Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks
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lol
this thing is getting out of control
funny how this whole thread revolves around the same few people.
oh yeah....cxchildlabor....you are so brainwashed you are Beyond saving.
lets make this clear.
If you are from canada and get a job at Air Canada and live in Vancouver or toronto should you get housing? NO
If you are australian and get a job at qantas and live in brisbane should you get housing ? NO
If you are cadet from hong kong and get an airline to pay for 14 months of training to become a boeing/airbus pilot in adelaide, give you meals and accommodation while your there, and a job when you get back to hong kong in a widebody jet eating sandwiches and putting jepp charts away flying all over the world (while military or bush pilots never had anything like that) ...should you get housing?....according to guys like cxchildlabor....yes...according to everyone else NO NO NO NO
YOU WANT HOUSING ????
GO TO KINGFISHER ..live in india and get salary PLUS HOUSING
GO TO EMIRATES...live in the desert, get salary PLUS HOUSING
GO TO QATAR....live in the desert, get salary PLUS HOUSING
and as for the RACE CARD....you guys have opened pandoras box on that one,....get screwed on your rest....RACE CARD....lose a sector....RACE CARD.....blah blah blah
you ceps are so
spoiled its beyond belief....W A K E UP!!!
and lets face the facts,....some cadet pilots are very good,....but most of them are so far behind the airplane due to lack of experience it isn't funny.......
go ahead....let the crap fly....have you ever seen my name on this site before??? thats right.....i'm new....and i'm not posting anything else.....i just love stirring the pot especially when i see a pathetic low life like cxchildlabor who is probably just fuming now and won't be able to sleep until he posts some brilliant response.......lol
YOU DON'T DESERVE HOUSING
YOU DON'T DESERVE HOUSING
YOU D O N ' T D E S E R V E H O U S I N G
bye bye
funny how this whole thread revolves around the same few people.
oh yeah....cxchildlabor....you are so brainwashed you are Beyond saving.
lets make this clear.
If you are from canada and get a job at Air Canada and live in Vancouver or toronto should you get housing? NO
If you are australian and get a job at qantas and live in brisbane should you get housing ? NO
If you are cadet from hong kong and get an airline to pay for 14 months of training to become a boeing/airbus pilot in adelaide, give you meals and accommodation while your there, and a job when you get back to hong kong in a widebody jet eating sandwiches and putting jepp charts away flying all over the world (while military or bush pilots never had anything like that) ...should you get housing?....according to guys like cxchildlabor....yes...according to everyone else NO NO NO NO
YOU WANT HOUSING ????
GO TO KINGFISHER ..live in india and get salary PLUS HOUSING
GO TO EMIRATES...live in the desert, get salary PLUS HOUSING
GO TO QATAR....live in the desert, get salary PLUS HOUSING
and as for the RACE CARD....you guys have opened pandoras box on that one,....get screwed on your rest....RACE CARD....lose a sector....RACE CARD.....blah blah blah
you ceps are so
spoiled its beyond belief....W A K E UP!!!and lets face the facts,....some cadet pilots are very good,....but most of them are so far behind the airplane due to lack of experience it isn't funny.......
go ahead....let the crap fly....have you ever seen my name on this site before??? thats right.....i'm new....and i'm not posting anything else.....i just love stirring the pot especially when i see a pathetic low life like cxchildlabor who is probably just fuming now and won't be able to sleep until he posts some brilliant response.......lol
YOU DON'T DESERVE HOUSING
YOU DON'T DESERVE HOUSING
YOU D O N ' T D E S E R V E H O U S I N G
bye bye
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Liam,
No gonad shinkage here, except when I get cold. I just don't live in front of my computer like many of you guys choking away in the Hong Kong soup.
With regard to the race card and the charge of discrimintation, it is noted that not all permanent ID card holders are in fact Chinese. So in that respect, I stand corrected. However, I still think it is fair to call the CX status quo discrimination against those from Hong Kong - which is really the relevant issue here. Hong Kong is an international city with a diverse group calling it home. So it is wrong to dimantle a discrimination charge with what is really nothing more than a racial technicality.
The emergence of "international cadets" recently makes me wonder if the company did not catch onto this discrimination well ahead of the HKAOA. By recruiting and allowing those without permanent HKID cards to be cadets, CX can effectively diffuse the argument of discrimination against Hong Kong locals by showing that others groups are willing to accept the deal (although I suspect many will leave CX once they have gained the required experience).
