how Many are leaving ??
Five green:- I assume you are responding to my comment that no FO I ever flew with has left Cx????? No FO that I have flown with in Cx has ever left the company either voluntarily or otherwise.
Bye the way.........I fully support any Cx Pilot leaving to get a better job, if they can do it then fantastic for them. This applies to any nationality.
Bye the way.........I fully support any Cx Pilot leaving to get a better job, if they can do it then fantastic for them. This applies to any nationality.
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Well if you're so content and FO's are falling over themselves to fly with you (have a look in the mirror mate) then you really don't need to be on this website venting your spleen. You should be at the bar surrounded by the adoring ladies and the other guys that just wish they were you.
Maybe Not.
PS I notice you have tried to qualify your QF boast. I am still open eared to your BA LVP assessment!! Be careful, sometimes BS can come back and bite you on the ass!!
Maybe Not.
PS I notice you have tried to qualify your QF boast. I am still open eared to your BA LVP assessment!! Be careful, sometimes BS can come back and bite you on the ass!!
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In the early days of this thread I had hoped that the initial adult discussion of why folk were leaving would produce some useful indicators of what is going wrong. Instead (as usual unfortunately) it has been hijacked by the angry brigade. I cannot believe that work colleagues stoop to mud-slinging, in the public domain, in a way that now more resembles a school playground. Maybe it is just a vociferous minority - maybe not.
Nevertheless it is as well to remember that this is not a closed circuit CX board - it is in the PUBLIC DOMAIN.
Time to look in the mirror perhaps?
'nuff said.
Nevertheless it is as well to remember that this is not a closed circuit CX board - it is in the PUBLIC DOMAIN.
Time to look in the mirror perhaps?
'nuff said.
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What a load of nancy BS Nulla.............what ever is said here is the truth......you know we can't all get together in the plaza and nut it out......................this is the only place we can vent!!! I also heard a 777 pax FO has left recently...............................
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Definitely a vociferous minority!
If I was a new joiner would I consider leaving? Absolutely!
Why? Well, the last pay rise was 6 years ago. Despite CPI figures the cost of living has gone up dramatically since then no matter where you live. Over the last few years the USD/HKD has severely devalued against the many countries our pilots come from. The threat of RA60 delaying upgrades for a few years is more disconcerting than the 'bonus' of being able to work for an extra 5 years. HKG pollution is getting worse. Out workload has gone up almost 20% over the last 6 years...based on aircraft orders it is quite possible that a further increase in productivity will be required although this may lead to some overtime!
Why do many of us stay?
Well there is the obvious 'sunk cost' bias...we have already done a few years and we would be throwing that away. For aussies and kiwis the options are arguably much worse than CX now! Euros and yanks have many more options.
The point of this thread was to discuss why people leave. I still have no problem recommending CX to aussies(we aren't so bright) as I think it is the best option going for aussies.
As CX has been pushing for over a decade....MARKET FORCES. Personally I like seeing people leave(especially try hard and regret cx) as it means things might improve here and/or may put upward pressure on salary! But unfortunately many of our competitors have been offering salary and conditions inferior to us for many years (I am obviously ignoring some of the Euro LCC and US carriers). The chapter 11 sagas from the states have fed an insatiable airline appetite for hungry pilots but it appears, finally, the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way!
Try hard and regret cx...I dont have a problem with you leaving...I have a problem with what appears to be "I'm right, you are all idiots for staying" attitude. I can assure you I CHOOSE to stay...I dont think it is perfect in CX...it is just that my **** bucket isn't full yet...and my $$ bucket is nearly empty thanks to a mistimed divorce;-) So I will stay until my **** bucket gets full as that is far more likely than the $$ bucket ever being full. But there is more to life than money.
Viva la tolerance...why is it so important to have everyone agree with you? Accept that CX can drive some people crazy whilst people like me just laugh at the foibles of the system. I guess I work to live, not live to work, so maybe that is why I am so much more tolerant?!
I can't control what CX do...I cannot change how C+T is carried out...what I can do is control the environment in my cockpit (one advantage of the 4 stripes). For the 4 stripe challenged...you cant change what happens to you, you can only change your reaction to it! If you fly with someone you dont like, just remember it is only for a few hours. You dont have to socialise with him (I just realised why I am always alone on overnights!)...life is too short to let some 4bar or the system get you down.
Flying can be fun...lighten up. If CX isn't for you, move on. But dont piss on everyone that CHOOSES to stay!
If I was a new joiner would I consider leaving? Absolutely!
