How many are leaving CX ?
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Actually joining CX
BScaler, I agree with you. As much as I was keen to join CX but with these new conditions, I am staying put until they decided to review their offer. Im not the only one either, i know half a dozen guys personally who were all on the verge of joining CX, all with minimum 2500hrs wide-body and with internaltional long haul ops. They all pulled the plug on their application due to this new CofS08 offer.
Anyway will keep an ear to the ground and see if conditions improve. Otherwise a little birdy told me that the MIDDLE EAST airlines are about to increase salary again to attract qualified guys. Seems the penny has dropped and realising a/c will be grounded they are working on new packages. Anyway just a rumour but seems plausible and mate already working in EK seems to be a reliable source.
Cheers
Anyway will keep an ear to the ground and see if conditions improve. Otherwise a little birdy told me that the MIDDLE EAST airlines are about to increase salary again to attract qualified guys. Seems the penny has dropped and realising a/c will be grounded they are working on new packages. Anyway just a rumour but seems plausible and mate already working in EK seems to be a reliable source.
Cheers
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Me Too
I recently turned down the 744. My main concern was the lack of roster clarification. The terms & conditions are secondary to me (but they have obviously been eroded), but when a huge airline like Cathay cannot even commit itself to some predictable and meaningful roster, places like Easyjet win hands down.
I always wanted to fly long haul with a successful world airline, but history and an impressive corporate building in HK, was not enough to distract me from what is essentially a rubbish offer.
I worked for many years to get to my current position with 6000hrs and I will not throw it away on a look / see kind of option. I hope Cathay wake up soon, because people are getting very wise.
I always wanted to fly long haul with a successful world airline, but history and an impressive corporate building in HK, was not enough to distract me from what is essentially a rubbish offer.
I worked for many years to get to my current position with 6000hrs and I will not throw it away on a look / see kind of option. I hope Cathay wake up soon, because people are getting very wise.
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XCX-SOHAPPY, regardless of whether you are correct or not, mentioning a mates name on a rumour forum is just off-side. Use their thread name, if you must. I understand the point you are trying to make, but there are many others that have done the same thing (although mentioning their names on this forum isn't exactly cool either).
If you have a problem with him, bring it up personally. Do something proactive; if you are doing something, feel free to shed some light on the subject. Your comment doesn't help any, trust me. Not too professional, don't you think?
If you have a problem with him, bring it up personally. Do something proactive; if you are doing something, feel free to shed some light on the subject. Your comment doesn't help any, trust me. Not too professional, don't you think?
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XCX-SOHAPPY, regardless of whether you are correct or not, mentioning a mates name on a rumour forum is just off-side. Use their thread name, if you must. I understand the point you are trying to make, but there are many others that have done the same thing (although mentioning their names on this forum isn't exactly cool either).
The fact that he was hired on at CX with 1000 hours of GA experience at age 24 and it only took a few years before he was heard saying how he was unhappy with CX's hirings of new "young punks" should tell you what type of trainer he will be.
Brace yerselves 777 boys and girls.
Last edited by XCX-SOHAPPY; 25th Dec 2007 at 17:53.
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Cathay acts like a career airline and pays like a post 9-11 legacy carrier. Issues that my american amigos mention to me frequently;
-moving career goalposts - time to command moving beyond 13+ years
-carrot of early freighter command is mostly illusory
-hoops required to 'jump through' for command keep multilplying
-CX culture is most definitely not easy for those from more relaxed environments - thing brad pitts puckerhole in a prison shower - "toight"
-no post retirement fringe benefits such as medical
Well put together, you pretty much covered all the reasons why my new goal is to slip out of here below the 1 year mark. I would add that insult of a pay raise as well.
-moving career goalposts - time to command moving beyond 13+ years
-carrot of early freighter command is mostly illusory
-hoops required to 'jump through' for command keep multilplying
-CX culture is most definitely not easy for those from more relaxed environments - thing brad pitts puckerhole in a prison shower - "toight"
-no post retirement fringe benefits such as medical
Well put together, you pretty much covered all the reasons why my new goal is to slip out of here below the 1 year mark. I would add that insult of a pay raise as well.
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I have to say that, although I think that mentioning names on a public forum is cowardice, the point that BScaler was making (and what brought on XCX's comment) is worth thinking about.
As a pilot group, we seem to give everything away. It could (and I am sure will) be argued that the training area is no different. It's great to have good guys in training, but with everyone lining up for a training position under the current situation, it is no surprise that we cannot negotiate a better deal.
Consider how the cabin crew fought hard for some medical issues that would seemingly have cost no more than 1,000 HK each per year. Yet pilots quietly take much harsher and deeper cuts. Good on the cabin crew; too bad we can't protect our profession with such solidarity (or even officially show the cabin crew our support...).
That being said, using a name on a public forum under any situation (especially while the rest of us remain anonymous) is pretty sad.
