How many are leaving CX ?
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As far as I am aware SO pay is the same - however you will not have a little thing called BYPASS PAY in your contract.......which I have a little suspicion will become a BIG issue soon...
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No need to quote the figures as someone else has...bottom line is that an Aussie joining in Dec07 will earn over $100K more than one joining in Jan08 over the first few years.
For an SO joining in HKG your pay is the same(3% increase in Jan). Some things for a potential SO joiner to consider.
RA65 will add 3-5 years to command time....and obviously also delay the need to have you upgraded to FO. 3man crewing, which we will have Jan09, will give CX a sudden surplus of FOs - maybe 200-300. So again, even less need to upgrade SOs.
Bypass pay is paid to SOs who are 'assessed' if there are DEFOs junior to them and/or pilots extended past RA55. The latter reason only applies to pilots who join prior to 1/1/08.
Five years from now we are likely to have up to 300 'extended' captains. That means up to 300 HKG based FOs, on CoS99, will get bypass pay. The only SOs who will get it are those assessed...which apparently happens just a few months before upgrade.
So if you aren't in CX now don't worry about bypass pay as it won't affect you! If you are based a year from now, don't worry about bypass pay as it won't affect you....CX likes to keep things simple!
For an SO joining in HKG your pay is the same(3% increase in Jan). Some things for a potential SO joiner to consider.
RA65 will add 3-5 years to command time....and obviously also delay the need to have you upgraded to FO. 3man crewing, which we will have Jan09, will give CX a sudden surplus of FOs - maybe 200-300. So again, even less need to upgrade SOs.
Bypass pay is paid to SOs who are 'assessed' if there are DEFOs junior to them and/or pilots extended past RA55. The latter reason only applies to pilots who join prior to 1/1/08.
Five years from now we are likely to have up to 300 'extended' captains. That means up to 300 HKG based FOs, on CoS99, will get bypass pay. The only SOs who will get it are those assessed...which apparently happens just a few months before upgrade.
So if you aren't in CX now don't worry about bypass pay as it won't affect you! If you are based a year from now, don't worry about bypass pay as it won't affect you....CX likes to keep things simple!
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The numbers
Apparently some of you do want the exact numbers. The following does NOT include PF or HDP. Add 15.5% of base figure for PF and 5%ish for HDP. UFO = 2008 salary for joiners 1/1/08 onwards.
Aus
CoS99 $122,352
UFO $92,664
UK(EUR)
CoS 99 £59,484
UFO £45,036
US
CoS99 $103,440
UFO $73,440
Note, in the US CX has been recruiting on the freighter fleet in the past. The salary for that is $65,412(2008). There will be no more freighter recruitment in future.
Aus
CoS99 $122,352
UFO $92,664
UK(EUR)
CoS 99 £59,484
UFO £45,036
US
CoS99 $103,440
UFO $73,440
Note, in the US CX has been recruiting on the freighter fleet in the past. The salary for that is $65,412(2008). There will be no more freighter recruitment in future.
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oops
I missed the canadian pay - sincere apologies to my polite brethren;-)
CoS99 $114,180
UFO $86,472
So to answer your question...JFK $73,440 USD, YYZ $86,472 loonies.
CoS99 $114,180
UFO $86,472
So to answer your question...JFK $73,440 USD, YYZ $86,472 loonies.
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NC, sorry for the misunderstanding, but thanks for the info...
My question was, "On what basis is CX recruiting DEFOs into YYZ and JFK when there are current CX pilots wanting (and who have not been offered) those positions?"
Seems this little abrogation of our contract isn't getting much attention!
My question was, "On what basis is CX recruiting DEFOs into YYZ and JFK when there are current CX pilots wanting (and who have not been offered) those positions?"
Seems this little abrogation of our contract isn't getting much attention!
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Oval3holer
Thats a good question! The bases should be offered in seniority. How they get around it most of the time is saying 'sorry, you are on bus/400 and all the 2008+2009 jokers have already been allocated so no conversion for you'. If you are not on type then you are ineligible for the basing.
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True, but there are numerous 777 FOs who want a 777 FO slot in YYZ or JFK. How CX can hire DEFOs into these slots when current CX 777 FOs want them is beyond me... and the AOA is doing nothing about it!
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Have you figured it out yet? We do what we want, when we want. We have our own interpretation of the rules and contracts.