For me, a relevant parallel is the recruitment of freigter DEFOs (FFOs) back on CoS99. Many pilots have been recruited directly onto bases to fly the freighter. They serve(d) a freighter commitment which was 36 months from initial line check or ... etc. After the freighter commitment, these pilots can take a passenger position and/or come to Hong Kong for the full expat package. This period can be looked at as a form of apprenticeship. Similarly, a CoS08 DEFO has to serve 4 years on the base until being eligible for return to Hong Kong. Again, this can be viewed as a period of appreniceship, although many will choose to remain on the base for longer due to lifestyle considerations.
The point is that all officers, except CEPs, have a mechanism for being able to achieve the full allowance package in Hong Kong. I do not think this is fair. I do believe it is discrimination. For those who brought up the issue of bonding or some type of payback for training, I think CEPs would be much better off if they had some way to pay back CX for their training, be it via years of service or money. It is unfair is to treat them like second class pilots for the duration of their careers because they started as a cadet from Hong Kong.
Now you may enlighten me with your omniscience...
cxorcist
No gonad shinkage here, except when I get cold. I just don't live in front of my computer like many of you guys choking away in the Hong Kong soup.
With regard to the race card and the charge of discrimintation, it is noted that not all permanent ID card holders are in fact Chinese. So in that respect, I stand corrected. However, I still think it is fair to call the CX status quo discrimination against those from Hong Kong - which is really the relevant issue here. Hong Kong is an international city with a diverse group calling it home. So it is wrong to dimantle a discrimination charge with what is really nothing more than a racial technicality.
The emergence of "international cadets" recently makes me wonder if the company did not catch onto this discrimination well ahead of the HKAOA. By recruiting and allowing those without permanent HKID cards to be cadets, CX can effectively diffuse the argument of discrimination against Hong Kong locals by showing that others groups are willing to accept the deal (although I suspect many will leave CX once they have gained the required experience).
For me, a relevant parallel is the recruitment of freigter DEFOs (FFOs) back on CoS99. Many pilots have been recruited directly onto bases to fly the freighter. They serve(d) a freighter commitment which was 36 months from initial line check or ... etc. After the freighter commitment, these pilots can take a passenger position and/or come to Hong Kong for the full expat package. This period can be looked at as a form of apprenticeship. Similarly, a CoS08 DEFO has to serve 4 years on the base until being eligible for return to Hong Kong. Again, this can be viewed as a period of appreniceship, although many will choose to remain on the base for longer due to lifestyle considerations.
The point is that all officers, except CEPs, have a mechanism for being able to achieve the full allowance package in Hong Kong. I do not think this is fair. I do believe it is discrimination. For those who brought up the issue of bonding or some type of payback for training, I think CEPs would be much better off if they had some way to pay back CX for their training, be it via years of service or money. It is unfair is to treat them like second class pilots for the duration of their careers because they started as a cadet from Hong Kong.
Now you may enlighten me with your omniscience...
cxorcist
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I really think these LEP's got lots of BALLS. First of all you get hired at a tender age so you can spend your whole career at CX, without the additional loans and money borrowed from people to get your ratings. If CX decides to give you guys a dime for housing then the AOA better watch out because the rest of us based guys would like the same deal. I must say I agree with the DFO on this issue. You guys do have other gripes but this one is not a good fight. I wish CX paid for my ratings and then pay me to fly a 777 with only 350 hours. Fight another fight but you can't get my support.
Thats my 2 cents.
Thats my 2 cents.
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Its not fair, i cant join Cathay by reading some books, having a few flying lessons and joining the air cadets....i am British.....this must be another race issue!
That was meant very tongue in cheek, but has there ever been a case of a Hong Kong national spending his/her 20's busting his/her nuts building hours (or through their second nationality, flying in the military) and then joining Cathay as a DEFO?
I would be very interested to see how this situation, if it has ever arisen, was treated.
That was meant very tongue in cheek, but has there ever been a case of a Hong Kong national spending his/her 20's busting his/her nuts building hours (or through their second nationality, flying in the military) and then joining Cathay as a DEFO?
I would be very interested to see how this situation, if it has ever arisen, was treated.
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Mullah lite
"I'm still not seeing you go after him for his 'chinese style' remark. So please excuse me if I see a double standard in being quick to attack me and not him".
You are correct, I am attacking you and a few others because you are the ones "diving in the penalty box" clutching your shin with one hand and the racecard in the other.
