Any Good opinions of Cathay??
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Cambridge, UK
Age: 55
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any Good opinions of Cathay??
Lately, with the strike, I have heard A LOT of bad press over CX. Does anyone that works for them like it and have anything positive to say?
I am interested in the company (not as a scab, that isn't an option for me) but have read post after post about how bad they are. People still work for them and they are still earning money, so there must be some good aspects.
Any replies welcome, thanks in advance.
I am interested in the company (not as a scab, that isn't an option for me) but have read post after post about how bad they are. People still work for them and they are still earning money, so there must be some good aspects.
Any replies welcome, thanks in advance.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This forum is not filled with hugely positive comments about the company, especially during the present dispute. For
a pilot CX USED to be serious money, pretty good lifestyle, not too much stress and flying decent kit. Plenty of play time and spare cash for the toys and/or second and third property or business venture.
The company then started to address the high cost base in HK compared with other operators competing in the region. Allied to this was a fundamental change in attitude to aircrew. Incidentally I would argue Cathay are not unique in this. Aircrew globally are now regarded as simply one more group of airline employees. Yes more crucial to the operation than the finance manager or check in agent but still just one more group of employees. This is despite the seniority system which is (uniquely) in place within flying. Pilots also used to 'enjoy' a status within airlines which no longer exists.
These factors, together with pay cuts for
pre 1993 crew, new pay scales for new joiners, imposed contracts because of failed negotiations have soured many. The usual
contributors on this forum will tell you CX is no longer a 'career' airline.
I would simply judge for yourself. Speak to
people away from a bar! The airline has a very good product, has invested in lots of shiny new metal recently and,longer term,
has serious expansion plans. Get advice on pay and benefits, living in HK (if applicable) do some sums, specifically on retirment benefits and then make an informed decision. Some great operators flying for
CX who still love flying, they just hate the politics. You might just find it not as bad as you have been led to believe.
Regards
SH
a pilot CX USED to be serious money, pretty good lifestyle, not too much stress and flying decent kit. Plenty of play time and spare cash for the toys and/or second and third property or business venture.
The company then started to address the high cost base in HK compared with other operators competing in the region. Allied to this was a fundamental change in attitude to aircrew. Incidentally I would argue Cathay are not unique in this. Aircrew globally are now regarded as simply one more group of airline employees. Yes more crucial to the operation than the finance manager or check in agent but still just one more group of employees. This is despite the seniority system which is (uniquely) in place within flying. Pilots also used to 'enjoy' a status within airlines which no longer exists.
These factors, together with pay cuts for
pre 1993 crew, new pay scales for new joiners, imposed contracts because of failed negotiations have soured many. The usual
contributors on this forum will tell you CX is no longer a 'career' airline.
I would simply judge for yourself. Speak to
people away from a bar! The airline has a very good product, has invested in lots of shiny new metal recently and,longer term,
has serious expansion plans. Get advice on pay and benefits, living in HK (if applicable) do some sums, specifically on retirment benefits and then make an informed decision. Some great operators flying for
CX who still love flying, they just hate the politics. You might just find it not as bad as you have been led to believe.
Regards
SH
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: ec
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Snake:
Why would an airline in times of a looming recession buy new planes and expand???? What does your mgmnt know ours (LH) doesnt? We are cutting routes to Rio, Lima taskent and New York and a few others because of all the economic problems coming.
Also I have a personal question asked before but it remained unanswered. Are the based guys with cx a different lot? All of you refer to living in HKG and the money and rostering involved. But doesent cx based more and more pilots out? If yes are they considered by the HKG guys a different group than you? Or are they not affected by the union thing going on, and their rostering/contract is different/better for example. Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me. Many thanks!
Why would an airline in times of a looming recession buy new planes and expand???? What does your mgmnt know ours (LH) doesnt? We are cutting routes to Rio, Lima taskent and New York and a few others because of all the economic problems coming.
Also I have a personal question asked before but it remained unanswered. Are the based guys with cx a different lot? All of you refer to living in HKG and the money and rostering involved. But doesent cx based more and more pilots out? If yes are they considered by the HKG guys a different group than you? Or are they not affected by the union thing going on, and their rostering/contract is different/better for example. Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me. Many thanks!