Why? Well, the last pay rise was 6 years ago. Despite CPI figures the cost of living has gone up dramatically since then no matter where you live. Over the last few years the USD/HKD has severely devalued against the many countries our pilots come from. The threat of RA60 delaying upgrades for a few years is more disconcerting than the 'bonus' of being able to work for an extra 5 years. HKG pollution is getting worse. Out workload has gone up almost 20% over the last 6 years...based on aircraft orders it is quite possible that a further increase in productivity will be required although this may lead to some overtime!
Why do many of us stay?
Well there is the obvious 'sunk cost' bias...we have already done a few years and we would be throwing that away. For aussies and kiwis the options are arguably much worse than CX now! Euros and yanks have many more options.
The point of this thread was to discuss why people leave. I still have no problem recommending CX to aussies(we aren't so bright) as I think it is the best option going for aussies.
As CX has been pushing for over a decade....MARKET FORCES. Personally I like seeing people leave(especially try hard and regret cx) as it means things might improve here and/or may put upward pressure on salary! But unfortunately many of our competitors have been offering salary and conditions inferior to us for many years (I am obviously ignoring some of the Euro LCC and US carriers). The chapter 11 sagas from the states have fed an insatiable airline appetite for hungry pilots but it appears, finally, the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way!
Try hard and regret cx...I dont have a problem with you leaving...I have a problem with what appears to be "I'm right, you are all idiots for staying" attitude. I can assure you I CHOOSE to stay...I dont think it is perfect in CX...it is just that my **** bucket isn't full yet...and my $$ bucket is nearly empty thanks to a mistimed divorce;-) So I will stay until my **** bucket gets full as that is far more likely than the $$ bucket ever being full. But there is more to life than money.
Viva la tolerance...why is it so important to have everyone agree with you? Accept that CX can drive some people crazy whilst people like me just laugh at the foibles of the system. I guess I work to live, not live to work, so maybe that is why I am so much more tolerant?!
I can't control what CX do...I cannot change how C+T is carried out...what I can do is control the environment in my cockpit (one advantage of the 4 stripes). For the 4 stripe challenged...you cant change what happens to you, you can only change your reaction to it! If you fly with someone you dont like, just remember it is only for a few hours. You dont have to socialise with him (I just realised why I am always alone on overnights!)...life is too short to let some 4bar or the system get you down.
Flying can be fun...lighten up. If CX isn't for you, move on. But dont piss on everyone that CHOOSES to stay!
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no fanfare
How come when a pilot leaves for another fleet or retires does the Chief Pilot make mention of it in their fleet news....but when they leave to go back to their old airline (or are fired), no mention, no accolades.
"FO Smith leaves us after 13 months of service to try to salvage whats left of his dignity. Good luck to him at his old job as a check captain at United..."
"FO Smith leaves us after 13 months of service to try to salvage whats left of his dignity. Good luck to him at his old job as a check captain at United..."
Capt TOGA: as a matter of fact I never flew with PD, ot TP or the other 777 FO's that went to VB. Sorry to dissappoint ya but I'm not a liar liar.
You know what happens when you ASSUME don't you?
Regret Cx:
I didn't say that did i? I am here defending the Cx system from you bunch slagging off crap, I didn't start this thread boyoh.
My Qf boast???? what the hell are you smoking?????? I have about 5 close friends in Qf ( 3 are Captians and 2 FO's ) and only yesterday the topic of standard calls on approach came up with one of them, it appears they have different calls for visual approaches, LWMO approaches and normal ILS approaches. That's what he told me after he asked me what we do in Cx. So tell me what do BA do then?
This is getting a little stupid don't you think????? You left Cx, we stayed. Now it's time to move on emotionally don't you think? you must learn to let it go or it will destroy you. Get on with your life.
You know what happens when you ASSUME don't you?
Regret Cx:
Well if you're so content and FO's are falling over themselves to fly with you (have a look in the mirror mate) then you really don't need to be on this website venting your spleen. You should be at the bar surrounded by the adoring ladies and the other guys that just wish they were you
PS I notice you have tried to qualify your QF boast. I am still open eared to your BA LVP assessment!! Be careful, sometimes BS can come back and bite you on the ass!!
This is getting a little stupid don't you think????? You left Cx, we stayed. Now it's time to move on emotionally don't you think? you must learn to let it go or it will destroy you. Get on with your life.
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Capt TOGA: as a matter of fact I never flew with PD, ot TP or the other 777 FO's that went to VB. Sorry to dissappoint ya but I'm not a liar liar.
You know what happens when you ASSUME don't you?
You know what happens when you ASSUME don't you?
The fact is this airline is going to have to move to a more modern way of thinking if it wants to grow. You cannot continue the present training and management system as the pilot numbers grow. The system will only alianate more and more FOs. You may notice that once you are a Captain here life is good. Hence ACMS and NC etc are pretty happy. For those of us taking the most of the abuse from the left seat and from the training department life is not so good. No surprise FOs and SOs are leaving.
