Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you mean like another SLS and RA65 so you sign away bypass pay? Just ask any Canadian based FO! Sometimes your hand is FORCED to sign. You just wait, it'll happen.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are correct absolutely nothing will stop them from doing what you mention, hence the reason why previous posters are saying about CEPs indirectly attacking the housing allowance. For most expats the housing allowance is the only thing that makes it worth while staying in HKG. If the housing allowance is substantially reduced, I suspect a few will leave, but the majority will stay and be even more disgruntled, and the pilot body will be even more divided.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Somewhere out there..
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the housing allowance is substantially reduced, I suspect a few will leave, but the majority will stay and be even more disgruntled, and the pilot body will be even more divided.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: london
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...compelling logic. I still think the idea of basing your position on attaining a housing allowance is flawed, but I certainly agree that 'increasing' your package is a good one, as any incremental increase for ANY group can only help in supporting our overall conditions. I think the time has come to stop bickering on the detail, and re-establish solidarity as a group of professionals. Our adversary is NOT each other....
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CEPs are actually doing YOU a favour by asking for housing. You can return the favour and help yourself by joining their cause.
Furthermore, if the ultimate plan is to do away with the housing allowance, do you really think paying the CEPs a housing now will forever in the future protect the housing allowance??? An airline acts by either a crippling strike or by seeing a large turnover amongst its staff. Will any CEP resign if a housing allowance is not offered to them, or taken from them at a future date???
I still think the idea of basing your position on attaining a housing allowance is flawed
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't understand why we would expect the company to spend more on a CEP than a FO on a base. Are we saying it's ok to give less to FOs because they live in their own country now? So your an inexperienced CEP and can live it up, but FOs on bases have to deal with reduced packages in comparison?
We all know their is no discrimination and it's only a press stunt to pressure the company. But we should put our focus on pressures that will benefit all of us.
We all know their is no discrimination and it's only a press stunt to pressure the company. But we should put our focus on pressures that will benefit all of us.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hong Kong Fooey
A threat to my package is people like you who came to HKG and worked for abysmal outfits such as Hong Kong Airlines. I have no doubt about this.
And secondly, a widening gap between my benefits and those of my local colleagues.
Now I understand mugs like yourself never realize a big picture and warm to the fact that someone who never did it as tough and as well as you doesn't deserve your expatriate perks.
I can also see that my local colleagues must be dismayed that undercutting expatriates who came to Hong Kong to work for second rate operators. Now make more after a few months of service than a local captain who has been in the airline for some time.
A threat to my package is people like you who came to HKG and worked for abysmal outfits such as Hong Kong Airlines. I have no doubt about this.
And secondly, a widening gap between my benefits and those of my local colleagues.
Now I understand mugs like yourself never realize a big picture and warm to the fact that someone who never did it as tough and as well as you doesn't deserve your expatriate perks.
I can also see that my local colleagues must be dismayed that undercutting expatriates who came to Hong Kong to work for second rate operators. Now make more after a few months of service than a local captain who has been in the airline for some time.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Liam,
I think the latest CEP FAQ missive from the HKAOA puts all of this in perspective. It addresses most of your problems with respect to the discrimination charge. I still believe that it is discrimination against a mostly Chinese group from Hong Kong. The fact that a few from Hong Kong have managed to get expat allowances does not IMO weaken the charge.
No offense, but with views like yours I would imagine you are not a HKAOA member. However, I would be happy to send you the FAQ from the HKAOA if you would like to view them. Feel free to PM me.
CXorcist
PS - Your view about when an expat becomes a local disgusts me and will never gain traction if I have anything to say about it. Perhaps you are NR pretending to be a pilot????
I think the latest CEP FAQ missive from the HKAOA puts all of this in perspective. It addresses most of your problems with respect to the discrimination charge. I still believe that it is discrimination against a mostly Chinese group from Hong Kong. The fact that a few from Hong Kong have managed to get expat allowances does not IMO weaken the charge.
No offense, but with views like yours I would imagine you are not a HKAOA member. However, I would be happy to send you the FAQ from the HKAOA if you would like to view them. Feel free to PM me.