Join Date: Oct 1998
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For captains and relief F/O's expect to be away from your N.A. base 18 to 20 days per month. Factor in the 9 to 12 time zones and , well, you don't have a life. And remember, you're working on a 90 day contract.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another rational and mature posting from Kubota. Remember Pouda, Kubota and his ilk
still hang around like a bad smell even though they clearly despise the people they work for. Sad isn't it.
As I said, make an informed decision and don't rely solely on this forum.
CWS Our industry is cyclical as you know. Everyone is suffering now and there will be pain over the short term. Remember, as your chairman pointed out very recently, it is cheaper (in real terms) to buy a ticket now than 20 years ago. It is therefore hardly surprising it is difficult to make a buck.
Longer term CX needs to grow for several reasons. One is SQ's threat in the region and two is a need to dominate CLK slots rather like LH in FRA, BA in LHR, SQ in SIN etc. Aircraft production slots are now available (and going cheap) so a good time to think expansion.
Re basings. If you are recruited to base, you are not regarded by the HKG crew as
outsiders if that is your question. Different deals depending on location North America, Europe or Australia.
ASLr - I assume no one forced you to go on a NA base? 18-20 days away from base so between 11 to 13 days at home per month. Hey that's tough.
You all have a nice day now.
still hang around like a bad smell even though they clearly despise the people they work for. Sad isn't it.
As I said, make an informed decision and don't rely solely on this forum.
CWS Our industry is cyclical as you know. Everyone is suffering now and there will be pain over the short term. Remember, as your chairman pointed out very recently, it is cheaper (in real terms) to buy a ticket now than 20 years ago. It is therefore hardly surprising it is difficult to make a buck.
Longer term CX needs to grow for several reasons. One is SQ's threat in the region and two is a need to dominate CLK slots rather like LH in FRA, BA in LHR, SQ in SIN etc. Aircraft production slots are now available (and going cheap) so a good time to think expansion.
Re basings. If you are recruited to base, you are not regarded by the HKG crew as
outsiders if that is your question. Different deals depending on location North America, Europe or Australia.
ASLr - I assume no one forced you to go on a NA base? 18-20 days away from base so between 11 to 13 days at home per month. Hey that's tough.
You all have a nice day now.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: ec
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you for info. A friend of mine way up in our mgmnt had a similar reason. Only spilled it to me yesterday. He mentioned cx will follow the sq system of expansion - expand into recession, build lounges, infrastructure and seats etc.. so when the upturn comes you are in the right place. It worked for them once before. Time will tell if does again. One thing to consider is that all this works with a loyal and motivated lot of employees. Firing 50 + with no reason leaves marks with the remaining, not only pilots. Who knows when your boss simply dishonors the signed paper and fires you. Dont think that action made the crowds happy and motivated- and definetely not loyal, as I wrote in main forum. Expansion is good but you should be aware with whom you are expanding.
Re basings-thanks for the info. Appeared to us here in ec that all the negotiations, rostering problems etc.. was only with the hkg based crews. Can imagine that the rosters on the bases are somewhat more stable since there is less on the book to fly.
snake, last question: Are you going to expand the basings or will cx eventually bring back all crews to hkg. Or is it in the interest of cx to base the crews out of hkg in the long run. We are having a "little " problem with our company on that topic. We are trying to bring them to offer basings as well, but so far we are lacking arguments.
Thank you.
Im off for a trip, all the best
cws
Re basings-thanks for the info. Appeared to us here in ec that all the negotiations, rostering problems etc.. was only with the hkg based crews. Can imagine that the rosters on the bases are somewhat more stable since there is less on the book to fly.
snake, last question: Are you going to expand the basings or will cx eventually bring back all crews to hkg. Or is it in the interest of cx to base the crews out of hkg in the long run. We are having a "little " problem with our company on that topic. We are trying to bring them to offer basings as well, but so far we are lacking arguments.
Thank you.
Im off for a trip, all the best
cws
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CWS
Agree totally, the current state affairs is appalling. The problem with this forum however, is you will generally hear only one side of the debate. If you dare disagree, you are subject ot varying degrees of vitriol.
Re expansion. Hong Kong is an expensive place to do business, that includes employing expats. It would therefore seem
sensible to keep recruiting and moving people to bases. I also believe you are correct in that base rosters are more stable.
