CX-What's news?
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Snake Hips,
It is an excellent question you ask regarding the B-Scalers. The strength of feeling seems to be with the HKG based guys and I note that after you talk to them for a while and they get the "whinge element" out of the way (hell..we all feel like a whinge now and then) I think Spineless is spot on; the thing that really grips the guys is the way all staff are managed; DT's treatment of HAECO is often quoted.
In all the whinging, you will rarely, if ever, hear complaints about the Airline; most guys struggled to make it here and once here want CX to be the best; best service; best maintainance; best profit.
It is the frustration of not witnessing the airline realise its potential that has lead to intelligent and articulate guys like Nigel Demery being cheered on by hundreds of pilots (A, B and C scale) as he plots ways to constrict CX's profit. If only that effort could have been harnessed to maximise our profit and constrict the profit of SQ, VS, ... very sad.
Traffic,
No nothing to do with the Oasis fracas. Comes from my ASL days when I was also "banned from Cathay". Love the analogy regarding the prefects. However, I fear the Board of Govenors have stepped in and expelled a few errant children (and a few good ones just to keep the inky swots on their toes). I fear more expulsions and the occasional flogging if any more talking after lights out..
King Kong et al,
I cannot see how a temporary lifting of the ban would work. However, given the ban is actually an IFALPA ban, have you put your arguments to them either directly or by way of your own Union?
It is an excellent question you ask regarding the B-Scalers. The strength of feeling seems to be with the HKG based guys and I note that after you talk to them for a while and they get the "whinge element" out of the way (hell..we all feel like a whinge now and then) I think Spineless is spot on; the thing that really grips the guys is the way all staff are managed; DT's treatment of HAECO is often quoted.
In all the whinging, you will rarely, if ever, hear complaints about the Airline; most guys struggled to make it here and once here want CX to be the best; best service; best maintainance; best profit.
It is the frustration of not witnessing the airline realise its potential that has lead to intelligent and articulate guys like Nigel Demery being cheered on by hundreds of pilots (A, B and C scale) as he plots ways to constrict CX's profit. If only that effort could have been harnessed to maximise our profit and constrict the profit of SQ, VS, ... very sad.
Traffic,
No nothing to do with the Oasis fracas. Comes from my ASL days when I was also "banned from Cathay". Love the analogy regarding the prefects. However, I fear the Board of Govenors have stepped in and expelled a few errant children (and a few good ones just to keep the inky swots on their toes). I fear more expulsions and the occasional flogging if any more talking after lights out..
King Kong et al,
I cannot see how a temporary lifting of the ban would work. However, given the ban is actually an IFALPA ban, have you put your arguments to them either directly or by way of your own Union?
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Who are the real people 'stealing the jobs of the 49ers'??
A couple of questions for you: What do the 49er's think of the upgrades in Cathay at the moment. Can the upgradee's look these guys (the 49er's) straight in the eyes?
What has been the experience so far?
A couple of questions for you: What do the 49er's think of the upgrades in Cathay at the moment. Can the upgradee's look these guys (the 49er's) straight in the eyes?
What has been the experience so far?
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KK,
The "real people that stole the jobs of the 49ers" is the management of CX. Moreover, they have "stolen" the career of every CX employee. Our contracts of employment can be changed on the whim of the company on 3 months notice.
When the 49ers were terminated the company did not advertise or advance 49 upgrades. Bear in mind CX the Roster Practices imposed at about the same time generated a lot of extra crews.
Any response from IFALPA yet?
The "real people that stole the jobs of the 49ers" is the management of CX. Moreover, they have "stolen" the career of every CX employee. Our contracts of employment can be changed on the whim of the company on 3 months notice.
When the 49ers were terminated the company did not advertise or advance 49 upgrades. Bear in mind CX the Roster Practices imposed at about the same time generated a lot of extra crews.
Any response from IFALPA yet?
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Spineless, actually the ruler of the underworld, god of furtility (both human and crop wise) which also made him a God of the Nile. Son of Horos and husban of Isis - thank you on your compliment. As for you moniker.....
