How many are leaving CX ?
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Sorry WCP, I beg to differ.
Some flights are rostered so tight that it is sometimes impossible not to use discretion. The company should monitor this but they choose to ignore it.
Usually when you get to destination, you are informed that one of the pilot rosters has changed and you now have to do 3 man ULH or you are told that your rest is reduced. It happens all the time.
How about Captains being called the day before and asked if they will use discretion for the next day’s flight. It happens. When the Captains declines, the roster changes and an extra crew is called. This is not allowed to happen and a MOR should be filed.
Maybe it’s possible that just flying from YVR to HKG and back you don’t see much of this, but it happens all the time. Most times if it does happen to you, you may think it is an isolated incident but it happens all the time.
So I act professionally and don’t go if I am unfit to complete the flight. I owe it to the passengers, that’s professionalism. That’s what I am paid for. I don’t do it to prove a point.
No I am not wound up because of anonymous posts; I wound up because of the facts.
Some flights are rostered so tight that it is sometimes impossible not to use discretion. The company should monitor this but they choose to ignore it.
Usually when you get to destination, you are informed that one of the pilot rosters has changed and you now have to do 3 man ULH or you are told that your rest is reduced. It happens all the time.
How about Captains being called the day before and asked if they will use discretion for the next day’s flight. It happens. When the Captains declines, the roster changes and an extra crew is called. This is not allowed to happen and a MOR should be filed.
Maybe it’s possible that just flying from YVR to HKG and back you don’t see much of this, but it happens all the time. Most times if it does happen to you, you may think it is an isolated incident but it happens all the time.
So I act professionally and don’t go if I am unfit to complete the flight. I owe it to the passengers, that’s professionalism. That’s what I am paid for. I don’t do it to prove a point.
No I am not wound up because of anonymous posts; I wound up because of the facts.
Last edited by Mr. Bloggs; 19th Nov 2007 at 02:48.
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aren’t you a ban breaker? Not much you can do as a Junior First Officer, if you ever made the grade.
ONE AIRLINE ONE PAYSCALE ONE ARMY
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this one airline one payscale appraoch is really good, however it's not goign to work coming from individual contributers.
From my experience of coming from many different union body, something like this needs to come from a bigger/authorative mass. It needs to be coming from the AOA. Individual pilots voicing out our opinion is not going to work. Whining is not going to work, it will just lower morale. The union acts as a shield, and beleieve me a good union will get things done.
Along the same token, the AOA has GOT to do something, stand up and give people some incentive to join for christ sake. sheesh!
A critical mass is needed, otherwise we're just trying to chop trees with a butterfly knife, instead of using bulldozers.
I want my upgrades in a timely fashion, i want my basing, I want my pay. is that so much to ask? well,..i guess, since i haven't even started yet..
From my experience of coming from many different union body, something like this needs to come from a bigger/authorative mass. It needs to be coming from the AOA. Individual pilots voicing out our opinion is not going to work. Whining is not going to work, it will just lower morale. The union acts as a shield, and beleieve me a good union will get things done.
Along the same token, the AOA has GOT to do something, stand up and give people some incentive to join for christ sake. sheesh!
A critical mass is needed, otherwise we're just trying to chop trees with a butterfly knife, instead of using bulldozers.
I want my upgrades in a timely fashion, i want my basing, I want my pay. is that so much to ask? well,..i guess, since i haven't even started yet..
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mr blogs
As long haul pilots we are always tired at the end of the flight. If we go into discretion its all the same. 15 and 1/2 hours from Lax is normal us. You are a wimp. Get the job done. You dont it like then **** off.
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Root Tuner
Ha Ha.
How do you manage to go into discretion coming from LAX with an 18-hour duty day?
Are you delayed on the ground that much in LAX? Does this happen all the time? We always make it no problems unless we have to divert into TPE.
Get the job done for a 0% pay rise for the last 6 years and now offered a 3% pay rise and a new COS forced upon us? You funny man!
Are you sure you are not “The Management”?
Ha Ha.
How do you manage to go into discretion coming from LAX with an 18-hour duty day?
