13th Month

[strike committee]

hello again hydrolix.

thanks for the reply.
well, where do i start..

It makes no difference whether we are in the union or not

well, i beg to differ. i shudder to think what would be if cx had open season on the COS. whether or not you are in fact a crew member remains to be seen. i am certain that things would be significantly worse than that which we see now. remember- in the not too distant past - just before 911 we had the company on the ropes. they were struggling with the 49ers decison, wet leased aircraft, high crew sickness, bad PR, court cases. then after 911 things changed. what happened? i can tell you what happened. the airline industry changed and we were forced to adopt a different strategy to adapt to the changed climate. unfortunately the pendulum swung too far and is now swinging back toward where we were. CX mismanagement have shown themselves to be the greedy, heartless specimens that we always knew they were, only now we have the truth right in front of us to see. it makes no difference whether we are in the hkaoa? i beg to differ. as time goes on more and more crew will see the benefits of unity. we can easily get back to the posiion of strength and management will lead the way with their underhand tactics.

mamagement can stall, as long as the crew are not united. this is the whole point. the unity comes from leadership and members taking it upon themselves to promote the union cause. once again check out this link on education to promote discussion on events that have caused this situation. the situation that can only be remedied increasing membership..

I am financially better off because I don't have to pay subs.

well there you go.. good for you for saving the subs. this link shows your flawed argument there.. if you honestly consider the subs to be a hardship, you are only fooling yourself for the benefits recieved now and the potential in the future. individual contracts are too funny to even talk about... nice try..

for real cx crew:
talk to interested crew about the issues, then pass on their details ( email/ mob ph ) to hkaoa @ hkaoa.org

[Hydrolix]

Strike Committee

I do understand your argument but I remain to be convinced. Even if membership is 100%, at what lengths will the AOA go to obtain better conditions. For example, I don't think many people think that 3 man crew to Europe and maybe Vancouver (anything under 14 hours I believe) is a particularly good thing. What lengths do you think the AOA will take to make sure this doesn't happen. The new CAD FTL's come out soon with a provision for exactly this, Vol 1 will be amended and we will be stuck with it - by the end of 2010 if we're lucky, by the start of next year if not. Even if we had 100% membership, what would the AOA do. Negotiate for a payrise, which in these "uncertain" times seems very uncertain or something else. Contract compliance? Strike? Even if the committee recommends such actions, I doubt whether a significant majority would. I would be happy to join the union if I can be convinced. Start your engines........

[strike committee]

hydrolix ( and all the rest of the members to be.. )

good to hear you are in need of convincing.. that is the first step.. the open mind...
firstly, lets get past the standard hurdles. i truly dont believe that the fees are of such a significant amount to stop any member to be. if anyone is so restricted financially so as not to be able to afford them, i would suggest that they would need more than most any financial gains to be got and probably advice from a financial expert!!

secondly, think of the options:

stick with the status quo. this will lead to what? more of the same, no progress, years of struggle and strain, uncertainty and financial loss. uncertainty for you and your families future.

join the hkaoa. become part of a building presence. invest in your career by standing up for your rights. stopping the chipping away of your benefits and salary and erosion of your conditions of service. of course all of this wont happen overnight and each of us will have to DO SOMETHING to help. you will have to start taking pride in our positions within the company and take back the ground that has been taken from us over the years. will we have to strike? i hope not? that is the whole point. unity gives options. options that have been successful in the past not only with the hkaoa, but with other unions overseas. this is what we have to strive toward. all of this is achievable, but only by committing to what we have to achieve and all doing it together. i have said it many times already. each of us has to play their part. if all you do is talk over the issues with crew you fly with and if they show interest, get their details and send it in to the hkaoa for the committee members responsible to follow up. cx managers have shown their fear of the hkaoa gathering this same information.

all in all, the reason is up to you. i could sit here all day and write, but ultimately a personal decision has to be made to get involved and play a part in something good. the first step is the hardest. once you join , you have the right to participate and have joined the fight to improve your career.

if anyone talks to crew who are interested email their details ( email / mob ph ) to hkaoa @ hkaoa.org

[Hydrolix]

A good post Strike Committee, I do agree with a lot of what you've said, and the decision is still open at this stage. As for the subs - what are they?

[Numero Crunchero]

I can completely understand and sympathise with the 'why bother' attitude on the AOA. But to me being in the AOA is akin to inoculations....if everyone else has their kids inoculated for any particular disease, then you don't need to bother inoculating your kid(s). In fact, it is quite smart not to as there is always a risk in having your child(ren) inoculated. The only benefit in being innoculated is not getting sick - but then what were the chances of you getting sick in the first place? Its hard to justify the benefits in the absence of something until you have personally experienced the malaise being prevented.

So to complete the metaphor, the subs are the small risk and the rewards are in you getting 'less sick' or having less degraded CoS.

The only way either side can ever prove they are right is by having 100% in the union acting cohesively or no one in any union and letting the company and individual come up with their own terms and conditions.

[Karrupted]

Hydro, NC

Hydrolix is a freerider

I long ago came to the conclusion that 100% membership in any organisation is unrealistic - for the simple reason that a minority of employees only ever consider their own perspective.

Luckily at KA people like Hydrolix are few and far between. It would be nice to think most people joined the DPA to provide 'group cover' to their peers, rather than looking for individual benefit, and I think most people appreciate the cameraderie and feeling that each of us is looking out for the other.

By comparison, wage rises and renegotiated contracts are small beer. Anyone who thinks you're better off on your own is a poor student of history - industrial and otherwise, and probably shouldn't be in a multi-crew cockpit.

Good luck to the new AOA team - you're sending the right message.

