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They ARE hurting...

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

They ARE hurting...

Old 17th Dec 2007, 23:38
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near By
Posts: 25
... Why not pick up the phone on a G day?

It really is very simple ....
  • No.1 It may be that O day later in the week they are stealing off you.
  • No.2 They could be giving you a 9 am duty for that day of reserve you thought would start at 9pm
  • No.3 Your MNL turnaround reporting at 3pm has just become a Bali turnaround reporting at 8 am
  • No.4 Too many "cannots" will get you a nice little "uncooperative" flag on your Crew Control profile and a secret letter sent to your P File (secret because you will only see it when you ask to look at your file)

Last edited by CXpletive; 18th Dec 2007 at 00:04. Reason: ..
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 01:58
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: U.S.
Posts: 341
... Why not pick up the phone on a G day?
Because if you do, then you are simply helping them to push the problem to the back burner. If they were properly crewed, then they wouldn't need to be calling all of us every other day for months!! If you want to modify your schedule, use the request system, mutual exchange or proffering board. If you don't ever answer the phone, then you won't get that "secret letter", because you haven't been uncooperative!!

box
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 03:44
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ceduna
Posts: 132
cc ring crew memeber during rest period

Thought it was UNINTERRUPTED rest! How can you rest/sleep if some ******** from hong kong rings you in the middle of your rest and asks you to work in 6 hours?
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 04:35
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: MARS
Posts: 158
Was just looking at jumpseats in january...and 4 out of 5 possible flights have NO cockpit crew rostered!!!

Critically short of crew..I DO say!!!
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 05:09
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: heads down trying to figure out Chinese RVSM
Posts: 195
Yup !

Desperate times certainly are calling for desperate measures.

Hmm....could the "cannot" factor be turning around to bite CC in the arse ?
They deserve what they get !

Being flagged for not willing to help regardless of the reason is illegal as well as contrary to Vol 1's intimidation clause. Certainly JF being a solicitor by trade, would be able to assist in this matter
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Old 18th Dec 2007, 15:17
  #26 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 165
Well now. The realtime roster is out. Have a good look at all the longhauls out of HKG. There are numerous crew missing from the crewlists. See for yourselves. Also, don't forget to peruse the inbound flights. When you are asked to operate back 3-man to HKG and the reason is 'last minute sickness', feel free to ask who the sickee is and check their roster to see if they were ever rostered for that flight. You see, 'last minute sickness' is the easiest excuse to use. It is hard to track down and makes us feel guilty that one of our own is lettting the side down by calling in sick. That means we almost feel obligated to fill the gap. Remember good people, this company spends millions to use psycho babble crap against ourselves
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Old 19th Dec 2007, 12:57
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Posts: 16
What not do do for CX....

Gents, this is great stuff, and a post detailing all this detail of what we "do not have to do for CX" should be kept current and updated so that we don't have to keep reinventing the wheel and those interested can be easily educated. Let's call it something other than "contract compliance" for the moment - perhaps something like "an informal guide to your rights at CX".

We constantly fight with Crew Control to upkeep our rights, and often lose out because we are inexperienced and ignorant with respect to the rostering legalities under which we operate. This knowledge should be something that espoused by the AOA and promoted to all new joiners, but the chances of an AOA-led initiative seem remote at best.

Is it feasible to amalgamate comments and explanations and maintain such a post as a "sticky"? - surely someone with considerable experience would be the best bet...anybody? NC?

TM
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 00:12
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 43
Keep transmitting

Hopefully people are taking notice of this post and it will encourage those not engaged in the "phoney war" (to coin a 1939 phrase) to join the ranks. The GC aren't pushing it (for some unfathomable reason) so it is up to us.

My last 2 long haul flights had F/O's who had responded to CC and were working on G days. Every day it seems they are relying on the goodwill of others to achieve thier requirements. A little more pressure and they are done!

So lets keep pushing the message at every opportunity to get people on board. Now is the time, delaying only helps the company achieve manning levels and await a downturn in the market.

Before you accept that G day payment ("I need the money....) think that if we could bring pressure to bear you could get that extra money plus more every month through a long overdue realistic base pay rate increase.

Please DO NOT WORK on G days! Do not acknowledge Crew Direct. Enjoy your days off with family or Friends.
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 00:17
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 347
My last 2 long haul flights had F/O's who had responded to CC and were working on G days.
And their reason for doing so was....
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 00:41
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 43
reason

Money. Hence my point about short term pain for long term gain. I think they saw the logic in my arguement but who knows if they were swayed. If only we were all half Vulcan....
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 02:12
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 619
Working or not on time off is up to the individual. Some have decided that they would prefer not to. Chastising those that do does nothing useful other than further divide a fractious membership. Until we are directed NOT to work on G days it should be completely up to the individual. As I mentioned before, there was an argument amongst the GC many years ago that we should have a 'helpful' campaign for a few months followed by Contract Compliance.

Action without direction is wasted!
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 02:20
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 347
Numero,

Action without direction is wasted!
We all know what action is required.