Are you delayed on the ground that much in LAX? Does this happen all the time? We always make it no problems unless we have to divert into TPE.Get the job done for a 0% pay rise for the last 6 years and now offered a 3% pay rise and a new COS forced upon us? You funny man!
Are you sure you are not “The Management”?
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DEFO Leaving CX
I have recently been in contact with a DEFO pilot who was only weeks away from checking to line on the A330. He had completed a Qantas interview in the interim, been offered a job there, and decided to take the Qantas job in preference to the one he already had at Cathay.
It is important to note that this pilot was already hired at Cathay under current CoS99 pay and CoS - not the reduced pay and CoS that New Joiners will be offered after January 2008.
I will post, verbatim, and with his permission, his reasons for taking the Qantas job over staying at Cathay.
The details of this decision are as folows :
* Time to command at QF is estimated at 12-14 years. With RA 65, time to command in Cathay is predicted to be the same. The difference is, however
I can get this command in Australia with QF and I have to return to HK to gain command with Cathay.
* QF guarantee an Australian based career. With CX, although I start out on a base (a great deal), I will eventually have to return
to HK. A return to Aus after this is then difficult. I have heard through the rumour mill (Dakotas), that I would never have attained the seniority
to return to Aus as a Captain (as all of the 55-65 Captains will be in positions on the base). As my kids would be High School age then, this was not
preferable.
* The pollution in HK was terrible and much worse than I expected. While I enjoy HK as a city, the thought of living in that polluted environment for
much of my future was concerning.
* Qantas allow pilots to transfer between fleets quite easily when senior enough. With CX, I was committed to stay on the Airbus forever if I wished to remain
competitive for the Aus base. I was very keen to fly the 777, however didn't really want to commit to HK to achieve this.
* The Cathay leave system seemed to be very haphazard. Qantas is not much better, however at least at QF, when senior enough you can gain control over leave
preferences.
* I spoke to a vast number of pilots who strongly complained about the Syd based A330 roster. Their suggestion was that the time away was gradually increasing per
month and that the tasking whilst in HK was terrible (split duties etc). The didnt seem to enjoy the flying at all and they were all fed up with flying in Asia. I assume that
flying in Aus may be less stressful ( not that I have flown with an Australian Airline).
* CX has no union protection. Whilst I applaud the AOAs attempts to support the pilot body, it is obvious they they have no effective teeth. QF pilots on the other hand
seem to have netter protection over aggressive management.
* QF and Cathay seem to be growing at similar rates. QF does have Jetstar causing some pilots angst, Cathay has Dragonair.
* Financially, if I decided to remain in Aus permanently, the overall QF package was much better (up to 25% more). If I elected to move to HK, the CX package was much better.
As I preferred to stay in Aus, QF was the better option.
This pilot also expressed surprise at the speed that Cathay had him exit the premises following his decision to resign. He saw the Chief Pilot on the Thursday to announce his resignation and was on a plane south on the Friday. The explanation given him was 'We can't leave you here to work out your time at Cathay because you are a cancer that could spread...!'
In hindsight, he would have given 7 days notice immediately prior to his Qantas course, because the price he paid for being honest and up-front with Cathay was to sit unemployed for a couple of weeks in Australia before his Qantas course started.
Cathay do not adversise the fact that people are leaving, but they are, and for good reason. This is just one of them.
It is important to note that this pilot was already hired at Cathay under current CoS99 pay and CoS - not the reduced pay and CoS that New Joiners will be offered after January 2008.
I will post, verbatim, and with his permission, his reasons for taking the Qantas job over staying at Cathay.
The details of this decision are as folows :
* Time to command at QF is estimated at 12-14 years. With RA 65, time to command in Cathay is predicted to be the same. The difference is, however
I can get this command in Australia with QF and I have to return to HK to gain command with Cathay.
* QF guarantee an Australian based career. With CX, although I start out on a base (a great deal), I will eventually have to return
to HK. A return to Aus after this is then difficult. I have heard through the rumour mill (Dakotas), that I would never have attained the seniority
to return to Aus as a Captain (as all of the 55-65 Captains will be in positions on the base). As my kids would be High School age then, this was not
preferable.
