Nick places a cryptic comment in Crews News regarding housing and the definition of who qualifies as a 'local' (ie: who would not qualify for housing). It is obvious that CX are about to take a major run at the most sacrosanct item in our contracts, that of housing (and perhaps also the 'right of return to HK'). It would seem that generating a huge contoversy in respect of 'discrimination' (particularly if they couch it as local vs expat benefits) would suit the coming negotiations perfectly. CX could insist that in the 'interests of fairness', housing must now be seen to be 'equitable', but of course the budget could not be increased, blah, blah, blah... I suspect this is the first major attack designed to neuter expat benefits (for pilots only of course...don't expect to see this applied to management!). The AOA had better get their hardhats on....this one is going to get ugly. As for the CEP's, your arguement is false...but I do support you obtaining a significant pay rise instead. The housing arguement is simply disengenuous.
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What about same pay when they meet the minimum requirements to get the job in the first place? 1000 hours in command, pic doesnt count, all the "unwritten" experience requirements that get you an interview with CX or KA in the first place? Not an unfair situation when your training has been covered. Once you meet the minimum requirements that the expats get hired under, same pay. Might take a while to get that 1000 hours multi command though.
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Being the devils' advocate here:
I would rather have my basic package increased to my "basic + allowances" to allow me to what I want with the money. I'm being taxed on the housing allowance anyway but stuck with their arcane rules. A few (and we all know who) have fallen foul of the red tape and been terminated in a brutal and public fashion.
IF the Savills people at CX were done away with, there would be an immediate cost savings.
IF we were to get a basic increase it would satisfy the guys and girls on LEP T&C.
IF they paid a non-discriminatory package to all they (NR, TT et al) would be able to hold the moral high ground - an important position in the tough times that are bound to follow in the next decade or so.
IF they want to make CX a more attractive proposition for locals it would make a mediocre at best package seem a lot better. You attract more flies with honey...
IF they raised the basic package there would be more incentive for some to stay on bases.
They have had it so good for so long, even they can't believe their luck. I have heard (on more than one occasion) a smug suit bragging in the Gay Bar how they have not only been able to suppress pilot salaries for 15 years, but are able to attract more and more desperate types to HKG on steadily reducing packages. I had to leave when I heard that, BTW (for my own job longevity). I didn't fancy being another Darby M.
Just my .02c. Its' time for the AOA to come to the company with a dramatic and innovative approach to what is rapidly becoming a hot potato with Corporate Communications (even typing that title gets my BP rising).
WE (the pilots) Local and Expat are the solution.
I would rather have my basic package increased to my "basic + allowances" to allow me to what I want with the money. I'm being taxed on the housing allowance anyway but stuck with their arcane rules. A few (and we all know who) have fallen foul of the red tape and been terminated in a brutal and public fashion.
IF the Savills people at CX were done away with, there would be an immediate cost savings.
IF we were to get a basic increase it would satisfy the guys and girls on LEP T&C.
IF they paid a non-discriminatory package to all they (NR, TT et al) would be able to hold the moral high ground - an important position in the tough times that are bound to follow in the next decade or so.
IF they want to make CX a more attractive proposition for locals it would make a mediocre at best package seem a lot better. You attract more flies with honey...
IF they raised the basic package there would be more incentive for some to stay on bases.
They have had it so good for so long, even they can't believe their luck. I have heard (on more than one occasion) a smug suit bragging in the Gay Bar how they have not only been able to suppress pilot salaries for 15 years, but are able to attract more and more desperate types to HKG on steadily reducing packages. I had to leave when I heard that, BTW (for my own job longevity). I didn't fancy being another Darby M.
Just my .02c. Its' time for the AOA to come to the company with a dramatic and innovative approach to what is rapidly becoming a hot potato with Corporate Communications (even typing that title gets my BP rising).
WE (the pilots) Local and Expat are the solution.
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Underpants. Don't lose sight of the fact that this whole scenario is probably being orchestrated by CX. What better backdrop to negotiations with the AOA than that of the issue of 'fairness' and 'public concern' as to the 'discrimination' that the expat package represents to the 'people' of Hong Kong. No matter what is said, the day is surely coming where a bright red line will be crossed...then what will you (and we) do...?