It seems that getting the AOA to give the direction is what is needed. One can only write so many emails of suggestion to the AOA.

As an ex GC member what do you suggest is needed to make the ST & the GC act?
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 06:04
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Posts: 36
Unified Rosters

Guys/Girls,
I wondered if the first of the unified rosters has been produced?


Does anyone have any information on say the roster for LHR.

However, I am trying to find out how many times I might fly the freighter pattern since I have two children under five and some stability and pattern to my roster is essential.

Cathay state that I would fly the pax fleet mainly, with occasional freighter flights.

I wondered what your thoughts are?

I have not yet resigned from my current employer, which offers me a reasonable future in short/medium haul out of the UK.

Difficult decision.

I'd really appreciate any constructive feedback / information.

Thanks very much.

Katanaman

Last edited by Katanaman; 20th Dec 2007 at 06:45.
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 07:03
  #34 (permalink)  
jtr
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: .
Posts: 686
Katanaman

The current rostering practices are mined with "other than in abnormal circumstances" "will not normally be" etc which hold absolutely no water.

As an e.g. I had a change to my roster while at the outport which contravened a "other than in abnormal circumstances" paragraph. I asked what the abnormal circumstances were that lead to the change, to which they replied "we are short of crew". My answer "but you are always short of crew, that is not an abnormal circumstance" They came back with, "it is legal, are you refusing the duty?"

Flight Tim Limitations is a misnomer, in CX they are treated as Flight Time Goals, and as such unless it is in black and white, AND not open to interpretation, expect it to be abused by the company.
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 07:43
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,120
Katanama, the fact that over 40 fo's have resigned from the Freighter fleet during the last 8-10 months. That should give you an idea on how crap the conditions are on the freighter pool and on how short they are on the it as well.

If your family is as important to you as you mention, you also need to think that once you are senior enough to become a captain, there will most probably be no Captain slots for you at home( The bases are really tight for Captains already), so you might have to move your whole family to HKG with its super polluted air.
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 08:06
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Posts: 36
Thank you

Thanks guys for the information. I'm very reluctant to leave present employer (which is fine, but like all has its little problems) to go to a place with so much uncertainty.

The one thing I have is a very stable roster and I've realised this is not the norm in the industry.

The experience at Cathay city (hard, like joining the army) was something I'm glad I have done, but being a legacy airline, Cathay cannot just hope we jump without fair and non-transparent terms and conditions. Not knowing what a unified roster looks like and having a clear understanding of the freighter commitment makes the decision impossible.

I find this really disappointing and very frustrating.

Yes, the family is important, because if I cannot predict my life style and it turns out to be a nightmare, there will be no family to return home to, so this has to be top of the list when making a move to another company.

Command is not everything, I'd rather put lift style first, but I hear you loud and clear on the small number of CPT positions with Cathay in the UK.

Thanks again everyone out there who has kindly replied.

Merry Christmas
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 08:36
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 347
Katanaman

Yes, the family is important, because if I cannot predict my life style and it turns out to be a nightmare, there will be no family to return home to, so this has to be top of the list when making a move to another company.
Very true.

As Dan says

The whole reason for the Unified FO is so that they can crew the freighter, so yes, you will be flying the freighter A LOT.

I wouldn't put much trust in what CX tells you. In fact, assume the opposite
Does this sound like you will maintain your family lifestyle?

If this is what you want to protect then you are better to stay where you are.
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 13:35
  #38 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 165
Are you refusing a duty?

A phrase we hear every time we question a duty. These guys know that phrase immediately puts us on the defensive. These psychological games are used all the time by the Cathay Group. Something the AOA unfortunately refuses to deal with effectively. Not entirely their fault, but at the same time very avoidable in some recent negotiations(RP04 being a classic). The wording on so many of our rules is so ambiguous that it's simply not worth saying 'no' unless you are 200% sure of your position. Even then, the AOA reccommends that you say 'yes' and seek redress later. Unfortunately, the damage is already done(to our roster stability) and CX once again escapes inconveniencing itself. The hassle of following it up is also a factor. Yet another reason not to answer your phone or acknowledge Crew Direct.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 15:07
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Not over the Rockies anymore.
Posts: 241
Reading a lot of the post on here, I get the feeling that your AoA is basically useless.
Why would anyone in their right mind join/pay for something useless??
Just because it's cool, because everyone else is doing it?
I'm not opposed to joining a union, but I will not pay for anything useless.
Maybe it's time to form a useful union.
I recommed a visit to a cattle farm in Wyoming to find a good leader. I hear the bulls have enormous balls!
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Old 23rd Dec 2007, 01:27
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Asia
Posts: 173
Reading a lot of the post on here, I get the feeling that your AoA is basically useless.
Why would anyone in their right mind join/pay for something useless??
Just because it's cool, because everyone else is doing it?
I'm not opposed to joining a union, but I will not pay for anything useless.
Maybe it's time to form a useful union.
I recommed a visit to a cattle farm in Wyoming to find a good leader. I hear the bulls have enormous balls!
lol.. I am starting to wonder myself what the point of being a member is.
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