CXorcist
PS - Your view about when an expat becomes a local disgusts me and will never gain traction if I have anything to say about it. Perhaps you are NR pretending to be a pilot????
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 672
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the amount should be enough to ensure that you maintain roughly the same living standards as where you come from.
...or, perhaps we should compare to other flying jobs. Fair enough! So an expat working overseas, had they not joined CX might not be flying for a major airline. They might be furloughed or perhaps instead of command at CX they are F/Os on a widebody or perhaps captains on a small plane....or they might be living in a large house with a swimming pool in a nice part of town. Who knows? What does the CEP benchmark to? Well, if a CEP was to leave Cathay with a few years of widebody flying under their belt they could earn the same amount as what the expat is benchmarking themselves to. As someone else mentionned the 'housing' for a CEP should maybe be marketed as a retainer.
It is one thing for people to say a CEP should only get the living standards they would have in Hong Kong anyway, but how do you quantify it? There are some damned smart CEPs who would be living very well had it not been for Cathay's cadet scheme!
Guest
Posts: n/a
There are some damned smart CEPS who would be living very well had it not been for Cathay's Cadet Scheme.
Face it, without the Cathay Cadet Scheme, the majority of the CEPS ( not all...) would not have woken up from their bank job one morning and thought " I can earn more money by being a Pilot, I'll do that"...... The financial gain is the main motivation in Hong Kong, hence the reason for this tiresome Thread.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are some damned smart CEPs who would be living very well had it not been for Cathay's cadet scheme!
If all these smart people are REALLY so smart and fed up why don't they leave and find a much better job somewhere else, after all that's what they were all saying to those that wanted to stay past 55.
The division was started when the "race" card was played. The way this whole situation has developed there appears to be a hidden agenda. I think the HKAOA President has a lot of explaining to do, as Mass joining then this! Pity they could not have put a bit more time and money into the HKAOA first!
What the problem really is here, is that some of the posters see the expats using the housing allowance to purchase and think it is unfair because they signed a "local" contract, whereas the majority of expats use it for rental. The "company" chose that purchase scheme to make the workforce more compliant and also to save money. Too many people see this expat allowance as "salary" it is NOT.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the CEP captain won't because he/she didn't suffer any setback. All guys on expat housing deal will participate, but what does the company do? Give CEP's overtime, tolerate the sick out until they deem it union activity and then fire you (since it's illegal to participate in union activities in hk).
if the same CEP captain is also on expat housing (let's say the deal is that CEPs get full housing as captain), as you are, and company tries to reduce housing to 24k. This time, union has a fit, and everyone will participate in the sick out.
Those CEPs who aren't captains yet will also participate because by having a reduced housing, it's reducing their future earnings. They will stand together with everyone else since they have something to lose.
You can bang your fist on NR's desk all you want, but the company is not going to increase the housing allowance budget, not for you and not for anyone. If his offer of $12k was genuine he would have offered it right now, but he wants to have it coincide with when the housing agreement is due, so that he can simply take a slice from the expats and give it to the CEPs, to be seen as genuinely caring toward the CEP cause, and at the same time he will have a further divided group, which will in-turn only benefit the company. Really, a win-win situation for management if we continue down this path.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm a Europe based F/O, and I have nothing against the LEP having the same housing allowances as the expats in HK.
If another 10-15% of pilots get the housing, it will be even harder for the company to scrap the deal.
And once they get it, it'll be time for us to ask the same thing
If another 10-15% of pilots get the housing, it will be even harder for the company to scrap the deal.
And once they get it, it'll be time for us to ask the same thing
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CXorist
In my experience anyone who starts with "no offence" means to do the complete opposite.
The AOA's CEP's FAQ's follow a similar pattern to some of the posts here. The AOA plays the "race card" and tries to reap the rewards. They fail to back up the racial discrimination charge with any evidence whatsover. However, they do concede;
"It is true that many CEPs are not Chinese. However, most are Chinese - certainly enough for CEPs, as a group, to be identified as Chinese for the purposes of the Racial Discrimination Ordinance...."