For your own company, you will need to convince them the economics of basing crew makes sense. Do beware of the complexities it can bring to rostering.
Have a good trip
Agree totally, the current state affairs is appalling. The problem with this forum however, is you will generally hear only one side of the debate. If you dare disagree, you are subject ot varying degrees of vitriol.
Re expansion. Hong Kong is an expensive place to do business, that includes employing expats. It would therefore seem
sensible to keep recruiting and moving people to bases. I also believe you are correct in that base rosters are more stable.
For your own company, you will need to convince them the economics of basing crew makes sense. Do beware of the complexities it can bring to rostering.
Have a good trip
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello,
I recently was interviewed and would like to work for CX. I don't know the whole history of why its so bad right now but considering the options elsewhere it seemed like a good organisation to me. The in-flight service was top-notch and the facilities in HK excellent. The pay/benefits comparable to other airlines and pnly the time away from the base seemed bad. Any comments before I have to accept or turn down an offer? What about the scab issue regarding accepting employment now and joining the unuion or not. We were told only we didn't have to join, but in reality, to get along with the other aircrew, is it a necessity, or will new guys be shunned just because of when they were hired regardless of what they do?
I recently was interviewed and would like to work for CX. I don't know the whole history of why its so bad right now but considering the options elsewhere it seemed like a good organisation to me. The in-flight service was top-notch and the facilities in HK excellent. The pay/benefits comparable to other airlines and pnly the time away from the base seemed bad. Any comments before I have to accept or turn down an offer? What about the scab issue regarding accepting employment now and joining the unuion or not. We were told only we didn't have to join, but in reality, to get along with the other aircrew, is it a necessity, or will new guys be shunned just because of when they were hired regardless of what they do?
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello,
I was there recently for an interview and was impressed by the company. I don't completely understand the extent of the ill will. The flight service was excellent and the facilities in HK were first rate. The pay is similar if not better that the other main airlines available to me and only the time away seemed unattractive. Also the aircraft are new and big. Before I have to accept or refuse a potential offer, can anyone give info on the situation? I am interested to know if new guys would be shunned regardless of whether or not they joined the HKAOA. Would they be considered scabs regardless just because of when they were hired?
I was there recently for an interview and was impressed by the company. I don't completely understand the extent of the ill will. The flight service was excellent and the facilities in HK were first rate. The pay is similar if not better that the other main airlines available to me and only the time away seemed unattractive. Also the aircraft are new and big. Before I have to accept or refuse a potential offer, can anyone give info on the situation? I am interested to know if new guys would be shunned regardless of whether or not they joined the HKAOA. Would they be considered scabs regardless just because of when they were hired?
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Sydney
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EGT and your guild
I have recently received an offer of employment from CX. While I appreciate that I don't know all there is to know about the problems up there and I very much sympathise with those who lost their jobs, I think it is worthy of considering a few points.
I and many others like me have been applying to CX for along time, well before the initial problems in 99. It is most unfortunate that the time they decided to call me has been now.
I will be taking a position as a S/O. Am I really going to take the job of the Cpt with 23 years experience with the company? I was under the impression that the idea was to get him his job back not demote him several positions. Will the upgraded S/O's and F/O's feel the wrath of the union?
Disallowing membership to the unions. Why? I would have thought that you would have wanted more membership and less individual contracts, is that not the philosophy of unions? I am currently a member of a union and was more than willing to sign up with the AOA if invited. If this is not the case then so be it and if you don't like it then I don't really care, because it is your short sightedness. If you intend to keep this attitude until the 51 get reinstated then unfortunately (sincerely) I feel that with the current recruitment going on, it won't be long before you are well into a minority and do you really think that those you ostracized are going to come to your aid if you need it?
Blacklisting from the unions. At my age this is probably the last opportunity I am going to get to work for an international airline and certainly the last in HK. Therefore if I join the company and am never allowed to join the union, or if I give up my ambition to fly internationally, the result is the same so again I don't care.
A Scab is something that heals wounds. I don't find this offensive.
All those who were at some stage in the position of being able to fulfill their career ambition and knocked it back because someone else told them to please raise your hands. (those with their hands up are either unemployed or liars).