Treboryelk
I have flown with a number of SOs and FOs, mainly sons and daughters of CX pilots and engineers, who rejected the CEP scheme and went through the GA hours-building-bug-smashing machine and ended up in CX on expats terms (I imagine there are an equal number of HKID CPL qualified hamburger flippers out there as well
).... which leads to my next post...
"I'm still not seeing you go after him for his 'chinese style' remark. So please excuse me if I see a double standard in being quick to attack me and not him".
You are correct, I am attacking you and a few others because you are the ones "diving in the penalty box" clutching your shin with one hand and the racecard in the other.
Treboryelk
I have flown with a number of SOs and FOs, mainly sons and daughters of CX pilots and engineers, who rejected the CEP scheme and went through the GA hours-building-bug-smashing machine and ended up in CX on expats terms (I imagine there are an equal number of HKID CPL qualified hamburger flippers out there as well
).... which leads to my next post...
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CXorist
I am glad you have dropped the racecard. I think the thrust of your post is contained in the following 2 quotes;
"However, I still think it is fair to call the CX status quo discrimination against those from Hong Kong - which is really the relevant issue here" and
"The point is that all officers, except CEPs, have a mechanism for being able to achieve the full allowance package in Hong Kong. I do not think this is fair. I do believe it is discrimination."
Again, your argument would hold some validity if those pilots who had HKID's, but went overseas and gained the necessary qualifications and experience, and then joined CX as DESO's or DEFO's were compelled by virtue of their HKID's to be CEPs/ LEP's. But this is not the case.
We all can, and often do, bleat about our contracts being unfair with varying degrees of validity. Both you and I will never be on A Scale because we joined after 1993, yet we do the same job as the A scaler. Is that unfair, is it discriminatory?
To label something discriminatory I believe you cross a line; you are saying it is more than unfair, you are saying it is abhorent and in this day and age you are saying it is legally challengable. I am very uncomfortable with labelling this as discriminatory.
However, those who have posted along the lines of Michael Bolton, need to be aware that the company are opening the door to change. LEPs now get a form of Education Allowance and if the DFO's words can be taken at face value
, he is entertaining the idea of a payment to LEP's in lieu of housing. This is happening with or without the wider pilot bodies input..... should we care?
"However, I still think it is fair to call the CX status quo discrimination against those from Hong Kong - which is really the relevant issue here" and
"The point is that all officers, except CEPs, have a mechanism for being able to achieve the full allowance package in Hong Kong. I do not think this is fair. I do believe it is discrimination."
Again, your argument would hold some validity if those pilots who had HKID's, but went overseas and gained the necessary qualifications and experience, and then joined CX as DESO's or DEFO's were compelled by virtue of their HKID's to be CEPs/ LEP's. But this is not the case.
We all can, and often do, bleat about our contracts being unfair with varying degrees of validity. Both you and I will never be on A Scale because we joined after 1993, yet we do the same job as the A scaler. Is that unfair, is it discriminatory?
To label something discriminatory I believe you cross a line; you are saying it is more than unfair, you are saying it is abhorent and in this day and age you are saying it is legally challengable. I am very uncomfortable with labelling this as discriminatory.
However, those who have posted along the lines of Michael Bolton, need to be aware that the company are opening the door to change. LEPs now get a form of Education Allowance and if the DFO's words can be taken at face value
, he is entertaining the idea of a payment to LEP's in lieu of housing. This is happening with or without the wider pilot bodies input..... should we care?
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Liam
"You are correct, I am attacking you and a few others because you are the ones "diving in the penalty box" clutching your shin with one hand and the racecard in the other."
Still asking you to go back and trawl through my posts and pull something out that screams race. No success? Might be because I've never thought it was a race issue. So perhaps you could cease with the baseless remarks, thank you very much.
"You are correct, I am attacking you and a few others because you are the ones "diving in the penalty box" clutching your shin with one hand and the racecard in the other."
Still asking you to go back and trawl through my posts and pull something out that screams race. No success? Might be because I've never thought it was a race issue. So perhaps you could cease with the baseless remarks, thank you very much.
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Mullah Lite
Your wish is my command, see your post 189
Addressed to CXchildlabour, you said...
"Self imposed prejudice and bias wlll always allow those few to cultivate a blind and hardened heart. A hardened heart dulls a person's ability to believe or understand another's point of view. So maybe the only thing that we can do is convince by example, whether or not we get their support."
I took your comment to mean that anyone who took a contrary view to CXchildlabour (and by implication you) suffered from self imposed predudice and bias. Sounds like the racecard to me.....