* The pollution in HK was terrible and much worse than I expected. While I enjoy HK as a city, the thought of living in that polluted environment for
much of my future was concerning.
* Qantas allow pilots to transfer between fleets quite easily when senior enough. With CX, I was committed to stay on the Airbus forever if I wished to remain
competitive for the Aus base. I was very keen to fly the 777, however didn't really want to commit to HK to achieve this.
* The Cathay leave system seemed to be very haphazard. Qantas is not much better, however at least at QF, when senior enough you can gain control over leave
preferences.
* I spoke to a vast number of pilots who strongly complained about the Syd based A330 roster. Their suggestion was that the time away was gradually increasing per
month and that the tasking whilst in HK was terrible (split duties etc). The didnt seem to enjoy the flying at all and they were all fed up with flying in Asia. I assume that
flying in Aus may be less stressful ( not that I have flown with an Australian Airline).
* CX has no union protection. Whilst I applaud the AOAs attempts to support the pilot body, it is obvious they they have no effective teeth. QF pilots on the other hand
seem to have netter protection over aggressive management.
* QF and Cathay seem to be growing at similar rates. QF does have Jetstar causing some pilots angst, Cathay has Dragonair.
* Financially, if I decided to remain in Aus permanently, the overall QF package was much better (up to 25% more). If I elected to move to HK, the CX package was much better.
As I preferred to stay in Aus, QF was the better option.
This pilot also expressed surprise at the speed that Cathay had him exit the premises following his decision to resign. He saw the Chief Pilot on the Thursday to announce his resignation and was on a plane south on the Friday. The explanation given him was 'We can't leave you here to work out your time at Cathay because you are a cancer that could spread...!'
In hindsight, he would have given 7 days notice immediately prior to his Qantas course, because the price he paid for being honest and up-front with Cathay was to sit unemployed for a couple of weeks in Australia before his Qantas course started.
Cathay do not adversise the fact that people are leaving, but they are, and for good reason. This is just one of them.
Last edited by BScaler; 24th Nov 2007 at 01:26.
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Spot on...I cannot find a flaw in his decisions to leave...well done, that makes it 5 FO's in one month that have left...2 of which were Australian based.
I think next year as the jobs in Australia come on line, you will see a constant stream of Pilots leaving for the exact reasons the SYD based Fo mentioned...
I hope Nick and Phil are looking forward to their new postings when Cx starts canceling flights due to crew pissing off.
I think next year as the jobs in Australia come on line, you will see a constant stream of Pilots leaving for the exact reasons the SYD based Fo mentioned...
I hope Nick and Phil are looking forward to their new postings when Cx starts canceling flights due to crew pissing off.
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Veruka
Obviously this bloke did not canvas your opinion, but canvassed the opinion of others when he made his decision to go with Qantas...perhaps he may have even got it wrong on the work rate comparison. I guess he will find out in due course.
Would you care to comment on the other issues this guy brought up, such as the pay comparison; pollution concerns in Hong Kong; transfer between fleets advantage at Qantas; leave system comparison and junior officers' prospects for command with the imminent imposition of the retirement age 65 at Cathay?
Would you care to comment on the other issues this guy brought up, such as the pay comparison; pollution concerns in Hong Kong; transfer between fleets advantage at Qantas; leave system comparison and junior officers' prospects for command with the imminent imposition of the retirement age 65 at Cathay?
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Veruka
Good one, look forward to it.
Actually, while you are at it, perhaps you could shed some light on why three Cathay FOs, (having supposedly attained the 'Holy Grail' of airline jobs), not being too far away from command, would choose to forego their career here and throw it all in to buy a charter outfit in WA?
Perhaps their roster would be better running their own operation? Maybe they'd have a better chance of getting leave when they wanted it? Surely it can't be the pay...? Or perhaps the families preferred the lifestyle back in Oz? Regular trips to unspoiled beaches? Fish that you can catch yourself and actually eat? Homegrown beer? Dune-buggying in the endless sand dunes? Friends and family? Perhaps the cost/benefit analysis didn't stack up for having to put up with the environment here? Perhaps, like other expats that have since left Hong Kong, childrens ailments, (ailments that evaporated in the cleaner air and better living conditions of a more pristine environment), became too much of a worry here and any amount of money wouldn't keep them? Perhaps a combination of some or all of these factors?
