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Extension Post 55

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Extension Post 55

Old 17th Mar 2008, 14:08
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Very small apatment
Posts: 9
My point is that I find the attitude of our A-scale colleagues rather selfish. After 18 plus years in Cx on A scale salaries, relatively short time to commands, I must now suddenly sympathize with them that they cannot be extended by a further 10 years - give me a break. Do they feel sympathy for delayed F/O's and S/O's trying to support a family in Hong Kong at reduced salaries while there children have already left home. Do they feel sympathy at S/O's and F/O's have there upgrades even further delayed - not for one minute. Do they feel sympathy for S/O's being upgraded out of seniority and the rest of us looking at a further 1-2 years, perhaps longer.

I find them arrogant because they have the audacity to mention on the flight deck that they have, after not being interested through out their career, decided to get into training just to extend. And don't mention the one about more C&T's will speed things up - even the old guy's have stopped playing that tired record. There CoS was always RA55 so what's the big surprise ??

Kitsund where are you based - England, of course should have guessed. Nice use of language but I won't be lowering myself to your level old chap.
Call me Skipper is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2008, 15:06
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 511
Extension Post 55

CMS...you are soo witty.

Ignoring the fact that there would be no A-Scale if people like you didn't join on B scale, or C scale, I am at a loss as to why your stereotypical A scaler is selfish..and you’re not?

I like your logic: someone else should sacrifice his or her career so you can advance yours. You don't sound selfish to me at all.

As you can guess, I am an A Scale pilot...and I haven't had a pay raise in 14 years! In fact, it's been cut (by 25% once). Has the pay package YOU signed and agreed to ever been cut...by even 1%???

I would think that working beyond age 55 would benefit all of us, you as well..Oh, no wait...you plan on retiring at 50.

We are all in this together, and it's easy to throw stones. But if you live in a glass house.....
raven11 is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2008, 16:56
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: HKG
Posts: 1,390
At least 10 of the extendees are B scale. Are you slating them as well or just whinging at A-scalers?
BusyB is online now  
Old 17th Mar 2008, 23:27
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: HK
Posts: 97
Rav Gimmie a break!
there wouldnt be a B scale unless you joined?
"there wouldnt be a B scale unless you let it happen in the first place!
But it didnt really affect you at the time did it!
CMS hit the nail on the head!
GANKER is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2008, 00:08
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 511
Extension Post 55

Ganker: "The A Scalers let the B scale happen"

Oh really? And who let ASL happen? Or C Scales? Direct Entry F/O? Or COS 08? Did you or CMS stop them?

We can play this game all day. My point to CMS was, and I'll repeat it for you, that we are all in this together; that working beyond 55 will help us all; and, that we all live in glass houses, so we shouldn't be throwing stones at each other.

Last edited by raven11; 18th Mar 2008 at 08:28.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 02:07
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 170
I agree with raven, although i am no A scale sympathiser, however as he mentions we all have to take some level of responsibility for the imposed C,D etc scales that have come to fruition in recent years.
Time to stop pointing fingers at ourselves, we have one common enemy, lets not forget that. We should only bring in RA55 with consent from the pilot body. If it is voted down then move on, if the package looks good then vote it up and move on. The point here is chaps, we should all be allowed to make an informed choice and the company should have to comply with it....until they make it more palatable!!
The company gets away with what they do because we are not acting as a solid unit, we have more cracks than a 5 day test pitch, and yet again we prove it here on PPRuNe.
Fenwicksgirl is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2008, 09:51
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 582