You can continue to "lob nasty eggs" at me (and I didn't even make the comments that offended you so) or you can bring the debate back on track and explain how the LEPs are being unfairly treated anymore than the A/B, freighter/non freighter, over 55/under 55, based/non-based, COS99/CoS08 inequities that we all have to put up with day-in day-out.
Did we all not at some stage walk into a room and read and sign a contract? If we believe that contract to be unfair/discriminatory/racist (delete as appropriate) surely the answer was to not sign......
Addressed to CXchildlabour, you said...
"Self imposed prejudice and bias wlll always allow those few to cultivate a blind and hardened heart. A hardened heart dulls a person's ability to believe or understand another's point of view. So maybe the only thing that we can do is convince by example, whether or not we get their support."
I took your comment to mean that anyone who took a contrary view to CXchildlabour (and by implication you) suffered from self imposed predudice and bias. Sounds like the racecard to me.....
You can continue to "lob nasty eggs" at me (and I didn't even make the comments that offended you so) or you can bring the debate back on track and explain how the LEPs are being unfairly treated anymore than the A/B, freighter/non freighter, over 55/under 55, based/non-based, COS99/CoS08 inequities that we all have to put up with day-in day-out.
Did we all not at some stage walk into a room and read and sign a contract? If we believe that contract to be unfair/discriminatory/racist (delete as appropriate) surely the answer was to not sign......
Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 16th Feb 2010 at 05:06.
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The irony in all this is that if there is one place in the world at the moment that a chinese speaking person with a basic CPL and 737 rating could currently get a narrowbody jet job it's just over the border in China. And here's Cathay hiring cadets because they can't find locals with flying experience.
BTW Having permanent ID here doesn't mean anything, you don't exercise it for 24 months at a border crossing and it is revoked. Little bit different to a HKG passport.............
TGIG it wasn't the same conditions, I was rejected until I had 4000 hrs.........
BTW Having permanent ID here doesn't mean anything, you don't exercise it for 24 months at a border crossing and it is revoked. Little bit different to a HKG passport.............
TGIG it wasn't the same conditions, I was rejected until I had 4000 hrs.........
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Show me the money! Some other Expats Housing Allowance alone
Tony Tyler: HK$ 2,709,000.00 (HK$ 225,750.00 per month)
Nick Rhodes: HK$ 2,513,000.00 (HK$ 209,416.67 per month)
By the way:
Stop Bitching guys - fight for unity instead. Try be more professional if you would like to be treated as such.
Nick Rhodes: HK$ 2,513,000.00 (HK$ 209,416.67 per month)
By the way:
Stop Bitching guys - fight for unity instead. Try be more professional if you would like to be treated as such.
Last edited by crewsunite; 16th Feb 2010 at 09:36.
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TGIG
Same job/same pay/same conditions is a myth.
Pilot's wages have been dropping over the passed 20 years and typically most legacy airlines have differing payscales dependent on DOJ. In my home country, BA perhaps is one of the most marked. Just one example...the fortunes, or lack thereof, of the BA pension scheme will provide a marked difference between the earnings of senior and junior pilots.
Indeed, in the UK many employees, including civil servants such as police and teachers, receive a "London weighting" which is an allowance to entice them to work in London.
I agree, one wrong does not right another wrong. I also believe that just because you can't right all wrongs, doesn't mean you should not try and right but one. Please re-read my post; what makes this inequity, in a swamp of inequities, the most important?
Finally, a question for you.... did you raise your same job/same conditions mantra at your interview? If not, why not?
Crewsunite..... I agree, lets all unite to get me A-scales.... happy?
Pilot's wages have been dropping over the passed 20 years and typically most legacy airlines have differing payscales dependent on DOJ. In my home country, BA perhaps is one of the most marked. Just one example...the fortunes, or lack thereof, of the BA pension scheme will provide a marked difference between the earnings of senior and junior pilots.
Indeed, in the UK many employees, including civil servants such as police and teachers, receive a "London weighting" which is an allowance to entice them to work in London.
I agree, one wrong does not right another wrong. I also believe that just because you can't right all wrongs, doesn't mean you should not try and right but one. Please re-read my post; what makes this inequity, in a swamp of inequities, the most important?
Finally, a question for you.... did you raise your same job/same conditions mantra at your interview? If not, why not?
Crewsunite..... I agree, lets all unite to get me A-scales.... happy?
Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 16th Feb 2010 at 06:06.