If someone can rationally explain to me why the Unions have decided to take this stance, I would honestly like to know. I understand how emotive this issue is so please refrain if you feel the need to chastise me, as if you take that approach then again I don't care.
My head is on the block so start swinging.
I have recently received an offer of employment from CX. While I appreciate that I don't know all there is to know about the problems up there and I very much sympathise with those who lost their jobs, I think it is worthy of considering a few points.
I and many others like me have been applying to CX for along time, well before the initial problems in 99. It is most unfortunate that the time they decided to call me has been now.
I will be taking a position as a S/O. Am I really going to take the job of the Cpt with 23 years experience with the company? I was under the impression that the idea was to get him his job back not demote him several positions. Will the upgraded S/O's and F/O's feel the wrath of the union?
Disallowing membership to the unions. Why? I would have thought that you would have wanted more membership and less individual contracts, is that not the philosophy of unions? I am currently a member of a union and was more than willing to sign up with the AOA if invited. If this is not the case then so be it and if you don't like it then I don't really care, because it is your short sightedness. If you intend to keep this attitude until the 51 get reinstated then unfortunately (sincerely) I feel that with the current recruitment going on, it won't be long before you are well into a minority and do you really think that those you ostracized are going to come to your aid if you need it?
Blacklisting from the unions. At my age this is probably the last opportunity I am going to get to work for an international airline and certainly the last in HK. Therefore if I join the company and am never allowed to join the union, or if I give up my ambition to fly internationally, the result is the same so again I don't care.
A Scab is something that heals wounds. I don't find this offensive.
All those who were at some stage in the position of being able to fulfill their career ambition and knocked it back because someone else told them to please raise your hands. (those with their hands up are either unemployed or liars).
If someone can rationally explain to me why the Unions have decided to take this stance, I would honestly like to know. I understand how emotive this issue is so please refrain if you feel the need to chastise me, as if you take that approach then again I don't care.
My head is on the block so start swinging.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: N. America
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well no doubt you're about to get flamed to death by the more rabid unionists, but good for you. I am in precisely your position, my application to CX predates this current dispute by several years, so it's difficult to contemplate chucking the opportunity at this late stage because of poor timing beyond my control.
I, too, have observed the many requests for an answer to the question of whether current CX pilots will accept upgrades until the 52 (51 now I think) are reinstated. So far, I haven't seen a single response either way. It would certainly be the ultimate show of solidarity to have pilots refusing upgrade training to avoid taking the positions of their sacked comrades.
Anyway, you covered pretty much exactly the points I was preparing to voice, and I thank you.
Good luck to all involved.
I, too, have observed the many requests for an answer to the question of whether current CX pilots will accept upgrades until the 52 (51 now I think) are reinstated. So far, I haven't seen a single response either way. It would certainly be the ultimate show of solidarity to have pilots refusing upgrade training to avoid taking the positions of their sacked comrades.
Anyway, you covered pretty much exactly the points I was preparing to voice, and I thank you.
Good luck to all involved.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Aluetian Islands
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't believe what I read here. If you are a member of any ALPA, you are obliged as a member in good standing to abide by the IFALPA request for assistance. Your own ALPA has probably benefited from similar arrangements in the past.
For those who disagree with the AOAs actions to date, if you are members of the AOA you have a voice and a vote, so use it. No association is going to accept directions from an anonymous bulletin board. Our dispute is our business, so don't go telling us off if we don't carry it out in a manner which pleases you. In particular, I don't see why the AOA should change very successful tactics merely to please you. The IFALPA request for assistance is only one of many. Just because you haven't bothered to find out what is really going on doesn't make it the only tactic.
Lastly, can't you wait to join CX for a month or so? If you do join in this period of ban, you will never be accepted as an ALPA member of any ALPA organistion. That's the rules of a voluntary, mutual association. You don't like it and want to do your own thing, that's your perogative; but don't go whining when you are sacked with no notice while on leave. It has happened for real, and the non-members are the ones left with no options.
This is not a charity; it is not a game; it is not set up for the benefit of a selfish neophyte who can't wait a few weeks. This is for real. It is very serious, very legal and a struggle between two determined organistions. It's not your fight, so I suggest you get your head down and keep out of the way.
