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Extension Post 55

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Extension Post 55

Old 29th Mar 2008, 08:44
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 577
Post

Jagman, I agree with you about the DHL contracts disgrace, but there are unfortunately other precedents. The 'B' scale decision was purely decided on 'what's in it for me?' The choice was to continue with A scales with no pay rises or increase in conditions for those in the union at the time, or allow the company to introduce 'B' scales. I remember that no-one thought that anyone would take 'B' scales anyway........

The HKAOA, and in fact most airline unions, are really a Captains club, which is a result of the seniority systems we have endured over the years.
Kitsune is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 09:47
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,126
Captain's Club?

Hi Kits

My point really is that the AOA right now is anything but a Captain's Club. It's an FO/SO Club isn't it?
Hence my comment that CX had better compensate this group for a slowdown in advancement (perceived) or the negotiated 'package' will simply be rejected.
Basically, we have an AOA that represents the junior 50% of Cathay.
Arfur Dent is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 10:22
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 15
Just to throw in another variable here....

Assuming in the fullness of time that age 65 comes in and the by-pass pay is sorted out to everyones satisfaction:

Is everyone happy that the increments for Capts stop after 17yrs? No, seriously!! Why? After all, hopefully everyone will eventually get there, if they wish to stay on. This means (even when time to command increases), the vast majority will run out of increments before the age 65 limit. That means even longer on frozen pay scales at the top end of your "career" here. Is this acceptable?

Something else to be thrown in the negotiation pot?

Sheko.
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Old 29th Mar 2008, 10:26
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Romania
Posts: 8
Not sure "junior" or senior (for that matter) has any place in a democracy Jagman1....or are some more equal than others?
Also, given that we have Captains, f/o's AND s/o's the chances are pretty good that Captain's are a minority. One man, one vote.....for the good of the majority.....
Stratojet is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 10:34
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,126
Junior/Senior

Strato

Didn't mean any offence old chap! Just using generics but isn't the Captain more Senior than the FO? Maybe just older (normally). Anyway - you know what I meant. AOA represents the 'younger' element and if they pay their dues and there are more of them than the 'older' element - good on them!

Here's hoping the Company see sense and compensate adequately so that we can all get on with it. They'll have to look at increments too - maybe up to 30 - God forbid !

Last edited by Arfur Dent; 29th Mar 2008 at 10:36. Reason: add
Arfur Dent is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 11:55
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Not sure
Posts: 9
Compensating people only fixes part of the problem. There is also the grim reality of sitting in the right hand seat for the rest of your career. I'm sure some can hack it for a while but sooner or later most will get pi$$ed off with that.

It's a bit of a stretch to ask guys to remain enthusiastic and keen whilst flushing their careers down the S bend.
Max86 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 13:16
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 'round here
Posts: 394
Surviving

19 Line checks
38 RT/PC's

before assessment

Bwaaaa hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
stillalbatross is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 15:38
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 335
P File

StillA :

Yeah no kidding can you imagine what your ERAS file would look like after 19 years in the right seat !!! Bound to meet up with one of the pedants along the way.

Oh and wanted to make another point it is only 15+ years to passenger command, if you want to work for FO wages then you can have a command in less than one year here !

FG
Five Green is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 21:20
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Britain
Posts: 62
Money not Age

Retirement Age is not about age; it is about money. The Company has always had the ability to extend pilots on current conditions beyond NRA55. But they don't want to pay bypass, they don't want to pay A scale and they want to choose who stays. It's not about age it's about crewing the planes as cheaply as possible. It's about bigger bonuses. Money.

The Company is very happy with the compliant AOA leadership and they will be happy to use them to get NRA65 with reduced conditions with no bypass. The AOA are weak and easily manipulated and so the time is good. They will make hay while the sun shines because ST (rubber stamp) and his half-arsed 'negotiators' might be replaced this year. MG (49er sellout & RP04) & ST (C scales for new joiners) have been a gift from heaven for Management.

Last edited by simplex; 29th Mar 2008 at 21:50.
simplex is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2008, 02:00
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: home
Posts: 220
Simplex, past presidents have done very well thank you very much. Without them, we wouldn’t have resolved all the issues weighing us down since 2001.

They have done well serving a very pusillanimous pilot group.

You should be very proud of what they accomplished with what they are working with.

Yes it is all about money and we will not put money where is it not needed. We don’t have a problem retaining crew, so that group will not receive a payrise.

We have a problem with freighter captains, so the first number of years of freighter command received an increase. You get the picture, no need, no money.

Goodwill has a price but the pilot group is too stupid to realise this and most have been giving us goodwill free of charge for very long time. We compensate these individual in the form of EFP or GDO callout and most accept this form of payment. Again we thank those captains. Even without EFP pay, most feel the GDO compensation is more than adequate by the numbers accepting the GDO compensation.

The money we will save by reducing bypass pay and extending on B Scale pay and benefits will be extraordinary.

We will have very few pilots on the higher salary and benefits known as A scale. Most Captains are now on B scale and now the extenders will be on B scale, so you may even see another DHL letter sent to those pilots with another sign on the new B scale conditions or have your contract terminated. Again most will sign as they are too old to move onto other airlines and they have their money bucket somewhat full and will accept B Scale. We are in discussions now, so please standby.

The AOA survey is coming to a close very shortly and once again choose your answers wisely, especially the latter part of the questionnaire (thank you to the captain that supplied us with his user name and password). Some careers may depend on it and it may be yours.