Let me spell it out for the dim-witted amongst us. The present 777 F/O’s in Hong Kong will get an opportunity to bid for 18 base positions. Anyone over that amount will not get a base position because we will only release 18. Don’t get me wrong, there are many more positions available but we will simply not release them. We are saving them for DEFO’s hired on a base.
If you feel disadvantaged by this, we don't care. Talk to the GMA or take us to court. If you feel that strongly, leave. There are many more to take your place.
We may open some slots in JFK next year but some will have to be reserved for DEFO’s 777-300ER’s, our new shiny jet.
You see, we are untouchable!
To my bonus.
The Management
Let me spell it out for the dim-witted amongst us. The present 777 F/O’s in Hong Kong will get an opportunity to bid for 18 base positions. Anyone over that amount will not get a base position because we will only release 18. Don’t get me wrong, there are many more positions available but we will simply not release them. We are saving them for DEFO’s hired on a base.
If you feel disadvantaged by this, we don't care. Talk to the GMA or take us to court. If you feel that strongly, leave. There are many more to take your place.
We may open some slots in JFK next year but some will have to be reserved for DEFO’s 777-300ER’s, our new shiny jet.
You see, we are untouchable!
To my bonus.
The Management
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Have you figured it out yet? We do what we want, when we want. We have our own interpretation of the rules and contracts.
Let me spell it out for the dim-witted amongst us. The present 777 F/O’s in Hong Kong will get an opportunity to bid for 18 base positions. Anyone over that amount will not get a base position because we will only release 18. Don’t get me wrong, there are many more positions available but we will simply not release them. We are saving them for DEFO’s hired on a base.
If you feel disadvantaged by this, we don't care. Talk to the GMA or take us to court. If you feel that strongly, leave. There are many more to take your place.
We may open some slots in JFK next year but some will have to be reserved for DEFO’s 777-300ER’s, our new shiny jet.
You see, we are untouchable!
To my bonus.
The Management
Let me spell it out for the dim-witted amongst us. The present 777 F/O’s in Hong Kong will get an opportunity to bid for 18 base positions. Anyone over that amount will not get a base position because we will only release 18. Don’t get me wrong, there are many more positions available but we will simply not release them. We are saving them for DEFO’s hired on a base.
If you feel disadvantaged by this, we don't care. Talk to the GMA or take us to court. If you feel that strongly, leave. There are many more to take your place.
We may open some slots in JFK next year but some will have to be reserved for DEFO’s 777-300ER’s, our new shiny jet.
You see, we are untouchable!
To my bonus.
The Management
Looks like it's time for another RECRUITMENT BAN...We all remember how effective the last one was!!
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QF Profit Forecast Increase
Qantas have just announced another increase in it's forecast profit for the year by a further 10%. It will be a bumper year for QF, and by extension, it should also be a bumper year for fellow OneWorld partner Cathay. Watch for further profit forecasts from Cathay.
Despite this happy state of affairs and disregarding the tight market worldwide for pilots, Cathay still seek to recruit New Joiner aircrew from 2008 onwards on less pay than that offered to their ccounterparts for the same job in 2007. Unbelievable but true.
Maybe this thread should be changed from 'How many are leaving CX?' to 'How many are actually joining CX?'
And perhaps a related thread could be 'How many are joining CX and then leaving once they realise that the grass this side of the fence is a little parched?' I know of at least one guy who was almost checked out to line after taking a direct-entry FO slot based in SYD. He decided he'd take a Qantas SO slot in preference. Bear in mind that this individual was recruited on the 2007 deal, not the inferior deal that New Joiners will be presented with in 2008. How much did that cost the Company in wasted training? How does the Company expect to recruit pilots on less pay than this guy kissed off?
In times gone by, the Company used to publicise the names of those retiring or leaving the Company, but for some years now it has failed to do so. Forums such as this are the only avenue open to publication of those who have left.
In my opinion, once the pendulum has swung through a certain arc, it may be impossible to stop the momentum. Measures that the Company may take in future to arrest the outflow may be too late in coming.
Some believe that even the payrise given to our Dragon colleagues will not stem the flow now that the levee has been breached - there are many other fundamental issues yet to be addressed.
Will the same happen at Cathay?
Despite this happy state of affairs and disregarding the tight market worldwide for pilots, Cathay still seek to recruit New Joiner aircrew from 2008 onwards on less pay than that offered to their ccounterparts for the same job in 2007. Unbelievable but true.
