Retirement at 55, 65, 75....
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Retirement at 55, 65, 75....
" Retirement Age
I am receiving a number of enquiries about talks with the AOA on Retirement Age – understandably there are individuals who need to make plans based on the outcome of the talks.
Unfortunately I can only say that talks are ongoing – it is inappropriate to release details of the various proposals and counter-proposals as they happen.
I can confirm, however, that the Company is not "going through any motions." I am very keen to introduce age 65 into the contract of all crews as I believe that it is, inherently, the right thing to do -for both the Company and individual crew alike. You should all be able to plan your own careers and choose when you wish to stop working. It should not be left to chance based on the phase of the economic cycle when you turn 55 or the discretion of the management team of the day. I’ll let you know as soon as we reach agreement. "
The above is from CX management.
From a non-A Scale Capt (me)...
We have all planned on a career progression and retirement at 55. This has been known to all as a fact of life at CX since we signed on the bottom line. We all have had to plan for this.
Anyone who works past 55 is STEALING four promotions (off the street to SO, SO to JFO, JFO to FO & FO to Capt). You STEAL their extra income, you STEAL their professional development, you STEAL their chance to retire before they are too old for a life. SO DON'T DO IT!
F**K OFF as you agreed to when you joined.
A-Scalers have a long history of selling out all others for their own interests. If you are C&T past 55, F**K OFF. The CX line that you are needed to train for the expansion is crap - others can easily take your place. New blood would also bring C&T into the modern world.
The ONLY fair way of getting retirement at 65 is to sign new joiners to this.
I am receiving a number of enquiries about talks with the AOA on Retirement Age – understandably there are individuals who need to make plans based on the outcome of the talks.
Unfortunately I can only say that talks are ongoing – it is inappropriate to release details of the various proposals and counter-proposals as they happen.
I can confirm, however, that the Company is not "going through any motions." I am very keen to introduce age 65 into the contract of all crews as I believe that it is, inherently, the right thing to do -for both the Company and individual crew alike. You should all be able to plan your own careers and choose when you wish to stop working. It should not be left to chance based on the phase of the economic cycle when you turn 55 or the discretion of the management team of the day. I’ll let you know as soon as we reach agreement. "
The above is from CX management.
From a non-A Scale Capt (me)...
We have all planned on a career progression and retirement at 55. This has been known to all as a fact of life at CX since we signed on the bottom line. We all have had to plan for this.
Anyone who works past 55 is STEALING four promotions (off the street to SO, SO to JFO, JFO to FO & FO to Capt). You STEAL their extra income, you STEAL their professional development, you STEAL their chance to retire before they are too old for a life. SO DON'T DO IT!
F**K OFF as you agreed to when you joined.
A-Scalers have a long history of selling out all others for their own interests. If you are C&T past 55, F**K OFF. The CX line that you are needed to train for the expansion is crap - others can easily take your place. New blood would also bring C&T into the modern world.
The ONLY fair way of getting retirement at 65 is to sign new joiners to this.
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NR said I will have x amount of dollars in my PF when I retire and I would make z% per year. Not even close, Tosser.
As most will vote to suit themselves and not the greater good of the group.
NR and some others (closes to 55 group) will want 65 implemented immediately but a more sensible way to do it is phase it in over a 10-15 year period.
I am sure the AOA will look out for our better interests, they have done so in the past.
Can there be an emergency EGM to mandate the AOA stop all negotiations until a new GC is formed?
I would retire tomorrow if I had the money, but NR is making sure that is later rather than sooner.
As most will vote to suit themselves and not the greater good of the group.
NR and some others (closes to 55 group) will want 65 implemented immediately but a more sensible way to do it is phase it in over a 10-15 year period.
I am sure the AOA will look out for our better interests, they have done so in the past.
Can there be an emergency EGM to mandate the AOA stop all negotiations until a new GC is formed?
I would retire tomorrow if I had the money, but NR is making sure that is later rather than sooner.
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Funny how people like you "cxlinedriver" etc think pilots on extension are "stealing" other peoples jobs - what bollards. As well as
- well the contract that most people signed is not the contract they now enjoy - so some would like to work longer, especially as their "plans" were messed up by the company and it is the only way they will recoup their losses. As for your other comments - must be great sitting next to you "oh wonderful captain", you sound even worse than the "A scale" captains you are deriding. 
We have all planned on a career progression and retirement at 55. This has been known to all as a fact of life at CX since we signed on the bottom line. We all have had to plan for this.
