Extension Post 55
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Jagmans respect and the 55 issue
I'm normally a reader
, not a writer, but here goes - and my fire extinguisher is ready!!
First off Jagman, nobody 'deserves' respect, one has to earn it. With an attitude like that, you tar all cmdrs with the very same brush you mentioned. I'd personally like to think that any respect ever shown to me was NOT because of the uniform or position, but because of what has been 'earned' through showing all the good attributes which make a good skipper.
Secondly, with regard to the flying beyond 55 comments, may I submit the following personal viewpoints.
I'm A scale, quite old but both plan and hope to leave at 55
. I'm a better pilot than financial guru, I haven't made stacks of moolah, definately wouldnt be classed as wealthy, but I would like to enjoy life ex-cx when I'm 55 and still young enough to enjoy it. Many of my colleagues of similar vintage also still plan to leave at 55, but probably with significantly more $$ than I!.
I personally do not believe the companies raising of retirement age will be the wonder pill to cure their retention and attraction problems that they think it will be. Very few of my friends are planning to stay, and of those, very few indicate they may only stay an extra year or two at the most. I'm not that niaive to know that when the big 55 time comes, that there may well be a few more who will stay. However, the overall feeling I get is that not many will stay, and those that do will not stay for long.
Clearly, regardless of the propoganda, any extension will have to have some negative effect on command times, and I believe the individuals affected should continue to receive bypass pay in compensation for the company being able to retain an experienced bum, and I use the term loosely, in the LHS. Presently such anti-feeling from the non-cmdrs may also be amplified by the trashies getting a second "once only" offer, details of which I admit to not being fully conversant with, but am led to believe may also further reduce the number of Cmd courses available. However thats a different story, and one I believe the union (of which I've been a member for 20yrs), should be getting its teeth into
.
Whilst not intending to give a history lesson to iLuvPX, what people sign for and what they leave with later on, can be better or worse or a combination of both. Thus is the evolving nature of negotiations and impositions.
For example: sometime after I joined, and signed on the dotted line you refer to, one of the years profit share was 2.99 months,
payscales were good, we worked 70 hours, and you trusted the DFO.
Compare with the present situation where one now treats every bit of communication coming from the DFO's empire with either amusement, suspicion or contempt
. Profit share in general $$ terms continues to decline, we now work more than the 70 hrs on my original dotted line, 84 seems to be a minimum and it is often in the 90's.
Whilst A scale hasnt seen a pay rise in about a decade, it was unceremoniously and ignominiously subject to an offer of "take the large% pay cut or you're fired". My personal cut was 26-27%
. I didnt sign on the dotted line for that when I joined !! Nowhere did it say in my 80's contract "in a few years we will give you the choice of vaseline or a gun". But it did happen, I didn't forget, I learnt and moved on.
During this period, the B scale guys, who we thought would never have joined and signed up for such a ridiculously low salary scale, still arrived, and were being given gradual pay rises. Where do you think the money came from for the B scale pay raises? I'm no accountant, but I can make a reasonable guess at where the money came from for such pay rises. Yup, the Flt Ops budget to which my fellow A scalers and my self contributed. But as they say, no use
over spilt milk, it's done - we move on. We just don't forget.
So we come to flying beyond 55. Do we have to stay? No of course not. But is it correct that we have the option to stay if we wish, yes I believe so, especially if that is the way the industry is moving, but ONLY if the young lads who are being disadvantaged are compensated in some way.
So perhaps the young lads who currently see this as an 'only good for A scales' type deal, could look at this as a good for ALL. Don't believe me, check the seniority list. There are a lot of B scale guys who are not very far away from age 55 , and whilst they all chose to come on the B scale, I'm sure some of them would like the chance to earn a few more bucks, or not have to spend 100% of their post 55 time with a missus he can't stand or afford to get rid of
.
So iLuvPX why dont you quit whinging
, spend said time you would normally use for whinging, in trying to get more of your colleagues to join the union thus gaining a more representative AOA with greater bargaining power.