One would think that, all things being equal, if Cathay was such a crash-hot job, guys like this wouldn't be pulling up sticks and heading back home. Never used to happen in the past, but it does appear to be happening more regularly these days.
I will concede that it is not all doom and gloom here and that the lifestyle can be exciting and fulfilling, but how do you put a dollar value on you and your family having to deal with the pollution, the obvious downsides, (family, friends, sports, hobbies), to living an expat existence in a strange land? It seems that some of those who are trying to do so are finding that the equation leans toward heading home.
Actually, while you are at it, perhaps you could shed some light on why three Cathay FOs, (having supposedly attained the 'Holy Grail' of airline jobs), not being too far away from command, would choose to forego their career here and throw it all in to buy a charter outfit in WA?
Perhaps their roster would be better running their own operation? Maybe they'd have a better chance of getting leave when they wanted it? Surely it can't be the pay...? Or perhaps the families preferred the lifestyle back in Oz? Regular trips to unspoiled beaches? Fish that you can catch yourself and actually eat? Homegrown beer? Dune-buggying in the endless sand dunes? Friends and family? Perhaps the cost/benefit analysis didn't stack up for having to put up with the environment here? Perhaps, like other expats that have since left Hong Kong, childrens ailments, (ailments that evaporated in the cleaner air and better living conditions of a more pristine environment), became too much of a worry here and any amount of money wouldn't keep them? Perhaps a combination of some or all of these factors?
One would think that, all things being equal, if Cathay was such a crash-hot job, guys like this wouldn't be pulling up sticks and heading back home. Never used to happen in the past, but it does appear to be happening more regularly these days.
I will concede that it is not all doom and gloom here and that the lifestyle can be exciting and fulfilling, but how do you put a dollar value on you and your family having to deal with the pollution, the obvious downsides, (family, friends, sports, hobbies), to living an expat existence in a strange land? It seems that some of those who are trying to do so are finding that the equation leans toward heading home.
BScaler
I'm not going to make peoples' decisions for them; I was simply going to address some of the points raised in your discussion as I have worked under both systems.
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Veruka
A few months ago I compared 10 randomly chosen CX Oz based Airbus CN rosters for 56 days and applied QF pay rules. The result was an average salary of $260K with an average divisor of 181.8 Whilst I accept that QF Airbus guys are working less than that at the moment, 181.8 does seem in the ball park when compared to the 744's current 185 divisor, don't you think?
FYI, these CX guys that are on B scales earn about $205-210K.
So when you compare QF with CX, don't forget to put in the QF column 30% more pay for the same work, free airport parking, taxi allowance for many trips, better hotels, more allowances, Long Service Leave etc.
I have a few friends that have worked for both airlines...the consensus seems to be that CX has a (mostly) better cockpit environment.
So I would have no problems recommending QF over CX anyday. It pays better, you have career protection and you don't have to worry about exchange rates and what damage the pollution is doing to your children.
But being Numero Crunchero I should stick to numbers....so you can earn 30% less and take longer to command by working for CX, or you can work for QF! Clear enough???
FYI, these CX guys that are on B scales earn about $205-210K.
So when you compare QF with CX, don't forget to put in the QF column 30% more pay for the same work, free airport parking, taxi allowance for many trips, better hotels, more allowances, Long Service Leave etc.
I have a few friends that have worked for both airlines...the consensus seems to be that CX has a (mostly) better cockpit environment.
So I would have no problems recommending QF over CX anyday. It pays better, you have career protection and you don't have to worry about exchange rates and what damage the pollution is doing to your children.
But being Numero Crunchero I should stick to numbers....so you can earn 30% less and take longer to command by working for CX, or you can work for QF! Clear enough???
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OBNO
Could I ask you to post on behalf of this bloke to show his reasons for taking Cathay over QF?