, you sound even worse than the "A scale" captains you are deriding.
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I am an "A" scaler. Like NC and others, I joined in the early 90's on a payscale that is unrecognizable to what I have today.
I have haven't had a pay rise since 1994.
I have had my pay CUT significantly, without my consent, several times, in one form or another since my DOJ. The stock that we were given in partial compensation has underperformed from day one.
My career progression has been NOTHING like what I was assured. I had to endure years when we had almost no advancement (10 or 15 commands a YEAR), ASL, 9/11 and SARS.
Am I where I thought I would be when I joined? NO, not even close.
If I am offered a career in CX beyond 55, I'm taking it.
YES to 65 (I won't stay that long, my body wouldn't take it) but that's another issue.
I have haven't had a pay rise since 1994.
I have had my pay CUT significantly, without my consent, several times, in one form or another since my DOJ. The stock that we were given in partial compensation has underperformed from day one.
My career progression has been NOTHING like what I was assured. I had to endure years when we had almost no advancement (10 or 15 commands a YEAR), ASL, 9/11 and SARS.
Am I where I thought I would be when I joined? NO, not even close.
If I am offered a career in CX beyond 55, I'm taking it.
YES to 65 (I won't stay that long, my body wouldn't take it) but that's another issue.
I just crapped in your underpants you Goose
Now tell me about those Share options you got at $7.47
yeah, we remember that little bonus from NR.
NC has already established a long time back that if you'd left it in the market it would have almost OFFSET the WHOLE pay cut.
SO DON'T COME CRYING POOR TO MOMMA OK
A scale is still pretty damn better than B.
Sorry to say, but HE STARTED IT, NOT ME.
Now tell me about those Share options you got at $7.47
yeah, we remember that little bonus from NR.
NC has already established a long time back that if you'd left it in the market it would have almost OFFSET the WHOLE pay cut.
SO DON'T COME CRYING POOR TO MOMMA OK
A scale is still pretty damn better than B.
Sorry to say, but HE STARTED IT, NOT ME.
"yes I took out that money a long time ago" I hear you wine
Well maybe you should have left it alone, to grow like your PF. Shares will generally grow over time, especially 10 years. Anyone that took them out was a silly fool and only have themselves to blame for being greedy early on.
NEXT..........
What was the CX share price yesterday?
A LOT MORE THAN $7.47 that's for damn sure.
OUCH
Well maybe you should have left it alone, to grow like your PF. Shares will generally grow over time, especially 10 years. Anyone that took them out was a silly fool and only have themselves to blame for being greedy early on.
NEXT..........
What was the CX share price yesterday?
A LOT MORE THAN $7.47 that's for damn sure.
OUCH
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Cxlinedriver
I am getting a little tired of the cheap shots people like you take against A scale pilots. You can’t keep blaming them for all your shortcomings. There are only about 200 or so A scale pilots left. The vast majority of the pilot group today are B scale! How have you and your mates been on selling out?
It’s a little rich having to be lectured about abiding by my contract by a loud mouth like you (what were the words you used.. "F**k Off"?). I take it you eagerly agreed to the B scale contract when you joined, and that you’ve never complained about any aspect of your contract. In fact, you have been very happy with all its provisions. Is that correct? Hypocrite!
I’d even venture to guess that the vast majority of pilots today nearing age 55 are B Scale! Have you thought of that?
You’re telling me that I should quit after 20 years to make room for a new S/O joining the Company? Why don’t you follow your own logic then and quit, that way a new S/O can join, another S/O can be promoted…and so on. Or is it, as I suspect, that you’re all mouth and don’t have the courage of your own convictions!
ACMS. Do you really think that the few share options we got in return for a 29% pay cut offset the paycut? Are you kidding me!!! We had our pay cut in 1999. Nine years ago. Do the math (9 x 29%.....). I refer you to my second paragraph above.
We are all in this together. Try to remember that.
I am getting a little tired of the cheap shots people like you take against A scale pilots. You can’t keep blaming them for all your shortcomings. There are only about 200 or so A scale pilots left. The vast majority of the pilot group today are B scale! How have you and your mates been on selling out?
It’s a little rich having to be lectured about abiding by my contract by a loud mouth like you (what were the words you used.. "F**k Off"?). I take it you eagerly agreed to the B scale contract when you joined, and that you’ve never complained about any aspect of your contract. In fact, you have been very happy with all its provisions. Is that correct? Hypocrite!