I don't profess to have been here since the dawn of time but perhaps alittle longer than 5 minutes.
Please don't get me wrong I'm not against everything the union does, if you look back at my comments they are specifically about the ban. Which I have no reservation in saying is a cowardly act. Somone said it above it was the company who dismissed these people therefore, it is the company's fault. The ban has no affect on the company so I say it again the wrong people are being punished. The new joiners have done nothing other than want to work for what was and will be again one of the best airlines in the world and their opportunity to do so has been in the middle of all this - it is simply unfair.
To rub salt into the wounds of anyone struggling on this decision and probably making their minds up for them, is the fact that union members have and are accepting upgrades to replace these people. If their former work mates don't give a flying ... about them why should anyone else ?
I don't profess to have been here since the dawn of time but perhaps alittle longer than 5 minutes.
Please don't get me wrong I'm not against everything the union does, if you look back at my comments they are specifically about the ban. Which I have no reservation in saying is a cowardly act. Somone said it above it was the company who dismissed these people therefore, it is the company's fault. The ban has no affect on the company so I say it again the wrong people are being punished. The new joiners have done nothing other than want to work for what was and will be again one of the best airlines in the world and their opportunity to do so has been in the middle of all this - it is simply unfair.
To rub salt into the wounds of anyone struggling on this decision and probably making their minds up for them, is the fact that union members have and are accepting upgrades to replace these people. If their former work mates don't give a flying ... about them why should anyone else ?
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Spineless/Liam thanks for the enlightenment re B scale unhappiness. I'm not still not 100% convinced life is SO bad for this group but then again I don't work their rosters.
Based on what we were told yesterday about parking 6 (I think) aircraft in January I suspect roster stablility won't be an issue at least for the first half of 2002.
A recurrent theme is how aircrew are managed. IS it simply the old one of a lack of 'people skills' from individuals who maybe good operators but when office bound
have no idea how to manage staff? Surely there are some stars? What would you do differently? A mass clear out and start again? Maybe JF/ND could reciprocate?
God this is depressing. There really is very little reason to be optimistic is there.
SH
Based on what we were told yesterday about parking 6 (I think) aircraft in January I suspect roster stablility won't be an issue at least for the first half of 2002.
A recurrent theme is how aircrew are managed. IS it simply the old one of a lack of 'people skills' from individuals who maybe good operators but when office bound
have no idea how to manage staff? Surely there are some stars? What would you do differently? A mass clear out and start again? Maybe JF/ND could reciprocate?
God this is depressing. There really is very little reason to be optimistic is there.
SH
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Orisis,
"If their former workmates don't give a flying..."
Anyone of the 1200 or so guys giving up 4% of their salary to support the 49ers, or indeed the handful of guys recently demoted for practicing MSS could take real offence over this comment.
Glad I don't have your sense of "reality".
P.S. Before you start preaching to us how it really is at Cathay, don't you think it would be a good idea to finish Ground School?
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]
"If their former workmates don't give a flying..."
Anyone of the 1200 or so guys giving up 4% of their salary to support the 49ers, or indeed the handful of guys recently demoted for practicing MSS could take real offence over this comment.
Glad I don't have your sense of "reality".
P.S. Before you start preaching to us how it really is at Cathay, don't you think it would be a good idea to finish Ground School?
[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]
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Liam, well and truely out of ground school, thanks. The extra 4% is simply the cost of union membership these days, I know you'll say but we all voted on it, which is fine but if you listen around the cockpit you may hear alot of people regretting that decision (I know I have).
Frankg, I am very sorry for not updating my profile for many years, its nice to know you care so much to look me up. I am not a member of the AOA nor have I ever been a member of any IFALPA union, actually no union at all.
Obviously a post 89 hothead, please a little advice if I may - it was 12 years ago get over it get on with your life, theres not that long left and you shouldn't spend the rest of it so bitter and twisted. Once again, a scab is someone who crosses a union line ie during a strike or it is dried blood that helps mend a wound, neither of these definitions make sense in your context, so I think a poor choice of word. Thank you once again for your invitation to join your happy little club but for about the sixth time no, sorry I forgot exclusive. Now take a couple of deep breaths.