As a pilot group, we seem to give everything away. It could (and I am sure will) be argued that the training area is no different. It's great to have good guys in training, but with everyone lining up for a training position under the current situation, it is no surprise that we cannot negotiate a better deal.
Consider how the cabin crew fought hard for some medical issues that would seemingly have cost no more than 1,000 HK each per year. Yet pilots quietly take much harsher and deeper cuts. Good on the cabin crew; too bad we can't protect our profession with such solidarity (or even officially show the cabin crew our support...).
That being said, using a name on a public forum under any situation (especially while the rest of us remain anonymous) is pretty sad.
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Spoke to one 400 FO yesterday who is waiting for VB. Another 400 FO is on his way as soon as the offer he is awaiting arrives. First one is under one year service.The other is over. A third one has just had a successful interview for a job in Europe. His resignation is imminent. By the time management realise that the tipping point has arrived it will be too late. Not only will we not have enough crew to fly the programme, we will not be able to get them. The word is out that CX is not a great deal anymore. There is dry rot within the company. It spreads from crew through to Crew Control who are overwhelmed with the task. The paint job may look good but the core is rotting away.
What has happened to bring CX to the position where folk are leaving us for LCCs and charter jet operators?
What has happened to bring CX to the position where folk are leaving us for LCCs and charter jet operators?
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What has happened to bring CX to the position where folk are leaving us for LCCs and
Simple. Management have adopted a LCC/charter mentality in dealing with crew and the broader operation. We have succumbed to their prolonged fear and intimidation campaign. Too much talk and no action. I don't see our lot improving. We have ourselves to blame. Put yourself in the management shoes. Why offer us a superior deal? They know that we'll just roll over and take it up the a$$ everytime. History has proven that in CX. Alot can be learnt from our KA colleagues in recent times. I really do admire the guys that have left for greener pastures. A courageous move. I wish them all well.
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For many of us any interest in working for Cathay was removed by what happened to the 49'ers....not really interested in being part of a workforce that gets treated that way regardless of who was right or wrong. It's seems to me as an outsider that things have gone downhill there since that time.
As a potential applicant heres what would discourage me from even applying.
1- a fairly negative management/workforce relationship
2- a bit of an overkill type of interview process
3- consistent rumours of a negative training environment
4- constantly degrading pay scales...instead of increases to keep up with cost of living they keep offering lower CoS
5- worries about quality of life in HK with regards to crowding and pollution
And before all the flames come roaring my way, no i never applied, and yes it's possible that i wouldn't have passed selection if i had. The point is due to all of that i wasn't even interested in applying at the end of the day. Some or all of he above may not be true, but that's the reputation Cathay has to alot of potential experienced recruits right now.
As a potential applicant heres what would discourage me from even applying.
1- a fairly negative management/workforce relationship
2- a bit of an overkill type of interview process
3- consistent rumours of a negative training environment
4- constantly degrading pay scales...instead of increases to keep up with cost of living they keep offering lower CoS
5- worries about quality of life in HK with regards to crowding and pollution
And before all the flames come roaring my way, no i never applied, and yes it's possible that i wouldn't have passed selection if i had. The point is due to all of that i wasn't even interested in applying at the end of the day. Some or all of he above may not be true, but that's the reputation Cathay has to alot of potential experienced recruits right now.
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According to a person I know in HR, recruitment has not slowed to any appreciable degree given the current worldwide shortage of pilots. There are many qualified pilots applying for flying positions with CX, all they have to do is cherry-pick the ones they want. FTA is busy.
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Of course recruitment has not slowed, there were 85 resignations
for 2007, from a person I know in management.
Cathay are showing people the door when they present their
resignations- rather than letting them serve out their notice.
It seems its cheaper to pay 3 months salary than have a rotten
apple in the basket bad mouthing the Firm.
Cathay always paid a premium for pilots, what the end result
will be is a constant flow of trainees.
for 2007, from a person I know in management.
Cathay are showing people the door when they present their
resignations- rather than letting them serve out their notice.
It seems its cheaper to pay 3 months salary than have a rotten
apple in the basket bad mouthing the Firm.
Cathay always paid a premium for pilots, what the end result
will be is a constant flow of trainees.
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Cost of training
Of course recruitment has not slowed, there were 85 resignations
for 2007, from a person I know in management.
for 2007, from a person I know in management.
Numero Crunchero, do you have any details to share with us on this subject.
Just of the top of my head:
B744 FO.
3 month salary (training without flying revenue sorties) 18000 USD
Allowances for those 3 months 9000 USD
About 100 overnights at the Headland @ 500 HKD 6400 USD
Ground instruction 1000 USD
~14 sims (56 hours, 2 pilots. 28 hours each @ 500 USD) 14000 USD
Base training 13500 USD
Check/Training captain salaries, 30 sectors ~ 1 month
flying for a training captain. 10% of salary 2000 USD
P fund contributions 2800 USD
Medical benefits etc, estim. 1500 USD
Total 68200 USD
85 resignations 5797000 USD
As mentioned it is off the top of my head, somebody out there with better info ?