I’d even venture to guess that the vast majority of pilots today nearing age 55 are B Scale! Have you thought of that?
You’re telling me that I should quit after 20 years to make room for a new S/O joining the Company? Why don’t you follow your own logic then and quit, that way a new S/O can join, another S/O can be promoted…and so on. Or is it, as I suspect, that you’re all mouth and don’t have the courage of your own convictions!
ACMS. Do you really think that the few share options we got in return for a 29% pay cut offset the paycut? Are you kidding me!!! We had our pay cut in 1999. Nine years ago. Do the math (9 x 29%.....). I refer you to my second paragraph above.
We are all in this together. Try to remember that.
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well I have to agree with CXLINEDRIVER....
we all signed on knowing age 55 was the end of the contract. honestly you cant cry that you dont have enough money once you reach 55yrs here with CX regardless of the position.
I laugh at you lot, always talking about your all the expensive crap you have and yet we have people (the same people) moaning that they dont have enough money and needing to work till they die.
Come on guys, we all joined for career progression, none of us signed on to work over 55yrs, so let the guys at the bottom have some progression, bugger off at 55. Sure that progression varies due to 101 factors, but dont let an increase of retirement age increase time to upgrade. If you dont, make sure bypass pay conditions are not touched, if you do you will really screw over the guys on the bottom over.
I cant understand why this is a group that always seems to have continually given away its conditions.....
we all signed on knowing age 55 was the end of the contract. honestly you cant cry that you dont have enough money once you reach 55yrs here with CX regardless of the position.
I laugh at you lot
, always talking about your all the expensive crap you have and yet we have people (the same people) moaning that they dont have enough money and needing to work till they die.Come on guys, we all joined for career progression, none of us signed on to work over 55yrs, so let the guys at the bottom have some progression, bugger off at 55. Sure that progression varies due to 101 factors, but dont let an increase of retirement age increase time to upgrade. If you dont, make sure bypass pay conditions are not touched, if you do you will really screw over the guys on the bottom over.
I cant understand why this is a group that always seems to have continually given away its conditions.....
Let me get this clearer for you.
WE SHOULD ALL BE ON A SCALE. ok
I don't begrudge A scale for 1 millisecond. What I do tire of is A scalers complaning about their paycuts and conditions.
WE are ALL in this TOGETHER.
So enough of the A scale B scale dick measuring contest.
( I'm very guilty of it, I know. )
WE SHOULD ALL BE ON A SCALE. ok
I don't begrudge A scale for 1 millisecond. What I do tire of is A scalers complaning about their paycuts and conditions.
WE are ALL in this TOGETHER.
So enough of the A scale B scale dick measuring contest.
( I'm very guilty of it, I know. )
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i was talking to someone about why we have so many differen scale. Is this the case with other airlines?
Is it CX's intention to create and not merge all these different scales so that people do not unite?
put everyone on A, or B, hell just pick somehting!!
Is it CX's intention to create and not merge all these different scales so that people do not unite?
put everyone on A, or B, hell just pick somehting!!
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Mr Bloggs For President
Can there be an emergency EGM to mandate the AOA stop all negotiations until a new GC is formed?
Then I am sure that Mr Bloggs will be the first to submit his nomination to do his bit to help his fellow pilots - NOT!!
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NewEsso,
I hope that you are being sarcastic, but maybe it is a little ignorance. Of course management loves to maintain multiple scales. It accomplishes their jobs for them. Just listen to us on this board!! Everyone sniping each other. If we are going to maintain and improve our conditions, this is the best time for us to do it. The company wants something desperately, and that gives us some leverage. Once this is gone, we really don't have much else to work with. If there aren't significant pay raises to go along with it, then it shouldn't change. They can continue to extend people and hire DEFO, and we will continue to receive bypass pay. End of story. And to your other question, no, most airlines don't have all of these ridiculous scales. Everyone on A scale, the end.
box
I hope that you are being sarcastic, but maybe it is a little ignorance. Of course management loves to maintain multiple scales. It accomplishes their jobs for them. Just listen to us on this board!! Everyone sniping each other. If we are going to maintain and improve our conditions, this is the best time for us to do it. The company wants something desperately, and that gives us some leverage. Once this is gone, we really don't have much else to work with. If there aren't significant pay raises to go along with it, then it shouldn't change. They can continue to extend people and hire DEFO, and we will continue to receive bypass pay. End of story. And to your other question, no, most airlines don't have all of these ridiculous scales. Everyone on A scale, the end.
box
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This is truly the most reduntant issue for discussion. The reality is simply this: if you're a Captain, you are comfortable with age 65; if you're an FO, you are against age 65 (that is until YOU are made captain, then of course you will default to the first clause). The argument is pointless, as we all see it from the position that best benefits each of us individually. As for a B scale FO telling me that I am 'stealing' from someone because I want to work to a 'normal' industry retirement age...well, refer to your own expletive....