What a stunning revelation... the CEP program, that is designed to get locals into the cockpit, is mostly chinese
Many however are not. So what are they saying, many are not chinese, but to suit or argument we are going to define the group as chinese.... I'm confused...
However, what is not in doubt is that none of the CEP's receive expat terms (except maybe the instructors
). To be racist, it would have to be that the CEPs are divided racially, such that one racial group receive expat allowances and another racial group do not. This is not the case, and I note the AOA are not even attempting to argue such; so where is the racism??
The AOA also concede that the RDO doesn't apply because of what they describe as "a loophole". It is worth remembering that one person's loophole is another person's fair and just law...
Finally,
"PS - Your view about when an expat becomes a local disgusts me and will never gain traction if I have anything to say about it."
eeh? WTF are talking about. Are you diving in the penalty box again?
The AOA's CEP's FAQ's follow a similar pattern to some of the posts here. The AOA plays the "race card" and tries to reap the rewards. They fail to back up the racial discrimination charge with any evidence whatsover. However, they do concede;
"It is true that many CEPs are not Chinese. However, most are Chinese - certainly enough for CEPs, as a group, to be identified as Chinese for the purposes of the Racial Discrimination Ordinance...."
What a stunning revelation... the CEP program, that is designed to get locals into the cockpit, is mostly chinese
Many however are not. So what are they saying, many are not chinese, but to suit or argument we are going to define the group as chinese.... I'm confused...However, what is not in doubt is that none of the CEP's receive expat terms (except maybe the instructors
). To be racist, it would have to be that the CEPs are divided racially, such that one racial group receive expat allowances and another racial group do not. This is not the case, and I note the AOA are not even attempting to argue such; so where is the racism??The AOA also concede that the RDO doesn't apply because of what they describe as "a loophole". It is worth remembering that one person's loophole is another person's fair and just law...
Finally,
"PS - Your view about when an expat becomes a local disgusts me and will never gain traction if I have anything to say about it."
eeh? WTF are talking about. Are you diving in the penalty box again?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 672
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Longtimeincx, iceman50, crwjerk,
You really are a cynical bunch aren't you. Just because CEPs decided on flying as a career it does not mean they are not smart. (It also says a lot about you as a fellow pilot as well if you believe what you are saying!). Why did you become pilots? Perhaps it was because you cannot see yourself sitting behind a desk working 9-5 every day. Perhaps it is because you stood at the edge of the runway as a kid with a huge grin on your face watching the planes come and go. Perhaps as a kid on holiday you used to stare in admiration at the smartly dressed pilots walking through the terminal. Many CEPs became pilots for the same reasons as many of the expats and money is not always a top priority in life. It is sad that you would assume people are stupid for chosing the lesser lucrative careers on purpose. Sad that sometimes we forget the enthusiasm we had as young pilots instead of the jaded and cynical bitchers and moaners that we have all become.
You really are a cynical bunch aren't you. Just because CEPs decided on flying as a career it does not mean they are not smart. (It also says a lot about you as a fellow pilot as well if you believe what you are saying!). Why did you become pilots? Perhaps it was because you cannot see yourself sitting behind a desk working 9-5 every day. Perhaps it is because you stood at the edge of the runway as a kid with a huge grin on your face watching the planes come and go. Perhaps as a kid on holiday you used to stare in admiration at the smartly dressed pilots walking through the terminal. Many CEPs became pilots for the same reasons as many of the expats and money is not always a top priority in life. It is sad that you would assume people are stupid for chosing the lesser lucrative careers on purpose. Sad that sometimes we forget the enthusiasm we had as young pilots instead of the jaded and cynical bitchers and moaners that we have all become.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 672
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ou can bang your fist on NR's desk all you want, but the company is not going to increase the housing allowance budget, not for you and not for anyone.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QUOTE:
crwjerk:
Face it, without the Cathay Cadet Scheme, the majority of the CEPS ( not all...) would not have woken up from their bank job one morning and thought " I can earn more money by being a Pilot, I'll do that"...... The financial gain is the main motivation in Hong Kong, hence the reason for this tiresome Thread.