When will the commercial side wake up to the problems that the training department is creating ?
FG
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ASMC
No FO that I have flown with in Cx has ever left the company either voluntarily or otherwise.
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What I don't understand is why you guys are at each other's throats over this.
Are you guys seriously hoping that management will peruse this forum and realize, "Oh, $hit, we've got to do something-quick."
I know some pretty naiive people, but...
If it is really that bad, wouldn't it make sense to stand up as a GROUP, and voice one's displeasures to the right channels?
Now you're going to say, "Ah, that won't work", or, "We've tried", or something like that.
The way I see it, if you're gonna walk, why not go out with a bang. I mean, you're going to leave anyway, right?
The grass all over the world has brown spots on it!
Are you guys seriously hoping that management will peruse this forum and realize, "Oh, $hit, we've got to do something-quick."
I know some pretty naiive people, but...
If it is really that bad, wouldn't it make sense to stand up as a GROUP, and voice one's displeasures to the right channels?
Now you're going to say, "Ah, that won't work", or, "We've tried", or something like that.
The way I see it, if you're gonna walk, why not go out with a bang. I mean, you're going to leave anyway, right?
The grass all over the world has brown spots on it!
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ACT700,
We are too afraid of getting sacked for doing that. I've never lived under communism, but I think Cathay is pretty close! Speaking up at Cathay Pacific is a death wish!
One of the high ranking Flight Operations manager is Phil Walker and his nickname is "Kim Jong Phil". Can you venture a guess? Like I said..these boys run the company like it was a Communist outfit.
Actually to be fair, the boys DID STAND UP, then the Company introduced the infamous 49ers, then we've been shut ever since. (re-enactment of Tinenimen Square)
To last a long time at Cathay Pacific, you must KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.
Just my two hongky dollars.
We are too afraid of getting sacked for doing that. I've never lived under communism, but I think Cathay is pretty close! Speaking up at Cathay Pacific is a death wish!
One of the high ranking Flight Operations manager is Phil Walker and his nickname is "Kim Jong Phil". Can you venture a guess? Like I said..these boys run the company like it was a Communist outfit.
Actually to be fair, the boys DID STAND UP, then the Company introduced the infamous 49ers, then we've been shut ever since. (re-enactment of Tinenimen Square)
To last a long time at Cathay Pacific, you must KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.
Just my two hongky dollars.
Last edited by C-152Captain; 28th Feb 2007 at 18:43.
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ACMS comments about dead U.S. helicopter pilots in Iraq
Several pages back, ACMS made some seriously nasty comments about dead U.S. chopper pilots in Iraq. You didn't manage to answer that post I made commenting about that I made earlier. Political beliefs aside, you are laughing at people who are dead and gone, with families left behind to grieve.
has the air in Hong Kong finally rotted your brain and deprived you of any honor or sensibilities whatsoever, or are you just a provacateur who enjoys stirring up people here?
Your comments were serious, and if you ever would say that in my presence, there would be a problem. Lucky you can stay anonymous and stir things up. I'll bet you are STC. Go to hell. Go to hell Cathay. This is my last post. Tools like ACMS are not worth my time. I don't care if I get kicked out. You are a s.o.b.
Administrator..... please cancel my access permanently.
has the air in Hong Kong finally rotted your brain and deprived you of any honor or sensibilities whatsoever, or are you just a provacateur who enjoys stirring up people here?
Your comments were serious, and if you ever would say that in my presence, there would be a problem. Lucky you can stay anonymous and stir things up. I'll bet you are STC. Go to hell. Go to hell Cathay. This is my last post. Tools like ACMS are not worth my time. I don't care if I get kicked out. You are a s.o.b.
Administrator..... please cancel my access permanently.
Well, I have sat here for the last hour or so and read through the ranting on this thread. Clearly there are some unhappy people out there and some (if not many) are about to do something about it.
Good luck to them, I really do wish them well. I hope the grass is as green as it appears from this side of the fence.
It would appear that much of the dissatisfaction rests at the door of the C&T department.
No names, clearly, but would you guys mind identifying the fleet or fleets in question because I'm afaraid I just don't see it on the Airbus or B777. Maybe I'm looking through rose tinted spectacles.
ACMS has taken a bit of a bashing for what he has written. Give the guy a break, he is a lone voice floating in a sea of villification trying to defend what he loves.
We all accept that things need to improve with respect to CoS, but honestly some of this gnashing of teeth will get us nowhere.