Cider
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I just learned of two -400FOs who are quitting. Both are passenger FOs. One has about 5 years with CX; the other, around 7 or so. One's going to see what Brown can do for him. The other, to a Japanese cargo outfit (contract job)...
Pretty sad state of affairs when CX is seeing guys leaving for contract jobs...
Pretty sad state of affairs when CX is seeing guys leaving for contract jobs...
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Merry Christmas!
Gentlemen,
It is time to sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. The simple reality is that the very senior management have absolutely no idea as to the present state of their workforce. Just have a look at the communications that are being presented on intracx.
Take for example the recent spat with the FAU and local staff regarding the prospective medical changes. CX stated unequivocally, that they were going to carry out these changes regardless of the feedback of the members. After the threat of FAU action and the subsequent involvement of the Labour Dept, they have been rescinded in the short term. Communications state that CX is pleased with the change. Heard from a very senior ISM that someone now has a new job. Oh Oh
Or, the recent congratulations to everyone for their hard work and the provision of the 13th month. All the based crews and outport staff don't receive this benefit, but I guess no one told the communications staff.
Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus and his name is attrition and yes, it is really hurting. Someone was advised by CC recently that they were "critically short of crews". And Crew Contollers, I understand. A number of FO's I have flown with stated openly, that they are actively looking. They have realised their pay and conditions are similar to companies in their home countries. Moreover, the other local carriers are even offering better pay and benefits to our locally employed pilots.
Gents, CX have sh....t themselves, are sitting in it and haven't a clue what to do. They are choking on the very contracts they imposed in the first place. When was the last time you heard the term "market forces"? They are of course talking tough, but are really worried about legal action in the based ports given the recent Crofts case in the UK. Imagine if the imposed contracts of 99, where we lost our 13th month, were ruled illegal in a basing jurisdiction. Just think, 9 months of back pay with interest. Why do you think it has taken so long to carry out the onshoring? Yes, they are worried.
It is going to get very interesting very soon and you will have a front row seat. Enjoy!
It is time to sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. The simple reality is that the very senior management have absolutely no idea as to the present state of their workforce. Just have a look at the communications that are being presented on intracx.
Take for example the recent spat with the FAU and local staff regarding the prospective medical changes. CX stated unequivocally, that they were going to carry out these changes regardless of the feedback of the members. After the threat of FAU action and the subsequent involvement of the Labour Dept, they have been rescinded in the short term. Communications state that CX is pleased with the change. Heard from a very senior ISM that someone now has a new job. Oh Oh
Or, the recent congratulations to everyone for their hard work and the provision of the 13th month. All the based crews and outport staff don't receive this benefit, but I guess no one told the communications staff.
Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus and his name is attrition and yes, it is really hurting. Someone was advised by CC recently that they were "critically short of crews". And Crew Contollers, I understand. A number of FO's I have flown with stated openly, that they are actively looking. They have realised their pay and conditions are similar to companies in their home countries. Moreover, the other local carriers are even offering better pay and benefits to our locally employed pilots.
Gents, CX have sh....t themselves, are sitting in it and haven't a clue what to do. They are choking on the very contracts they imposed in the first place. When was the last time you heard the term "market forces"? They are of course talking tough, but are really worried about legal action in the based ports given the recent Crofts case in the UK. Imagine if the imposed contracts of 99, where we lost our 13th month, were ruled illegal in a basing jurisdiction. Just think, 9 months of back pay with interest. Why do you think it has taken so long to carry out the onshoring? Yes, they are worried.
It is going to get very interesting very soon and you will have a front row seat. Enjoy!
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An FO got hired to fly SPITFIRES? Wow, that's not something you hear every day.
So, if one were to get a job as an SO or FO, at what point can you expect to have to relocate family to HKG? I never got the impression that it was mandatory with all the bases around the world and many schedules look commutable from Australasia.
And, even after reading all these threads, I still don't know what the #1 reason for people leaving might be. The new CoS08? Rostering? QOL? Upgrade times? Is there a single point that is pushing people out more than the others, or is it a bunch of things?
Thanks.
ELS
So, if one were to get a job as an SO or FO, at what point can you expect to have to relocate family to HKG? I never got the impression that it was mandatory with all the bases around the world and many schedules look commutable from Australasia.
And, even after reading all these threads, I still don't know what the #1 reason for people leaving might be. The new CoS08? Rostering? QOL? Upgrade times? Is there a single point that is pushing people out more than the others, or is it a bunch of things?
Thanks.
ELS
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now the european base is affected as well : Sterling lowest to the Euro, 2008 outlook dim. ( 1.35 and falling..) That is a pay cut of more than 10% so far in 2007. But wait, hey, thanks for that 2.5% rise..