Karrupted

[Apple Tree Yard]

Back in the late 80's, early 90's the membership rate was near 100%...hmm, we also saw annual raises of 10% +. Evidence = Theory = Fact.

[Yeager]

All this talk about the AoA. What the fuk can the AoA do about the discretionary 13th month. Yup, nothing. As everybody is aware the membership of the AoA is quite "low" to be modest.

Now why dont some of you grow some balls and take some action instead of winching like little girls. Just take back the other 14 days of that u rightfully deserve. The Christmas month is coming up why not plan on spending it with you family. Now "The" Company has just made that so very possibly. GO SICK an show whos in control or shut up.

Leave the AoA to do whatever little they can.

Merry Christmas everybody.

[The Messiah]

Yeager all that going sick does is make someone else have to do YOUR work, it does not hurt the company whatsoever as you are in fact only taking the 14 days from someone else on the roster.

You are still a complete DH but on the positive side you are almost fluent in English these days.

[Yeager]

Dear Mess,

Somehow I am not suprised that you would reply to my reply. U do have a tendency to be rather fragile to my posts. Anyways good to hear from you again, mate.

Well. Thank you for acknowledging my improvements in English. It really means a lot to me what you think. While we are at the topic, hows it going with you languages? Making progress or just same same, mate.

Obviously, my good friend, you missed the point of calling sick. I shall make it simple, not to confuse you. Its just at way of taking what you should have been given (a 13th months salery!). Period for that bid.

The pathetic point that somebody else will have to work makes no sense. Thats why we have standby duties. If everybody did have some balls and did the same thing, instead of accepting getting shafted, what do you think would happen? Dont you think somebody (management) would notice that the body responded to managements actions and maybe (only maybe!) reconsider next time?

Now why am I still a Decision Height - maybe I still need to improve my English..

I would like to wish you a Merry Christmas, The Mess, but I just dont know if you will have to work on your standby while I am having Christmas with my family..

[slapfaan]

The union has been a mess for years but is now on the road to recovery. For once we seem to have our house in order.

Tiger321..and exactly WHAT has the AOA done for its "house to be in order?!?"

Joining letters were recently removed by the company from postboxes (which made the newspaper headlines) but still NOTHING has been done by the AOA..

Now talking about joining:I have no problem with joining and paying subs,but herein lies the paradox..

You see,if I join and pay,I shall have a mutual agreement with the AOA,as a paying member I would expect them to follow up and actually DO SOMETHING about every single issue that I have (...and there is a very long list..!!!)

Now then,if they don't follow up and act on my issues,that means breach of contract and I will then hold the AOA accountable..

You see,that's the difference between you and I.You simply pay and pay your subs every month..and always hope that your AOA will be "taking a step in the right direction..." and all that bull

As for me..I WILL get my lawyers onto the AOA if they don't deliver,and not only will I sue them for ALL subs paid WITH interest,but also a couple of million extra for the break of mutual trust placed in them and their constant laissez-faire approach to everything!!

Face it...the company is laughing at the AOA...and indirectly at all you clowns who keep it afloat!!

[CMOTDibler]

Sorry Slapfaan but your post cannot go without some form of rebuttal .What you propound is self-absorbed nonsensical rubbish. Can I ask why you have not sued Cathay for the breaches to your CoS? You have a written contractual agreement with them and yet the lawyer option you purport with such vehemence is surprisingly dormant. But that is the point isn't it because people like you are big on extravagent talking and exceptionaly poor at rational debating.

If you feel that you do not want representation, that the benefits to you are better out than in the AOA, then state in a logical reason your case for such. But don't just spout mordant rubbish and expect people to take you seriously.

I for one am hoping that the half 13 month payout will make people re-consider their position on joining the AoA. The AoA might not be able to achieve much, but they are the only way of achieving something other than nothing. Then again, if I only care about money, apparently I can just take them to court......

[fuji]

So slapfaan, please inform us how you have been bettering our COS outside of the AOA?

[Apple Tree Yard]

slapfaan. Congratulations on posting just about the most self absorbed, moronic statement I have ever read. Tell you what; do us a favour and DON'T join the AOA, and we'll do you a favour and allow you to run your own little 'Don Quixote' war against all and sundry....

[KAFE]

It's interesting to see just how far some of you guys are removed from reality - just wait until the C-crunch really hits the world economy.

Being in an ivory tower in the Far East arguing about half-a-month pay loss is all very well but at least you have a job and a salary!!

Yeah, flame away all those with minds narrow enough


(And up yours, too!!!)

[Yeager]

Kafe,

Yes, we have a job and a salary.. SO then we should just be fat and happy.. With that attitude where will we be in ten years from now. Happy enough to have a job and fly for food. This is not about having a job and a salary. Its about getting what we think we deserve. Management in Cathay Pathetic have serverly screwed up in year 2008. Huge fine in the US and completely screwed up the fuel hedging - and for that they want the employees to pay. On the positive side CX employees are so used to being shafted that for most it does not hurt so much anymore.

I am truely sorry for you if you dont have a job and wish you the best of luck in getting one

[quadspeed]

Hei Kafe..


Why don't you sell your computer, your furniture, your extra clothes and donate the money and volunteer your time with the red cross helping the hungry, homeless, misplaced and hopeless people of Darfur or Somalia? How dare you waste your valuable time and resources in meaningless online discussions when people are dying lacking basic needs around the world? At least you have shelter, food, water and basic human rights... isn't that enough for you in your ivory tower when so many in the world have so much less? Do you honestly want more?

Everything in this world is relative. It's a crude comparison, but your argument is exactly the same. Why don't we all be content with what we've got until everyone else has the same.... which as I'm sure you know is a political viewpoint we've seen throughout history.

Or are you just indulging your share of envy at the cost of becoming a hypocrite?