Frankg, I am very sorry for not updating my profile for many years, its nice to know you care so much to look me up. I am not a member of the AOA nor have I ever been a member of any IFALPA union, actually no union at all.
Obviously a post 89 hothead, please a little advice if I may - it was 12 years ago get over it get on with your life, theres not that long left and you shouldn't spend the rest of it so bitter and twisted. Once again, a scab is someone who crosses a union line ie during a strike or it is dried blood that helps mend a wound, neither of these definitions make sense in your context, so I think a poor choice of word. Thank you once again for your invitation to join your happy little club but for about the sixth time no, sorry I forgot exclusive. Now take a couple of deep breaths.
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The reading of the posts just confirms the state of affairs at Cathay. Sad really. The 90's seemed to slowly ruin the once greatest flying job. The quality of new recruitment seems to have fallen as well. Emirates looks like it might be the next best thing. Good luck to all.
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Orisis,
In late August you stated that you had an offer of employment from CX, so at best you spent September in Ground School, October in the Sim and you have probably done 6 or so training sectors.
So next time you are flying with a BIF TC or TFO (ie.. not one from the USA..ho ho) say to him the following (you will recognise all these words)...
"I have been here longer than 5 minutes; you are obviously a post 89 hothead; please a little advice if I may - it was 12 years ago GET OVER IT"
If the guy has an AOA tie pin or 100% AOA sticker on his Nav Bag, or better still a yellow ID holder or biro; weave into the conversation that he is a coward and has deserted the 49ers and the extra 4% of salary he pays to the union is "simply the cost of union membership these days".
I suggest you do it early in the sector, perhaps in the crew bus. Let us know how you get on...Debrief should be real exciting!!
Cheers,
Liam
[ 24 November 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]
In late August you stated that you had an offer of employment from CX, so at best you spent September in Ground School, October in the Sim and you have probably done 6 or so training sectors.
So next time you are flying with a BIF TC or TFO (ie.. not one from the USA..ho ho) say to him the following (you will recognise all these words)...
"I have been here longer than 5 minutes; you are obviously a post 89 hothead; please a little advice if I may - it was 12 years ago GET OVER IT"
If the guy has an AOA tie pin or 100% AOA sticker on his Nav Bag, or better still a yellow ID holder or biro; weave into the conversation that he is a coward and has deserted the 49ers and the extra 4% of salary he pays to the union is "simply the cost of union membership these days".
I suggest you do it early in the sector, perhaps in the crew bus. Let us know how you get on...Debrief should be real exciting!!
Cheers,
Liam
[ 24 November 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]
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Why is it so difficult to drop the recruitment ban for just two weeks to assess
the company's motives. The ban is currently
meaningless, so give them a chance to talk.
If they don't come to the table sensibly,then
re-instate the ban with MSS LIA CC whatever.
Whose faces are being saved by the current
impasse, certainly not the 49ers, maybe the
AOA committees?
Better still drop the ban for a week, no talk
fine, vote for full LIA and further action at
the EGM. Sitting/waiting is not progress.
the company's motives. The ban is currently
meaningless, so give them a chance to talk.
If they don't come to the table sensibly,then
re-instate the ban with MSS LIA CC whatever.
Whose faces are being saved by the current
impasse, certainly not the 49ers, maybe the
AOA committees?
Better still drop the ban for a week, no talk
fine, vote for full LIA and further action at
the EGM. Sitting/waiting is not progress.
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I speak as an outsider looking in, but it seems to me that a lot of what is going on between CX and the AOA is pretty well based on personal vendettas, rather that the cold facts. The current climate isn't a great one for anyone, pilots or management, so why can't both sides put their differences aside for long enough to sit down and talk.
As a recently redundant pilot myself, I would have no hesitation in taking a job with CX; when it is a choice between being banned from a union, and feeding my family, there is no choice.
Grow up guys.