Maybe this A scale versus B scale slanging can be put to bed soon, as it clearly does our combined cause no good
, all it does is enhance the companies divide and conquer strategy. The 49'ers have been conveniently forgotten by many, never known by other recent joiners, however many of the perpetrators are still up there plotting to erode your COS. Why do their work for them, lets work together and work for us as a combined pilot group, wether we be A,B,C or trashies. So howzabout a little less infighting guys . (well mebe not the trashies
)
Time to go back to being just a reader again, well at least until the next time my bull**** antenna twitches.
Kindest regards to all, old fella out.
, not a writer, but here goes - and my fire extinguisher is ready!! First off Jagman, nobody 'deserves' respect, one has to earn it. With an attitude like that, you tar all cmdrs with the very same brush you mentioned. I'd personally like to think that any respect ever shown to me was NOT because of the uniform or position, but because of what has been 'earned' through showing all the good attributes which make a good skipper.
Secondly, with regard to the flying beyond 55 comments, may I submit the following personal viewpoints.
I'm A scale, quite old but both plan and hope to leave at 55
. I'm a better pilot than financial guru, I haven't made stacks of moolah, definately wouldnt be classed as wealthy, but I would like to enjoy life ex-cx when I'm 55 and still young enough to enjoy it. Many of my colleagues of similar vintage also still plan to leave at 55, but probably with significantly more $$ than I!. I personally do not believe the companies raising of retirement age will be the wonder pill to cure their retention and attraction problems that they think it will be. Very few of my friends are planning to stay, and of those, very few indicate they may only stay an extra year or two at the most. I'm not that niaive to know that when the big 55 time comes, that there may well be a few more who will stay. However, the overall feeling I get is that not many will stay, and those that do will not stay for long.
Clearly, regardless of the propoganda, any extension will have to have some negative effect on command times, and I believe the individuals affected should continue to receive bypass pay in compensation for the company being able to retain an experienced bum, and I use the term loosely, in the LHS. Presently such anti-feeling from the non-cmdrs may also be amplified by the trashies getting a second "once only" offer, details of which I admit to not being fully conversant with, but am led to believe may also further reduce the number of Cmd courses available. However thats a different story, and one I believe the union (of which I've been a member for 20yrs), should be getting its teeth into
.Whilst not intending to give a history lesson to iLuvPX, what people sign for and what they leave with later on, can be better or worse or a combination of both. Thus is the evolving nature of negotiations and impositions.
For example: sometime after I joined, and signed on the dotted line you refer to, one of the years profit share was 2.99 months,
payscales were good, we worked 70 hours, and you trusted the DFO.
Compare with the present situation where one now treats every bit of communication coming from the DFO's empire with either amusement, suspicion or contempt
. Profit share in general $$ terms continues to decline, we now work more than the 70 hrs on my original dotted line, 84 seems to be a minimum and it is often in the 90's. Whilst A scale hasnt seen a pay rise in about a decade, it was unceremoniously and ignominiously subject to an offer of "take the large% pay cut or you're fired". My personal cut was 26-27%
. I didnt sign on the dotted line for that when I joined !! Nowhere did it say in my 80's contract "in a few years we will give you the choice of vaseline or a gun". But it did happen, I didn't forget, I learnt and moved on.During this period, the B scale guys, who we thought would never have joined and signed up for such a ridiculously low salary scale, still arrived, and were being given gradual pay rises. Where do you think the money came from for the B scale pay raises? I'm no accountant, but I can make a reasonable guess at where the money came from for such pay rises. Yup, the Flt Ops budget to which my fellow A scalers and my self contributed. But as they say, no use
over spilt milk, it's done - we move on. We just don't forget.So we come to flying beyond 55. Do we have to stay? No of course not. But is it correct that we have the option to stay if we wish, yes I believe so, especially if that is the way the industry is moving, but ONLY if the young lads who are being disadvantaged are compensated in some way.