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ACMS:
Agree 100%. B scale happened on A scalers watch. Other airlines around the world are doing similar things; starting salaries being an absolute joke unless you are financially well off and in it for the fun !!!! (Don't think too many of them anymore)
Unified payscale happened on my watch. I together with the rest of the pilot group let that happen, and I promise I will not complain when I don't get a raise while "C" scalers are fighting for them to get to B scale.
We should never have let different pay scales happen, but I won't go there, just say that if you let somebody in below you on lower pay/worse COS you are shooting youself in the foot. If you can't see it is going to come back and haunt you, well then I don't think you derserve that payraise anyway.
Given the choice between keeping my salary and having newhires join on lower payscale vs. having one joint payscale in between, ie. I take a paycut and the newguy gets the same (annual adjustments aside) I take the latter. It would unite the pilot group, make us stronger (yeah I'll keep dreaming) and all this bit c hing about A scalers, B scalers etc would not take place.... And I would poke the wife instead of spending time at the PC....well maybe not...
Going for a refill at the bar,
Cider30
I don't begrudge A scale for 1 millisecond. What I do tire of is A scalers complaning about their paycuts and conditions.
Unified payscale happened on my watch. I together with the rest of the pilot group let that happen, and I promise I will not complain when I don't get a raise while "C" scalers are fighting for them to get to B scale.
We should never have let different pay scales happen, but I won't go there, just say that if you let somebody in below you on lower pay/worse COS you are shooting youself in the foot. If you can't see it is going to come back and haunt you, well then I don't think you derserve that payraise anyway.
Given the choice between keeping my salary and having newhires join on lower payscale vs. having one joint payscale in between, ie. I take a paycut and the newguy gets the same (annual adjustments aside) I take the latter. It would unite the pilot group, make us stronger (yeah I'll keep dreaming) and all this bit c hing about A scalers, B scalers etc would not take place.... And I would poke the wife instead of spending time at the PC....well maybe not...
Going for a refill at the bar,
Cider30
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What a bunch of crap!!
Without sounding repetitious, I'm getting tired of the anti A scale rant. It clearly shows the lack of common sense and sophistication of some.
If I recall it correctly, those who joined in 93 said that they were willing to do my job for less money. Plain and simple. The result is that I have fallen way behind in pay. So, if I want to blame someone, the B scalers are the obvious choice. Yet, I don't as I probably would have done the same thing.
As time has marched on, others have come and said they would do the same job for even lesser pay. Now we have COSAP 08 a severe degradation of the contract. Using the elementary logic of some on this forum, what did the B scale crowd do to stop those accepting this even lesser scale.
Should someone decide to stay past 55, that is their choice, and their choice alone.
So children, the next time you rant against some particular group look at yourself and ask how you have contributed to the present predicament. Or better yet, what you haven't done to stop it.
Nighty night
If I recall it correctly, those who joined in 93 said that they were willing to do my job for less money. Plain and simple. The result is that I have fallen way behind in pay. So, if I want to blame someone, the B scalers are the obvious choice. Yet, I don't as I probably would have done the same thing.
As time has marched on, others have come and said they would do the same job for even lesser pay. Now we have COSAP 08 a severe degradation of the contract. Using the elementary logic of some on this forum, what did the B scale crowd do to stop those accepting this even lesser scale.
Should someone decide to stay past 55, that is their choice, and their choice alone.
So children, the next time you rant against some particular group look at yourself and ask how you have contributed to the present predicament. Or better yet, what you haven't done to stop it.
Nighty night
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Solidarity
It seems the "my gripe is bigger than yours" game continues.
A scalers
I can understand the A scale angst of not having received a payrise since 1996 - I can understand the apparent disparity of B scales getting payrises for much of their existence. But I think A scalers need to understand the size and scale of the disparity. As many point out, its not how much you earn that counts, its how much you have after costs of living are taken out. So if we assume B scales barely cover the cost of living then the fact that an A scaler on the same career path would earn about $6-10million more
than a B scaler must surely tweak some empathy for the B scaler plight?