Enjoy the Cathay Pacific Seven’s this weekend. Sitting in the Cathay Pacific Corporate Box and being served good food and drink makes me think I was a pilot but my package is much more. Now I know where some pilots get their superiority complex by having pretty girls serve them food and drink.

Thank you for My Bonus

The Management
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Old 8th Apr 2008, 05:17
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 13
Danger Slagging A-scale

What is it with guys slagging A-scale? They fought long,hard and at great expense to try and preserve conditions of service for all. Do the B-scale guys honestly expect people with 15-20 years service to toss it away when most careers reward experience and hard work? Isn't it a better plan to raise conditions for all rather than focus on bringing people down...the company has been doing that for years.I can imagine the response if 'C' scalers were bitching about B-scale....you signed on the dotted line...suck it up!
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Old 10th Apr 2008, 22:18
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Britain
Posts: 62
>Isn't it a better plan to raise conditions for all rather than focus on bringing people down

What a novel idea.
However in the meantime, as the CX pilot group has morphed to be dumber than dog shxt.........
The Management: is it part of your strategy to hire the industrially clueless?
To your bonus.

Last edited by simplex; 10th Apr 2008 at 22:35.
simplex is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2008, 08:13
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 85
Angry Any pilot who works past 55 is stealing another's promotion

If you work past 55 you are taking someone else's promotion.

If by the time you reach 55 you are not ready ($) to retire then it is your own fault (or greed) so don't get someone else (junior) to pay for it. F**K OFF!!!!!
cxlinedriver is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2008, 09:08
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 505
Cxlinedriver. What an intelligent, levelheaded analysis. How many years of education did it take to learn to write like that…profane and to the point?

As a well-seasoned debater with the teenaged mentality, allow me to return fire: Aren’t you putting the cart before the horse? I’d argue that someone with 17 years of “time-in” and seniority with this Company should have more of a say than someone with, I’m only guessing in your case, much less? You know…a proven commodity versus an unproven one…the way it is in every other major airline.

Greed? Not everyone joined Cathay in their twenties!

Working past 55 is a benefit every pilot can take advantage of. Some will, and some won’t. But even the most junior pilot would then benefit from bypass pay AND working past 55.
raven11 is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2008, 09:29
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Out there
Posts: 291
There's talk of the licence going to 70 in Europe, so watch this space!
Baywatcher is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2008, 15:53
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,126
Cxlinedriver rubbish

Why do you always assume that the only criteria for retiring is money? The world has moved on and retiring at age 55 is now outdated and old fashioned. Those of us older chaps who have given 20+ years of loyal service to CX (mostly in Command) deserve a little respect from upstarts like you. We don't wish to retire at 55. Legislation agrees with us - it is discriminatory to force us out because of our birthday. We're fighting already. You'll thank us when you're 54 - believe me.
Being ignorant and rude doesn't clarify your point - it just makes you look ignorant and rude.
Arfur Dent is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2008, 17:34
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 428
Quite honestly Jagman I have flown with some 20+ year pilots and mostly in command at CX and I can tell you “straight from the heart” that I have flown with better COMMANDERS on smaller aircraft. The size of your metal does not define you. Just because you are a commander, you may be lucky enough to have seniority but that does not make you a good commander.

Some 747-400 commanders out of Europe can be atrocious. Yes they are Senior Check and Training and should be not in that position. They don’t know how to train.

Repect is something you earn, not from your position of seniority. I have much respect for many First Officers because I can see the command potential in them.

Respect is something you earn FROM YOUR subordinates not from your peers IMHO. I suppose it goes both ways. Most likely there are juniors that don’t like flying with me but still treat them with respect.

Treat people how we all want to be treated, we all know who is in command it’s the bloke with 4 strips but most likely that bloke is not smarter, he just has seniority. I guess seniority makes you the god of all gods I suppose.

In North America with 3 Australia blokes (with no dis-respect) in falling snow, the second officer was from North America. Needless to say I listened to the Second Officer as experience is “I been there before”. He was lower rank but he saved my Ass. I have respect for him and I told him so.

But maybe I’m new school. There is no I in TEAM. Everyone can contribute.

I’ve been a lower rank and a higher rank, it’s still a team.

Too many drinks for smilies today I'm afraid.
Mr. Bloggs is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2008, 17:45
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BC
Age: 82
Posts: 103
BlueBogey wrote:
you signed on the dotted line...suck it up!
Thats right, the A-scalers signed a contract to retire at 55, and received pay allowing for that. Now when it comes time to honor that, you all whine like spoiled primma donnas.

So take your own advice...you signed the dotted line, suck it up and retire like a man.

iLuvPX is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2008, 17:47
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,126
Mr Bloggs

Couldn't agree more with you Bloggsy! Some STC's on all fleets seem to have charmed lives and shouldn't be there - especially some 747-400 in Europe (Who CAN we be thinking of?????). LMF from Senior Management allows them to continue for some reason.

Don't tar us all with the same brush and I'm pretty sure all those who fly with me wouldn't mind coming back. There is no 'I' in team??
Blyme - you'll be 'thinking out of the box' next!!!
Arfur Dent is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2008, 01:58
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hk
Age: 63
Posts: 151
Mr Bloggs......I don't think ripping into senior captains on a forums like this is helpful. Like you I have been here along time and most, if not all the captains I have flown with have been up to a high standard. Sure, the odd one has a personality that rubs people up the wrong way, but he is still a worthy captain.

Your story about how you listen to your second officer and your ass was saved brought tears of admiration..wow..you are one hellva modern day captain. And on the other side of the coin I have heard nothing but a load of crap from some of the crew..and I went on the advise of my 35yr expierence "gut" feeling.
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