Now... you gentlemen/ladies who post from other companies having once worked for CX. I read your posts with interest, however none of you explain why you truly left CX. The venomous thins you say are of no help to anyone. Please, if you have something contsructive to add to the forum then do so, otherwise act with grace and honour and keep you private gripes to yourselves.
Good luck to them, I really do wish them well. I hope the grass is as green as it appears from this side of the fence.
It would appear that much of the dissatisfaction rests at the door of the C&T department.
No names, clearly, but would you guys mind identifying the fleet or fleets in question because I'm afaraid I just don't see it on the Airbus or B777. Maybe I'm looking through rose tinted spectacles.
ACMS has taken a bit of a bashing for what he has written. Give the guy a break, he is a lone voice floating in a sea of villification trying to defend what he loves.
We all accept that things need to improve with respect to CoS, but honestly some of this gnashing of teeth will get us nowhere.
Now... you gentlemen/ladies who post from other companies having once worked for CX. I read your posts with interest, however none of you explain why you truly left CX. The venomous thins you say are of no help to anyone. Please, if you have something contsructive to add to the forum then do so, otherwise act with grace and honour and keep you private gripes to yourselves.
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If you really need to ask people why they left then you have got your rose coloured specs on. The reasons for leaving are too numerous to list and are really quite obvious if you scroll through this thread again. If you like I'll shortlist a few.
****** Trainers
****** management
****** Captains
Crap staff travel
Crap medical
Crap leave system
Crap request system
Crap rosters
Crap hotels
Polluted air
Poisonous working environment
endless BS to get in the LHS
four different pay scales
rife nepotism
poor treatment of S/O's
having to deal with those mutants in Crew Control
(out of breath, but that will be good for a start)
Let me guess you're an A scaler right? And only spent 3 years in the right seat before you had a few sectors of beers with one of your ex-airforce buddies and then just tootled on your way to "commander" .
Times have changed mate.....Let me tell you it ain't no party any more!
****** Trainers
****** management
****** Captains
Crap staff travel
Crap medical
Crap leave system
Crap request system
Crap rosters
Crap hotels
Polluted air
Poisonous working environment
endless BS to get in the LHS
four different pay scales
rife nepotism
poor treatment of S/O's
having to deal with those mutants in Crew Control
(out of breath, but that will be good for a start)
Let me guess you're an A scaler right? And only spent 3 years in the right seat before you had a few sectors of beers with one of your ex-airforce buddies and then just tootled on your way to "commander"
.Times have changed mate.....Let me tell you it ain't no party any more!
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I too have sat here reading the rants, most of them I will not comment on.
regretCX, you have compiled a lengthy list of reasons CX is not the perfect airline and I can't argue with you with that. Do I hope things will change...absolutely! Do I think things will change...only maybe.
If you asked me a week ago what I thought, I would have told you that CX is screwed and in 12-24 months they will be parking many aircraft. Now I'm not so sure. I think the lucky b*stards might be landing on their feet again.
Yesterday the markets had a major correction. Many believe today is the calm before a bigger storm. Also, the US overstated its growth in 2006 by 1/3rd. That is huge! If we are on the doorstep of a major recession then the massive growth CX planned and can't cope with can be cancelled. They will dodge another bullet.
Those leaving CX are leaving many problems but also a secure job. They can have a great job with United but will they get furloughed next year or the year after? Who knows but that is one of the very few advantages with CX.
Just my two cents worth!
regretCX, you have compiled a lengthy list of reasons CX is not the perfect airline and I can't argue with you with that. Do I hope things will change...absolutely! Do I think things will change...only maybe.
If you asked me a week ago what I thought, I would have told you that CX is screwed and in 12-24 months they will be parking many aircraft. Now I'm not so sure. I think the lucky b*stards might be landing on their feet again.
Yesterday the markets had a major correction. Many believe today is the calm before a bigger storm. Also, the US overstated its growth in 2006 by 1/3rd. That is huge! If we are on the doorstep of a major recession then the massive growth CX planned and can't cope with can be cancelled. They will dodge another bullet.
Those leaving CX are leaving many problems but also a secure job. They can have a great job with United but will they get furloughed next year or the year after? Who knows but that is one of the very few advantages with CX.
Just my two cents worth!
Read my lips...............( i know you can't )
"I have never flown with P D", but from what others say it would have been a great trip, my loss.
Maybe it's time I stopped reacting to the crap you guys put forward. As soon as I defend myself you sling more crap
A lose lose situation for me.
)"I have never flown with P D", but from what others say it would have been a great trip, my loss.
Maybe it's time I stopped reacting to the crap you guys put forward. As soon as I defend myself you sling more crap
A lose lose situation for me.