Maybe this thread should be changed from 'How many are leaving CX?' to 'How many are actually joining CX?'
And perhaps a related thread could be 'How many are joining CX and then leaving once they realise that the grass this side of the fence is a little parched?' I know of at least one guy who was almost checked out to line after taking a direct-entry FO slot based in SYD. He decided he'd take a Qantas SO slot in preference. Bear in mind that this individual was recruited on the 2007 deal, not the inferior deal that New Joiners will be presented with in 2008. How much did that cost the Company in wasted training? How does the Company expect to recruit pilots on less pay than this guy kissed off?
In times gone by, the Company used to publicise the names of those retiring or leaving the Company, but for some years now it has failed to do so. Forums such as this are the only avenue open to publication of those who have left.
In my opinion, once the pendulum has swung through a certain arc, it may be impossible to stop the momentum. Measures that the Company may take in future to arrest the outflow may be too late in coming.
Some believe that even the payrise given to our Dragon colleagues will not stem the flow now that the levee has been breached - there are many other fundamental issues yet to be addressed.
Will the same happen at Cathay?
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Hey guys I've been looking around this website for some time and I've been noticing that many of you are talking about leaving cathay. I've been thinking of applying, can any of you give me some insight as to how things are over there.
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Well, a guy that came from EUR and joined as an SO 8months ago is leaving next month. He said that he really enjoys HKG(he is single) but RA65, less basing opportunities, DEFOs and resultant delay in upgrades to both window seats made him reconsider. So he is going back to his old job. As he said, its not perfect there but its better than CX and he won't look over the fence again wondering if that grass is greener or just 'made in china' astroturf;-)
Cathay acts like a career airline and pays like a post 9-11 legacy carrier. Issues that my american amigos mention to me frequently;
-moving career goalposts - time to command moving beyond 13+ years
-carrot of early freighter command is mostly illusory
-hoops required to 'jump through' for command keep multilplying
-CX culture is most definitely not easy for those from more relaxed environments - thing brad pitts puckerhole in a prison shower - "toight"
-no post retirement fringe benefits such as medical
Over a decade ago CX had a reputation for being a career airline that had fast commands and good pay. Back then you never heard of anyone leaving CX as everyone left other airlines to come here. I have never seen so many people leave and I have never seen morale so low. If you are seriously considering CX talk to some of your peers to get a good idea of how things are now.
merry xmas
Cathay acts like a career airline and pays like a post 9-11 legacy carrier. Issues that my american amigos mention to me frequently;
-moving career goalposts - time to command moving beyond 13+ years
-carrot of early freighter command is mostly illusory
-hoops required to 'jump through' for command keep multilplying
-CX culture is most definitely not easy for those from more relaxed environments - thing brad pitts puckerhole in a prison shower - "toight"
-no post retirement fringe benefits such as medical
Over a decade ago CX had a reputation for being a career airline that had fast commands and good pay. Back then you never heard of anyone leaving CX as everyone left other airlines to come here. I have never seen so many people leave and I have never seen morale so low. If you are seriously considering CX talk to some of your peers to get a good idea of how things are now.
merry xmas
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You are so right
NC
Right as usual.
The only reasons people ever left in the past, were something to do with personal circumstance - families/health etc. Back then CX was a proper career airline, like United, or Qantas or BA. People didn't leave. Almost unheard of.
They do now. Ground school the other day; one person missing; turned out he had resigned. That's when the penny dropped for me.
They are short of FOs, of that, there is no doubt. People at last are voting with their feet - either not walking to the interview or walking back out the door almost as soon as they arrive. Even FOs with significant seniority are leaving.
The rest of us are shackled by seniority. The market will not look after us so quickly. If we want things to change, we need to look after ourselves.
Park or Pay
Milly
Right as usual.
The only reasons people ever left in the past, were something to do with personal circumstance - families/health etc. Back then CX was a proper career airline, like United, or Qantas or BA. People didn't leave. Almost unheard of.
They do now. Ground school the other day; one person missing; turned out he had resigned. That's when the penny dropped for me.
They are short of FOs, of that, there is no doubt. People at last are voting with their feet - either not walking to the interview or walking back out the door almost as soon as they arrive. Even FOs with significant seniority are leaving.
The rest of us are shackled by seniority. The market will not look after us so quickly. If we want things to change, we need to look after ourselves.