B scalers
Most of us 'ole timers' joined an airline that seemed to specialize in largesse - 3 months profit share, almost 20% payrises, 3 years to command. Suddenly it was taken over by a corporate culture more akin to walmart. No more profit share, time to command slipped out to 10 years. Since that time we have suffered degradations to CoS, 3 year paycuts and ever diminishing levels of benefits - nibbled to death by a thousand ducks I think Nigel called it. Whilst our financial aspirations have had rather drastic reductions we have watched B scalers get 'improved' salary for many years.
So who has more right to feel aggrieved?
RA55/65 is a contentious issue. Whilst it may seem to be an A scale vs B scale issue, it isn't. Its a senior vs junior employee issue - or captain vs FO/SO issue. More than half our captains are B or C scalers. The issue is about the added degradation to career progression that RA65 would entail for those with less than 4 stripes.
Whether RA65 is legislatively required is arguable - it is definitely corporately desired. But CX wants to degrade the conditions of those that get extended and reduce or remove any bypass pay for those affected. We should ensure that those that work past 55 are extended with no degradation to CoS and that those whose commands are delayed are fairly compensated. I have already outlined how that can be done - its not rocket science!
CX is the 'bad guy' behind this - not A scales for joining early and having suffered degradation in career earnings and feeling aggrieved - not B scales for joining on lower salaries and then getting 'ancy' when an even greater blowout to time to command occurs. Blame the cause of the malaise - our corporate mismanagement cancer - not the symptoms!
Whatever 'deal' is offered - weigh it up in terms of the effects on you individually and to the pilot body in general.
CX - its just a job!
A scalers
I can understand the A scale angst of not having received a payrise since 1996 - I can understand the apparent disparity of B scales getting payrises for much of their existence. But I think A scalers need to understand the size and scale of the disparity. As many point out, its not how much you earn that counts, its how much you have after costs of living are taken out. So if we assume B scales barely cover the cost of living then the fact that an A scaler on the same career path would earn about $6-10million more
than a B scaler must surely tweak some empathy for the B scaler plight?
B scalers
Most of us 'ole timers' joined an airline that seemed to specialize in largesse - 3 months profit share, almost 20% payrises, 3 years to command. Suddenly it was taken over by a corporate culture more akin to walmart. No more profit share, time to command slipped out to 10 years. Since that time we have suffered degradations to CoS, 3 year paycuts and ever diminishing levels of benefits - nibbled to death by a thousand ducks I think Nigel called it. Whilst our financial aspirations have had rather drastic reductions we have watched B scalers get 'improved' salary for many years.
So who has more right to feel aggrieved?
RA55/65 is a contentious issue. Whilst it may seem to be an A scale vs B scale issue, it isn't. Its a senior vs junior employee issue - or captain vs FO/SO issue. More than half our captains are B or C scalers. The issue is about the added degradation to career progression that RA65 would entail for those with less than 4 stripes.
Whether RA65 is legislatively required is arguable - it is definitely corporately desired. But CX wants to degrade the conditions of those that get extended and reduce or remove any bypass pay for those affected. We should ensure that those that work past 55 are extended with no degradation to CoS and that those whose commands are delayed are fairly compensated. I have already outlined how that can be done - its not rocket science!
CX is the 'bad guy' behind this - not A scales for joining early and having suffered degradation in career earnings and feeling aggrieved - not B scales for joining on lower salaries and then getting 'ancy' when an even greater blowout to time to command occurs. Blame the cause of the malaise - our corporate mismanagement cancer - not the symptoms!
Whatever 'deal' is offered - weigh it up in terms of the effects on you individually and to the pilot body in general.
CX - its just a job!
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What everyone seems to forget, or indeed not know, is that B scales were not invented by A scalers. CX was going to B scales full stop. Pilots had already been shown the new scales as part of the first interview process and all were eager to accept them. What we did was accept a fait accompli for some benefits for ourselves, in return for endorsing the CX position. Once again, if you can be bothered to look back through the AOA files it's all there......
B scalers have no grounds to whine about A scalers or changing of conditions such as age 65, THEY started the rot by accepting lower pay scales and conditions, thus undercutting the ground the AOA of the time was standing on, and indeed sowing the seeds of the AOA weakness we see today...
B scalers have no grounds to whine about A scalers or changing of conditions such as age 65, THEY started the rot by accepting lower pay scales and conditions, thus undercutting the ground the AOA of the time was standing on, and indeed sowing the seeds of the AOA weakness we see today...