Time for a little history lesson, so sit back dearly beloved, and I will begin....
For all the vituperation against A scalers, it is a little remembered fact that the only reason that A scales came to be the envy of the aviation world was because the then pilots and flight engineers stuck together and threatened strike action. When Fern, Tucknott, Morris, Gilroy and Horsting were at top of the AOA the company stood up and took notice! A vote was held at the old Mariners Club over numerous grievances, and the majority result was a mandate for industrial action. Each Captain on the day the action was to start was handed a brown envelope with the instructions from the AOA committee inside, telling him how to carry out his part of the industrial action. Note that I said Captain, in those days it was accepted that ONLY the Captain could shoulder the responsibilty to carry out industrial action, and thus bear the consequences if the Company turned nasty. The result? The DFO marched into the Mariners Club and....capitulated.
The result was the increasing increment A scale payscale and the housing/medical/travel benefits that went with it. Solidarity and an acceptance of the AOA position even by those that voted against the motion made the management back down. It's worth remembering that the company was full of young guys and their families straight out of the various air forces, and Hong Kong was nowhere near the easy place to live it is now.....
So given all this, (easily readable in the HKAOA records if you don't believe that aircrew can act in their own common interest), having stood up to management in far more trying circumstances, why should A scalers reduce the conditions they won for guys who cower when 49 of th0eir colleagues are sacked for' no apparent reason? Or for some bograt just turned up who hasn't got the balls to stand up for himself when his conditions of service change for the worse?

(It is also worth noting a further example of solidarity amongst crew at the time, when a bunch of Captains paid for a fellow pilots mortgage when interest rates had shot so high his pay was less than his mortgage payment........)
Kitsune is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2008, 12:18
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 429

“Strike”, I think 90% of the pilots just wet themselves.

Are they the same guys who flew all the aircraft in 99 when everyone else was stressed? I guess they must have been F/O’s at the time you talk about.

Not many True Captains around these days.

Still see many Captains using discretion and working G days. They can do their own industrial action by showing no good will but I assume they are all happy with their conditions or more likely do it out of fear.

What was in the brown envelope? Where did you pick this envelope up? Where can I get one?
Mr. Bloggs is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2008, 03:34
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 234
history lesson part 2

Well written Kitsune.

Ahh....The good old days; most of the pilots living in the Sai Kung area, all meeting and drinking in the Cathay Club or the Aviaition Club, everyone knew each other. Only 4 or 500 crew.

Also, CX was expanding and had to hire us mercenaries and pay more than top dollar to get us out to this place in the Really Far East. So, as you say, we were the envy of the aviation world.

So look at the history from there - the following is not quite in chrono order but not too far off the mark.

Then things start to change. Long haul meant that the world could get here, and we could get there, non-stop. No longer was HKG the 'hardship posting' that it was and the bean counters realised it.

Cost controls came in, the usual high pay rises crept down until they stopped all together. Mr Nice Guy Sutch was behind it but Mr Eddington got the blame. Then the B scales came in and one of the names you mentioned atually proposed a solution of not letting them join the AOA A scale club so they would feel isolated and leave!! Evict the AOA to stop members going to the office.

And of course Basings. Start to scatter the troops around the world so they couldn't get together and plan resistance.

Airlines around the world got together to plan how to break the pilot unions power.

The way here was to split up the various interest groups and get them to argue with each other - worked so well we are still doing it.

Gilvarry was sacked - sorry, resigned (he didn't want to). Fern and Horsting end up in management, Morris too I think.

Poor old Tucknott left all on his own.

Pilots [email protected] shrunk, Thatcher like mentality of look after yourself and take all you can was the motto of the crews now. Pilots frightened themselves into being fearful. The 49ers frightened them even more. But can CX sack all pilots? No they can't as they wouldn't be able to run their money making machine.

So what can we learn from history?

A lot if we apply some brain power. All for one and one for all used to be the motto. Get that back and we can stop this pathetic whining and start to do something about it.
AnAmusedReader is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2008, 12:09
  #50 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 582

So what's everyones' opinion of where we are NOW?
Kitsune is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2008, 12:58
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: home
Posts: 223
You are finished.

Accept what we are willing to give and support your AOA so we can re-negotiate your contract.

Never question anyone in FOP management and accept their opinion.

Use your good will to complete the operation.

The sooner you accept this the sooner you will be happy.

To My Bonus

The Management
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Old 28th Mar 2008, 17:51
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 582

I've got x months to do before retiring on my A scale p fund, so you may insert your bonus in any convenient orifice matey.....
Kitsune is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2008, 18:06
  #53 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,124
Wink 're-negotiate your contract'

The only reason FOPS has to re-negotiate anything is that they failed miserably to either carry out a process of due diligence relating to the Employment Laws of the UK that they purported to be obeying (sic) or hire someone (a Barrister?) to do it for them.