As a recently redundant pilot myself, I would have no hesitation in taking a job with CX; when it is a choice between being banned from a union, and feeding my family, there is no choice.
Grow up guys.
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Rod Eddington and others,
We understand the need to feed one's family. However, unions are private clubs and vet prospective members because they want to be certain that come the day of industrial action (and there have been a few in CX), the member is not going to pretend to support the union and then quietly not participate because he realises he may (or in case of CX will) be fired/demoted.
I make no judgement on a person who choses to ignore a union directive so long as they do so openly and if necesary resign from the union, or in your case, understand that you will not be welcome in the AOA. Essentially, do what you have to do openly and front up to the consequences.
The current empasses is not due to personalities. It is due to one or both sides feeling their position at the table is not yet strong enough and the ban is but a convenient excuse.
It has been suggested that the ban could be temporarily lifted. I am not saying it wont happen, but I do struggle to see how this would operate. Can someone flesh it out? Would it also apply to the guys suspended/blacklisted for not following AOA directives other than the IFALPA ban?
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]
We understand the need to feed one's family. However, unions are private clubs and vet prospective members because they want to be certain that come the day of industrial action (and there have been a few in CX), the member is not going to pretend to support the union and then quietly not participate because he realises he may (or in case of CX will) be fired/demoted.
I make no judgement on a person who choses to ignore a union directive so long as they do so openly and if necesary resign from the union, or in your case, understand that you will not be welcome in the AOA. Essentially, do what you have to do openly and front up to the consequences.
The current empasses is not due to personalities. It is due to one or both sides feeling their position at the table is not yet strong enough and the ban is but a convenient excuse.
It has been suggested that the ban could be temporarily lifted. I am not saying it wont happen, but I do struggle to see how this would operate. Can someone flesh it out? Would it also apply to the guys suspended/blacklisted for not following AOA directives other than the IFALPA ban?
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]
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For what it's worth, I don't believe IFALPA will lift any ban whilst the 49ers remain unemployed. Anyone disagree? Sadly, a return to sensible negotiation therefore seems unlikey whilst the lifting of any ban is a pre-condition.
The EGM on 12th is clearly going to be key. The DB B scale 'nothing to lose' brigade and the comittee will probably want to up the ante but at a time of (hopefully temporary) surplus. Others I have spoken to simply want an 'end to it all' but with some gurantees on rostering. Tricky one eh?
I personally believe any serious (re)introduction of action which 'hurts' the company in the current climate, will be met with a)incredulity and b)a draconian response. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
The EGM on 12th is clearly going to be key. The DB B scale 'nothing to lose' brigade and the comittee will probably want to up the ante but at a time of (hopefully temporary) surplus. Others I have spoken to simply want an 'end to it all' but with some gurantees on rostering. Tricky one eh?
I personally believe any serious (re)introduction of action which 'hurts' the company in the current climate, will be met with a)incredulity and b)a draconian response. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
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Cathay are parking 8 a/c over the coming months, so why worry about the ban? No recruitment, as they already have far too many moaning Aussie pilots! Think laterally, I believe they(personnel) were seen in London recently, interviews?? (200+ replacement pilots, with good attitudes, hard to resist, I guess)
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Replacement of ALL the malcontents would be welcome, i'm sure. The AOA guys just do NOT get the picture. Their "cause" is d-e-a-d (expired, kaput), pure and simple. When will they wake up I wonder?
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My guess is, if CX decide to get rid of 200 pilots by May 2002, the boys and girls at the bottom of the seniority list will not be the first to go. In the current climate, given the state of relations between the AOA and the company, the management would probably incline to divesting themselves of the malcontents. Could be some good housing deals to be had in DB soon.
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Loads, personally haven't flown with less than 80% in the last 6 weeks, though the company is saying LF is closer to 60%
Parking A/C, anything between 7 and 14 depending on who you listen to, but doubt thee not, A/C will be parked
Hiring, in light of the above I would say not a lot.
Parking A/C, anything between 7 and 14 depending on who you listen to, but doubt thee not, A/C will be parked
Hiring, in light of the above I would say not a lot.