-- did you not come to CX and HK for the financial gain? in fact, i would have quitted CX and paved my way to become a banker if i'm to earn more money. I, like many other CEPS and my coursemates, am a big fan of aircraft since i was a kid. What's your logic when u made such comments about the CEPS?
-- you are the very few minor EXPATS that make me sick.
crwjerk:
Face it, without the Cathay Cadet Scheme, the majority of the CEPS ( not all...) would not have woken up from their bank job one morning and thought " I can earn more money by being a Pilot, I'll do that"...... The financial gain is the main motivation in Hong Kong, hence the reason for this tiresome Thread.
-- did you not come to CX and HK for the financial gain? in fact, i would have quitted CX and paved my way to become a banker if i'm to earn more money. I, like many other CEPS and my coursemates, am a big fan of aircraft since i was a kid. What's your logic when u made such comments about the CEPS?
-- you are the very few minor EXPATS that make me sick.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Kaya Lalapanzi
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
747 wrote
Sorry , I do not understand - maybe it is lost in translation - maybe you can enlighten other aviators worldwide as to what you are trying to say.
Are you only in CPA for the money? And you would rather be a banker should you earn a greater salary/package?
You may have been a 'big fan of aircraft' since you were a kid, but I know of many cadets - of many airlines - who have no idea of a/c types , let alone other aircraft type performance. And as in the CPA case, I know of some cadets that 5 years ago had no idea of the existence of the pilot profession (only became aware of it for the first time at their uni's roadshow fronted by CPA!) and now they sit in the RHS of a widebody - The same 25yo live with their family(cultural thing?) and have no intention of moving away from Mom.
Is CPA not overstaffed - EK has 25% more aircraft and 25% less pilots , and believe it or not EK work a lot harder with no credit hours (in fact less credit for time in the bunk). Or maybe you prefer Korean
QUOTE:
crwjerk:
Face it, without the Cathay Cadet Scheme, the majority of the CEPS ( not all...) would not have woken up from their bank job one morning and thought " I can earn more money by being a Pilot, I'll do that"...... The financial gain is the main motivation in Hong Kong, hence the reason for this tiresome Thread.
-- did you not come to CX and HK for the financial gain? in fact, i would have quitted CX and paved my way to become a banker if i'm to earn more money. I, like many other CEPS and my coursemates, am a big fan of aircraft since i was a kid. What's your logic when u made such comments about the CEPS?
-- you are the very few minor EXPATS that make me sick.
crwjerk:
Face it, without the Cathay Cadet Scheme, the majority of the CEPS ( not all...) would not have woken up from their bank job one morning and thought " I can earn more money by being a Pilot, I'll do that"...... The financial gain is the main motivation in Hong Kong, hence the reason for this tiresome Thread.
-- did you not come to CX and HK for the financial gain? in fact, i would have quitted CX and paved my way to become a banker if i'm to earn more money. I, like many other CEPS and my coursemates, am a big fan of aircraft since i was a kid. What's your logic when u made such comments about the CEPS?
-- you are the very few minor EXPATS that make me sick.
Are you only in CPA for the money? And you would rather be a banker should you earn a greater salary/package?
You may have been a 'big fan of aircraft' since you were a kid, but I know of many cadets - of many airlines - who have no idea of a/c types , let alone other aircraft type performance. And as in the CPA case, I know of some cadets that 5 years ago had no idea of the existence of the pilot profession (only became aware of it for the first time at their uni's roadshow fronted by CPA!) and now they sit in the RHS of a widebody - The same 25yo live with their family(cultural thing?) and have no intention of moving away from Mom.
Is CPA not overstaffed - EK has 25% more aircraft and 25% less pilots , and believe it or not EK work a lot harder with no credit hours (in fact less credit for time in the bunk). Or maybe you prefer Korean
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gofor:
The same 25yo live with their family(cultural thing?) and have no intention of moving away from Mom.
The same 25yo live with their family(cultural thing?) and have no intention of moving away from Mom.