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: St_Paul_Island ]
For those who disagree with the AOAs actions to date, if you are members of the AOA you have a voice and a vote, so use it. No association is going to accept directions from an anonymous bulletin board. Our dispute is our business, so don't go telling us off if we don't carry it out in a manner which pleases you. In particular, I don't see why the AOA should change very successful tactics merely to please you. The IFALPA request for assistance is only one of many. Just because you haven't bothered to find out what is really going on doesn't make it the only tactic.
Lastly, can't you wait to join CX for a month or so? If you do join in this period of ban, you will never be accepted as an ALPA member of any ALPA organistion. That's the rules of a voluntary, mutual association. You don't like it and want to do your own thing, that's your perogative; but don't go whining when you are sacked with no notice while on leave. It has happened for real, and the non-members are the ones left with no options.
This is not a charity; it is not a game; it is not set up for the benefit of a selfish neophyte who can't wait a few weeks. This is for real. It is very serious, very legal and a struggle between two determined organistions. It's not your fight, so I suggest you get your head down and keep out of the way.
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: St_Paul_Island ]
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a disgusting bunch you are who expect pilots at the bottom of the heap to fight the fight you have started and now do not have the resolve to finish.
To those in the recruitment stream, if you get offered a job with CX, take it!
To those in the recruitment stream, if you get offered a job with CX, take it!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<...ALPA will never accept you...>
Hmm, don't think so guys. ALPA just did that very thing, accept into their fold, with many Continental pilots.
<....the battle that management expect to lose...>
These AOA guys must be dreaming, or smoking the really cheap stuff.
Hmm, don't think so guys. ALPA just did that very thing, accept into their fold, with many Continental pilots.
<....the battle that management expect to lose...>
These AOA guys must be dreaming, or smoking the really cheap stuff.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
I really hate to have to say this, gentlemen, however as mature, thinking adults, I'm sure that YOU, and your rotten, lousy mismanagement, realise that new (intake) Second/First Officers won't tip the scale either way. When it's all boiled down, it will come fairly onto the shoulders of the C&T personnel. Obviously it will be a brave man who will refuse to train, however....the length of training MUST be a consideration. For example, in the company for which I work, the C'ers & T'ers believe that management are trying to pursue unrealistic objectives by promoting F/O's asap to the lhs. They (the C&T pilots) have now not made ANY of these guys available for their final checkout with LESS than 12 months of training!
It's the old 'divide and conquer' vs the 'constant dripping of water weareth away the stone' battle.
It's the old 'divide and conquer' vs the 'constant dripping of water weareth away the stone' battle.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: N. America
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
St Paul's,
I agree with your comment about ALPA members being bound to uphold an IFALPA request, and I would certainly do so if I belonged to an ALPA organization. At the company I worked at prior to my present one, we attempted to join ALPA, but were rebuffed due to being just shy of the amount of pilots required. Hopefully you can see the irony here.
You speak of postponing employment at CX for a few weeks, like it was a dentist's appointment or something. Seeing as how the roots of the problems go back over eight years I somehow doubt it wil be over in a few weeks. And exactly what wording should an applicant use when the recruiter calls with a job offer?
Perhaps there are some out there who are fortunate to have been made several competing employment offers by major airlines. But I think the reality for most is that an opportunity at CX is a once in a lifetime chance. In essence the ban is asking prospective applicants to sacrifice their careers, to help preserve those of others. Kind of a tall order don't you think??
I agree with your comment about ALPA members being bound to uphold an IFALPA request, and I would certainly do so if I belonged to an ALPA organization. At the company I worked at prior to my present one, we attempted to join ALPA, but were rebuffed due to being just shy of the amount of pilots required. Hopefully you can see the irony here.
You speak of postponing employment at CX for a few weeks, like it was a dentist's appointment or something. Seeing as how the roots of the problems go back over eight years I somehow doubt it wil be over in a few weeks. And exactly what wording should an applicant use when the recruiter calls with a job offer?
Perhaps there are some out there who are fortunate to have been made several competing employment offers by major airlines. But I think the reality for most is that an opportunity at CX is a once in a lifetime chance. In essence the ban is asking prospective applicants to sacrifice their careers, to help preserve those of others. Kind of a tall order don't you think??