Park or Pay
Milly
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I know of a junior WJ pilot that just turned down an SO course for Dec.
They would rather be at a happy LCC than a unhappy major with decreasing conditions and poor relations.
Can you blame them?
CX...wake up before it's too late!
They would rather be at a happy LCC than a unhappy major with decreasing conditions and poor relations.
Can you blame them?
CX...wake up before it's too late!
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More Leaving and Look Who's Joining...
Leaving
Just heard of a guy who has had two years in the Company and in the pipeline for a Jetstar job. He'll be out of here as soon as he gets the nod.
It is easier for junior guys to leave the Company with all the opportunities out there and with less time invested in the seniority system.
I am wondering how many of those who were originally scheduled to join Cathay as DEFO's on a base in December 2007, that have now had their joining date shifted into 2008 due to 'changes to training schedules', will feel inclined to stay once they realise that they will be joining the Company under CoS08, (ie. on substantially less money than originally thought under the CoS99 salary scales).
Perhaps it will be worth a couple of months stay in the Headland to get the type-rating before shooting through to sunnier, more rewarding, and less polluted climes. The Company must be allowing for some attrition here.
Joining
I also just heard, (probably old news to some of you...), that some of the latest to join the Cathay, are a group of Dragon Cadet SOs who cannot be accommodated for training at our sister airline!
Training
Perhaps this is the reason that the Cathay Airbus Fleet Office are advertising for more check and trainers - as opposed to the official line put out there that they have received authorisation to employ more training staff to 'spread the load around'...! I doubt if the check and training roster will get any better, but the workload in having to train our sister airline's almost ab-initio trainees will certainly increase.
It has to be stated at this time, that a B-Scale CN taking a training position will be on approximately 13% less pay than a comparable A-Scale line CN is at present.
Should the B-Scaler reach the dizzy heights of a check position, then they would still be on less money than a line A-Scale CN, despite being endowed with the additional responsibility of checking that same individual!
(This comparison takes only the basic remuneration into account, and not the provident fund, travel fund, better retirement travel benefits, medical benefits, dental benefits, or share options that form other trimmings A-Scalers are or have been entitled to. NC, feel free to leap right in here.)
One could fail to see the relative attraction of the training job for a B-Scaler if one were to take the position purely for monetary reward.
Just heard of a guy who has had two years in the Company and in the pipeline for a Jetstar job. He'll be out of here as soon as he gets the nod.
It is easier for junior guys to leave the Company with all the opportunities out there and with less time invested in the seniority system.
I am wondering how many of those who were originally scheduled to join Cathay as DEFO's on a base in December 2007, that have now had their joining date shifted into 2008 due to 'changes to training schedules', will feel inclined to stay once they realise that they will be joining the Company under CoS08, (ie. on substantially less money than originally thought under the CoS99 salary scales).
Perhaps it will be worth a couple of months stay in the Headland to get the type-rating before shooting through to sunnier, more rewarding, and less polluted climes. The Company must be allowing for some attrition here.
Joining
I also just heard, (probably old news to some of you...), that some of the latest to join the Cathay, are a group of Dragon Cadet SOs who cannot be accommodated for training at our sister airline!
Training
Perhaps this is the reason that the Cathay Airbus Fleet Office are advertising for more check and trainers - as opposed to the official line put out there that they have received authorisation to employ more training staff to 'spread the load around'...! I doubt if the check and training roster will get any better, but the workload in having to train our sister airline's almost ab-initio trainees will certainly increase.
It has to be stated at this time, that a B-Scale CN taking a training position will be on approximately 13% less pay than a comparable A-Scale line CN is at present.
Should the B-Scaler reach the dizzy heights of a check position, then they would still be on less money than a line A-Scale CN, despite being endowed with the additional responsibility of checking that same individual!
(This comparison takes only the basic remuneration into account, and not the provident fund, travel fund, better retirement travel benefits, medical benefits, dental benefits, or share options that form other trimmings A-Scalers are or have been entitled to. NC, feel free to leap right in here.)
One could fail to see the relative attraction of the training job for a B-Scaler if one were to take the position purely for monetary reward.
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Why would anyone ever want to become a trainer at CX????
Hom many years is it now that they were going to fix the training package...never going to happen!!!!
They lie lie lie.
Hom many years is it now that they were going to fix the training package...never going to happen!!!!
They lie lie lie.