So perhaps the young lads who currently see this as an 'only good for A scales' type deal, could look at this as a good for ALL. Don't believe me, check the seniority list. There are a lot of B scale guys who are not very far away from age 55 , and whilst they all chose to come on the B scale, I'm sure some of them would like the chance to earn a few more bucks, or not have to spend 100% of their post 55 time with a missus he can't stand or afford to get rid of
.So iLuvPX why dont you quit whinging
, spend said time you would normally use for whinging, in trying to get more of your colleagues to join the union thus gaining a more representative AOA with greater bargaining power.Maybe this A scale versus B scale slanging can be put to bed soon, as it clearly does our combined cause no good
, all it does is enhance the companies divide and conquer strategy. The 49'ers have been conveniently forgotten by many, never known by other recent joiners, however many of the perpetrators are still up there plotting to erode your COS. Why do their work for them, lets work together and work for us as a combined pilot group, wether we be A,B,C or trashies. So howzabout a little less infighting guys . (well mebe not the trashies)Time to go back to being just a reader
again, well at least until the next time my bull**** antenna twitches.Kindest regards to all, old fella out.
Last edited by mephisto88; 12th Jan 2009 at 06:55.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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mephisto88.
Well done. A very well thought out and balanced analysis that takes into consideration all pilots, and all scales, in the Company. We are all in this together, and it's important to remember that.
As I've said repeatedly, extension past 55 is an option/benefit every pilot can take advantage of. At the same time, bypass pay must be paid to those affected.
Let's all have a respectable and dignified dialogue. Full stop.
Well done. A very well thought out and balanced analysis that takes into consideration all pilots, and all scales, in the Company. We are all in this together, and it's important to remember that.
As I've said repeatedly, extension past 55 is an option/benefit every pilot can take advantage of. At the same time, bypass pay must be paid to those affected.
Let's all have a respectable and dignified dialogue. Full stop.
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If we all treat all info that comes form the third ( and higher ) floors with distrust and disbelief as many have claimed here then why is the bypass pay situation still allowed to be such a secret?
If you don't trust management why do you allow them to keep secret who gets it and who doesn't.
The least the AOA should be doing is keeping count of DEFO and post 55 extensions and publish some sort of list so we can see what's going on...
AOA - I know you read this. Lets see a list!!!
If you don't trust management why do you allow them to keep secret who gets it and who doesn't.
The least the AOA should be doing is keeping count of DEFO and post 55 extensions and publish some sort of list so we can see what's going on...
AOA - I know you read this. Lets see a list!!!
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Jagman,
You mentioned MFL. Seen here making a guest appearance......
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QJxzDYJ4C3Y
You mentioned MFL. Seen here making a guest appearance......
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QJxzDYJ4C3Y
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MFL
Mate i never had a problem with him - he does his job-do you? You seem to have the problem- are you under confident? Feel inferior? Stop making personal slag offs on this site, no names thanks and get on ith what you do do best- whatever that may be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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mephisto,
great post!
Out of interest, the pay cuts applied to A scales in 99 gave savings three times greater than the cost of giving the 99-01 payrises to B scales. Since there were no payrises from 02-07(incl) the staff savings from the paycuts were still greater than the previously given payrises. I haven't checked but even given the diminishing number of A scales and the company's excessive Jan 08 pay rise, I think the savings still outweigh the costs.
So, simply put, the cost per pilot has not gone up since 1999!
great post!
Out of interest, the pay cuts applied to A scales in 99 gave savings three times greater than the cost of giving the 99-01 payrises to B scales. Since there were no payrises from 02-07(incl) the staff savings from the paycuts were still greater than the previously given payrises. I haven't checked but even given the diminishing number of A scales and the company's excessive Jan 08 pay rise, I think the savings still outweigh the costs.
So, simply put, the cost per pilot has not gone up since 1999!