The guy I referred to has listed a fairly comprehensive and broad-based set of reasons for knocking back a Cathay DEFO job, perhaps you could ask the guy you know who is taking Cathay in preference to Qantas to do the same. It'd be interesting.
And just one more little thing that may be of interest to him. I have heard anecdotally that some New Joiners with a start date in December, (ie. starting under the current CoS99 pay and conditions), are being given a letter saying 'Oh, wait, your course has been deferred until January 2008 - here are the new CoS08 for your reference, complete with reduced pay...'
You may want to give your bloke a 'heads-up' on that one. His future prospects may have dimmed somewhat before he even starts at Cathay if he were to get caught up in that little money-saving scheme.
The guy I referred to has listed a fairly comprehensive and broad-based set of reasons for knocking back a Cathay DEFO job, perhaps you could ask the guy you know who is taking Cathay in preference to Qantas to do the same. It'd be interesting.
And just one more little thing that may be of interest to him. I have heard anecdotally that some New Joiners with a start date in December, (ie. starting under the current CoS99 pay and conditions), are being given a letter saying 'Oh, wait, your course has been deferred until January 2008 - here are the new CoS08 for your reference, complete with reduced pay...'
You may want to give your bloke a 'heads-up' on that one. His future prospects may have dimmed somewhat before he even starts at Cathay if he were to get caught up in that little money-saving scheme.
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Bscaler
Don't know the guy/situation but hear is some spit ballin':
1. He/She didn't want to be an QF SO for 8+ years?!
2. He/She was tired of calling the QF Captain "Captain/Sir"?! (or if they were particularly magnanimous, "Skipper").
3. He/She was concerned about murky Jetstar "divide & conquer" long term career plans?! (CX aren't the only experts on this subject)
4. He/She didn't want to pay 43% tax (soon to rise - change of Oz gov't)
etc... etc... Point is, everyone has their reasons. Only one thing is for sure in aviation, and that is the grass is always greener on the other side!
1. He/She didn't want to be an QF SO for 8+ years?!
2. He/She was tired of calling the QF Captain "Captain/Sir"?! (or if they were particularly magnanimous, "Skipper").
3. He/She was concerned about murky Jetstar "divide & conquer" long term career plans?! (CX aren't the only experts on this subject)
4. He/She didn't want to pay 43% tax (soon to rise - change of Oz gov't)
etc... etc... Point is, everyone has their reasons. Only one thing is for sure in aviation, and that is the grass is always greener on the other side!
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No wai
I have had a few friends leave CX and join QF. They would all agree with you on point 2 - here at CX I only make my SOs call me "captain my captain" (from Dead Poets Society).
CX have almost no need to upgrade SOs for the forseeable future thanks to RA65, DEFO recruitment and reduced FO requirements of 3 man ULR. So things are not rosy here. I doubt they would stop upgrading them as it only takes SOs one month to learn how to make the bunk, eat the sandwiches and laugh at my jokes...the next 3 years are painfully spent waiting for a window seat!
Whilst you have your divide and conquer with jetstar, you have just ordered 188 a/c. So I am sure there will be upgrades somewhere....just like at CX where the separation of the freighter fleet has led to commands taking longer on pax fleet for those that don't want to 'enjoy' inferior pay and rostering conditions on the freighter.
I was looking at tax rates in Oz and they have come down significantly - on the first hundred you will pay about 30% flat - then it is marginal rates around 40% with both labour and liberal promising to lower rates/ increase thresholds. My tax rate works out to be about 20% flat so I am better off....but that equates to $10K in the first $100k earnt and $20K for the next hundred. And by the way, cost of living in HKG is astronomical.
I agree that the 'grass is greener in the other cockpit' syndrome is alive and well. What I do know from talking to my mates is that they will have commands around 13-14 years in QF. CX has to increase its current growth rate(compared to recent a/c announcement) to have commands at 13 years. If the current 'huge' a/c order is a sign of future growth rate then command will be about 17 years.