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No I didn't raise this in the interview, surely if I did I wouldn't be posting in this forum today. Nor could I have guessed that a self proclaimed Hong Kong airline would give such a wide pay disparity between its local pilots vs its expat pilots.
I know that this is what I've signed for, and thus, as many has pointed out in this thread, what I'm only entitled to get. My only conclusion to that is, if this is the case, we should all never ask for better conditions because we all signed a contract when we joined. Its ironic how some of my fellow colleagues keep remaining me what I signed for years ago when in a few years time the company will change the very wording of that contract at its whim - again and again...
I know that this is what I've signed for, and thus, as many has pointed out in this thread, what I'm only entitled to get. My only conclusion to that is, if this is the case, we should all never ask for better conditions because we all signed a contract when we joined. Its ironic how some of my fellow colleagues keep remaining me what I signed for years ago when in a few years time the company will change the very wording of that contract at its whim - again and again...
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TGIG
The point you raise in the second paragraph is a fair one and I agree that many of us too quick to overlook it. However, for my part I don't object that the LEP's are working to improve their lot, what I object to is the type of argument they are using...
Changing tack slightly, I have mentioned all the inequities in our various contracts and they are all issues the AOA has tried to improve/reconcile, yet it is the LEP's that have seemed, with or without the AOA's help, to gain some traction and get an improvement out of the company. No agenda from me, just 2 honest questions;
1. Why do you think the company introduced Education allowance for LEP's, and,
2. How genuine do you think the DFO's recent "offer" of $12,000 was?
Changing tack slightly, I have mentioned all the inequities in our various contracts and they are all issues the AOA has tried to improve/reconcile, yet it is the LEP's that have seemed, with or without the AOA's help, to gain some traction and get an improvement out of the company. No agenda from me, just 2 honest questions;
1. Why do you think the company introduced Education allowance for LEP's, and,
2. How genuine do you think the DFO's recent "offer" of $12,000 was?
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DragonAir CEP pilots get $ 12000 -as FO. I think it is basically what the CX CEP's would like as well.
As far as I am concerned that would be great if they can get it. Anyone who is able to improve his package I am happy for. It doesn't cost me anything....
As far as I am concerned that would be great if they can get it. Anyone who is able to improve his package I am happy for. It doesn't cost me anything....
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Liam, you are truly a piece of work to behold. Nothing in that statement had anything to do with the race card. You could just have easily seen it as being an argument that some people here will always see a cadet as being second class, simply because of their method of entry, not the colour of their skin. But seeing as I seem to keep being the one to try and point this out to you, I really have to question whether you are the one using the race card, not me.
Anyhoos, nice try. I will say it again....the race card is an illegitimate argument. If you and I both agree on that, let's leave it to rest there, shall we.
Anyhoos, nice try. I will say it again....the race card is an illegitimate argument. If you and I both agree on that, let's leave it to rest there, shall we.
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Post #1
Mullah
Err, I know it was a long time ago but I thought I'd highlight this bit from the post that started this nonsense (quoted from the piece in the Standard). This is possibly what Liam is referring to but to be sure, I'd ask him.
STP
Err, I know it was a long time ago but I thought I'd highlight this bit from the post that started this nonsense (quoted from the piece in the Standard). This is possibly what Liam is referring to but to be sure, I'd ask him.
The group has also sought help from three legislators to determine whether the airline is in breach of racial discrimination laws or regulations.
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sirhcttarp
I read that statement and the posts by cxdiscriminates. I have no way of knowing if what they say is true and certainly would not take those statements as evidence to prove the racist claims.
What I do know is CX has no policy that states HKID card holders are only to employed on local terms. I have never flown with anyone that has experienced such. However, I have flown with a number of pilots who were eligible to become CEP's but elected to fund their own training and successfully applied to CX and are on expat terms.
If it has happened in individual cases, then I would hope the AOA would fund a legal action. However, even if any individual cases exist they would not validate any claim that the CEP program is racist/nationalist/ or other 'ist (which is the argument the original poster was promoting)
What I do know is CX has no policy that states HKID card holders are only to employed on local terms. I have never flown with anyone that has experienced such. However, I have flown with a number of pilots who were eligible to become CEP's but elected to fund their own training and successfully applied to CX and are on expat terms.
If it has happened in individual cases, then I would hope the AOA would fund a legal action. However, even if any individual cases exist they would not validate any claim that the CEP program is racist/nationalist/ or other 'ist (which is the argument the original poster was promoting)