This was an embarrassing climbdown at the 11th hour caused purely by the AOA researching the problem properly when FOPS Management didn't. The Base goes onshore in just over a week for Heavens sake!!

Re-negotiate all you like, but unless you give them something substantial (and expensive) the AOA members will throw it back in your faces.

I suspect the reason that the two main protaganists in this farce have disappeared from sight is to reconsider their futures. (Special inclusion of the word THEIR to keep up Mr m's education - spelling properly may improve your CV - you're going to need it).
Arfur Dent is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2008, 22:51
  #54 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BC
Age: 82
Posts: 104
Re-negotiate all you like, but unless you give them something substantial (and expensive) the AOA members will throw it back in your faces.
Yeah!!! They are going to throw it back in Cathay's face just like they did B-scale...oh, i mean ASL...uhhh, i mean sacking the 49ers...humm, rostering practices????? Anyone help, im out of ideas.
iLuvPX is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 00:23
  #55 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 335
Something for nothing

It is not about A scale B scale.... It is about giving up more of my life to this company with no compensation.

The one thing I would like all our pilots nearing 55 to think about is this :

If we agree to extend with little or no compensation for junior crew, (below the rank of Captain) the end result is that over our careers to 65 we will not earn 10 years more pay. We will only earn 7 or so depending on how close to command you are now. Or if the retirement only goes to 60 (Only!) we will not get the equivalent of five more years pay either !!

So would any of you near retirement agree to give up three years pay to extend thereby making it fair for everybody ?


Last edited by Five Green; 29th Mar 2008 at 00:25. Reason: syntax error
Five Green is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 01:10
  #56 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 'round here
Posts: 394
Unfortunately it is all about who gets what.
The company isn't going to pay to extend A scale and provide renumeration to those affected by an increase in age 65 which conveniently will probably work out to be everyone who joined after Jan 01 2000.
Command is now minimum 12 years, the days of 8 or 9 years to command finished this month with ASL taking all pax commands from here on in for quite some time. Add on RA65 and it goes to 17 or 18, look at the market realistically with downturns as well and plenty will see 18-20 yrs to command at Cathay.
Do the numbers. Bloke A joined in 1990, Bloke B joined in 2000, both 30 yrs old at DOJ. Both with 1500 Boeing narrowbody time. Bloke A got command at 35, Bloke B at 49.

Both go to 65, on current conditions, one will retire with well under a third of what the other will retire with.
That's life, the union supports Bloke A over Bloke B. There are good times and bad times to be in Cathay and for anyone who joined as S/O in 2000 or later, hard luck.

Live with it.
stillalbatross is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 04:06
  #57 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Not sure
Posts: 9
This may explain why so many senior F/O's are going to Jetstar.
Max86 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 06:16
  #58 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 335
You nailed it !!!

StillA :

And that my friend is exactly why no pilot here below the rank of Captain will vote for an increase in retirement age !

We don't have to live with it...we can resist it...

They can force it on us but then at least we can use the courts.

Yeah I know but I am willing to wait...........til it freezes.......

Five Green is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 07:43
  #59 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 51
Five Green

...we will not earn 10 years more pay. We will only earn 7 or so depending on how close to command you are now....
So it is worth something then? Not 10 years, I admit, but 7 years towards the top of the pay scale is still something, isn't it?

Millstream is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2008, 08:12
  #60 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,124
iLuvpx rubbish

To iLuvpx I say this:-
You can harp on all you like about who did what to whom in the past but I dare suggest that when a contract comes to your house courtesy of DHL that you sign or be fired, you will think very carefully about your family and your future - and sign.

ASL and the '49ers are still haunting the bully-boys at CX (TT is a prime example) so it ain't over yet by a long way. Revenge is always sweet - it doesn't have to be quick.

As for now, the AOA (I'm still a member after all these years) will vote down RA65 unless CX comes up with some REAL compensation for junior ranks. If CX push through whatever they like - as in the past - then they will end up paying in court anyway. Their choice.

CX have manoeuvred themselves into a corner and they know they are in a weak position contractually. What does a coward do when cornered at a disadvantage?? Give in and slink off.
Watch this space and stop crowing about the past - about which you probably know only what you've heard.
Arfur Dent is offline  

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