So what floats your boat - domicile, command, money? If you want Command and more money than CX, take EK. If you want domicile and money, take QF. The only advantage that CX appears to have over QF is cockpit culture. If you were based in Australia for your entire CX career(not possible now with RA65 soaking up all Aussie command basings) you would earn significantly more in QF - and get better hotels, allowances, car parking, etc etc etc. Also, do not underestimate the desirability of being able to pick and choose your base and a/c in seniority. Its almost impossible in CX to get either choice anymore.
One last point - I know in QF some guys choose to remain SOs thanks to their pay being higher due to roster choices. I am told the highest SOs earn $160K a year and have pretty easy lives. You won't earn that much as an FO in CX! I have been told that you can get on the 737 reasonably quickish but the workload goes up vs the pay. I guess some guys work to live and some guys live to fly 'shiny new jets'.
CX have almost no need to upgrade SOs for the forseeable future thanks to RA65, DEFO recruitment and reduced FO requirements of 3 man ULR. So things are not rosy here. I doubt they would stop upgrading them as it only takes SOs one month to learn how to make the bunk, eat the sandwiches and laugh at my jokes...the next 3 years are painfully spent waiting for a window seat!
Whilst you have your divide and conquer with jetstar, you have just ordered 188 a/c. So I am sure there will be upgrades somewhere....just like at CX where the separation of the freighter fleet has led to commands taking longer on pax fleet for those that don't want to 'enjoy' inferior pay and rostering conditions on the freighter.
I was looking at tax rates in Oz and they have come down significantly - on the first hundred you will pay about 30% flat - then it is marginal rates around 40% with both labour and liberal promising to lower rates/ increase thresholds. My tax rate works out to be about 20% flat so I am better off....but that equates to $10K in the first $100k earnt and $20K for the next hundred. And by the way, cost of living in HKG is astronomical.
I agree that the 'grass is greener in the other cockpit' syndrome is alive and well. What I do know from talking to my mates is that they will have commands around 13-14 years in QF. CX has to increase its current growth rate(compared to recent a/c announcement) to have commands at 13 years. If the current 'huge' a/c order is a sign of future growth rate then command will be about 17 years.
So what floats your boat - domicile, command, money? If you want Command and more money than CX, take EK. If you want domicile and money, take QF. The only advantage that CX appears to have over QF is cockpit culture. If you were based in Australia for your entire CX career(not possible now with RA65 soaking up all Aussie command basings) you would earn significantly more in QF - and get better hotels, allowances, car parking, etc etc etc. Also, do not underestimate the desirability of being able to pick and choose your base and a/c in seniority. Its almost impossible in CX to get either choice anymore.
One last point - I know in QF some guys choose to remain SOs thanks to their pay being higher due to roster choices. I am told the highest SOs earn $160K a year and have pretty easy lives. You won't earn that much as an FO in CX! I have been told that you can get on the 737 reasonably quickish but the workload goes up vs the pay. I guess some guys work to live and some guys live to fly 'shiny new jets'.
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No-Wai
Thanks Wai, always enjoy a little spit ballin'.
Apart from the tax issue that you mention, (which would,of course, apply to a Cathay New Joiner Aus Based DEFO anyway...), the other reasons cannot, surely, be game-breakers leading to change of employment.
Apart from the tax issue that you mention, (which would,of course, apply to a Cathay New Joiner Aus Based DEFO anyway...), the other reasons cannot, surely, be game-breakers leading to change of employment.
- Length of time as an SO at Qantas could be reduced if you were prepared to take a domestic FO position instead - depends on how much value you put on real stick and rudder time. But at least they do have the option there.
- The whole 'calling the Captain "Captain" or "Sir"' thing appears part of the Qantas culture and has been ingrained for some time now. Surely a candidate looking for a job with Qantas would know of this feature of the flight deck culture there ahead of time and would have either dealt with it then or applied elsewhere if it was such a big deal to them. Can't see this particular issue leaping up at them out of the blue, blue.
- And as for the Qantas 'murky Jetstar divide and conquer' long term plans. Well, leaving to ditch that scenario would be a little bit like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire if they were to come here to Cathay on that premise.