Any Good opinions of Cathay??
good luck to all you 'new joiners' be it fair or not you're going to have to live your entire 'career' in CX with everyone above you in seniority not seeing things your way.....and it can get awfully lonely talking to yourself for 15 hours! the message from ialpa is very clear ..stay away until this mess is sorted out and when you do get hired the sacrifices the men and women are making here and now for a square deal will be written in stone on YOUR contracts.
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Kaptin M - in hand. As I said, it is hardly the only thing happening. Find a CX pilot wearing his/her yellow ribbon at the airport and ask them.
Peter Z, and others with a scheduling problem - most employers require three months notice. That should be adequate. CX is desperate for pilots yesterday. If they threaten you with use it or lose it, they're not going to follow through. This is not a once in a lifetime opportunity, it's not even a career. We're changing that. If CX threaten you now, before you even have a job, how do you think you'll be treated later?
Maybe the timing for you is lousy. That's tough. If it's the worst thing to happen in your life, you're pretty lucky, so handle it, ok? Don't treat the IFALPA ban lightly, this is a serious struggle. If you join now you will be used by management who will then discard you if that suits their interests. They have no care for anyone, least of all a new joiner. Don't get into that position.
I'd better get off this topic as I'm going to have my asterisks (*****) thwacked. We have shown admirable discipline in staying off this forum for nearly three months, and here I am shooting my mouth off. The message is still serious, so don't take our silence for saying we don't care. Expect this message to be "buried" by the standard CX management stooges and haters, BTW. Can't help that. Every reader on PPRuNe knows who they are and ignores them anyway, I'm sure you're no different.
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: St_Paul_Island ]
Peter Z, and others with a scheduling problem - most employers require three months notice. That should be adequate. CX is desperate for pilots yesterday. If they threaten you with use it or lose it, they're not going to follow through. This is not a once in a lifetime opportunity, it's not even a career. We're changing that. If CX threaten you now, before you even have a job, how do you think you'll be treated later?
Maybe the timing for you is lousy. That's tough. If it's the worst thing to happen in your life, you're pretty lucky, so handle it, ok? Don't treat the IFALPA ban lightly, this is a serious struggle. If you join now you will be used by management who will then discard you if that suits their interests. They have no care for anyone, least of all a new joiner. Don't get into that position.
I'd better get off this topic as I'm going to have my asterisks (*****) thwacked. We have shown admirable discipline in staying off this forum for nearly three months, and here I am shooting my mouth off. The message is still serious, so don't take our silence for saying we don't care. Expect this message to be "buried" by the standard CX management stooges and haters, BTW. Can't help that. Every reader on PPRuNe knows who they are and ignores them anyway, I'm sure you're no different.
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: St_Paul_Island ]
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St. Paul's,
I can't help but admire your earnestness, but I really can't abide the preaching about "if it's the worst thing to happen in your life, you're pretty lucky, so handle it, ok?"
I've had far worse things happen in my life than lose out on a job opportunity. More importantly, far worse than being threatened by unionists, or being "shunned" by my peers. Bear in mind that many of those peers would also be recruits. Your own recruitment ban will end up dividing you into two camps. You could welcome new recruits and invite them to fully support the AOA, instead you are only hardening the resolve of many to pursue what for many is a long-held goal.
I could echo your exact comments back to you: "Maybe the timing for you is lousy. That's tough." I've asked this before, but why exactly should applicants to CX sacrifice their goals for yours?
My support is for the AOA to achieve results, but you had better Hurry Up. The "go slow" has not exactly brought the company to its knees.
I can't help but admire your earnestness, but I really can't abide the preaching about "if it's the worst thing to happen in your life, you're pretty lucky, so handle it, ok?"
I've had far worse things happen in my life than lose out on a job opportunity. More importantly, far worse than being threatened by unionists, or being "shunned" by my peers. Bear in mind that many of those peers would also be recruits. Your own recruitment ban will end up dividing you into two camps. You could welcome new recruits and invite them to fully support the AOA, instead you are only hardening the resolve of many to pursue what for many is a long-held goal.
I could echo your exact comments back to you: "Maybe the timing for you is lousy. That's tough." I've asked this before, but why exactly should applicants to CX sacrifice their goals for yours?
My support is for the AOA to achieve results, but you had better Hurry Up. The "go slow" has not exactly brought the company to its knees.
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411A, I would really hate to think I'm somehow endorsing any of your twisted views. You, inexplicably, seem only want to see the CX pilot group suffer.
On the other hand, I have no desire to undermine the AOA - I have friends in it for god's sake! I simply am not convinced that applicants refusing positions will somehow gain the AOA some leverage. A nice gesture, to be sure, but exceedingly expensive.
On the other hand, I have no desire to undermine the AOA - I have friends in it for god's sake! I simply am not convinced that applicants refusing positions will somehow gain the AOA some leverage. A nice gesture, to be sure, but exceedingly expensive.
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PeterZee--
You are quite right...it will NOT help "their" cause one little bit.
Do you not find it strange that they, as a collective group, want YOU to carry their excess baggage, when they are not willing to do so? Wake UP, son. They wave the...."do not join" banner....and at the same time, you can bet your boots that they are accepting upgrades to fill the terminated ones' shoes.
The airline business is dog eat dog, and the sooner you realise this, the better.
Up to you though, in the end. Best of luck with your application. CX WILL survive, with or without the co-operation of the present flight crew members.
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]
You are quite right...it will NOT help "their" cause one little bit.
Do you not find it strange that they, as a collective group, want YOU to carry their excess baggage, when they are not willing to do so? Wake UP, son. They wave the...."do not join" banner....and at the same time, you can bet your boots that they are accepting upgrades to fill the terminated ones' shoes.
The airline business is dog eat dog, and the sooner you realise this, the better.
Up to you though, in the end. Best of luck with your application. CX WILL survive, with or without the co-operation of the present flight crew members.
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]
[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]
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frankg,
Your implication amongst other things, including bullying intimidation of potential new hires, that C&T pilots will be out to get them is a cowardly copout. C&T pilots are in a position of trust to do their duties fairly and without favour. If they are unable to do this because of "political considerations" they are unworthy of the position.
Instead of asking the new hires to make a sacrifice while you continue to be comfortably employed why not ask your C&T colleagies to refuse to train them? What do you think they would do?
That is quite a different matter from victimising a competent person by unfairly handicapping and assessing their performance based on prejudice.
This is a similar tactic to that used in '89 when some C&T pilots threatened junior pilots to "get even" if they returned.
Don't accuse the new hires of being scabs you unspeakable cowards.
Your implication amongst other things, including bullying intimidation of potential new hires, that C&T pilots will be out to get them is a cowardly copout. C&T pilots are in a position of trust to do their duties fairly and without favour. If they are unable to do this because of "political considerations" they are unworthy of the position.
Instead of asking the new hires to make a sacrifice while you continue to be comfortably employed why not ask your C&T colleagies to refuse to train them? What do you think they would do?
That is quite a different matter from victimising a competent person by unfairly handicapping and assessing their performance based on prejudice.
This is a similar tactic to that used in '89 when some C&T pilots threatened junior pilots to "get even" if they returned.
Don't accuse the new hires of being scabs you unspeakable cowards.
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All things considered, it seems obvious that if I get a chance I must wait until after the dispute is resolved. Hurry up then, and don't blame those who have taken a job there already since you say they are unwitting pawns. They just want what you wanted and have. They are just like you and you may be acting just like the guys your are fighting.
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Flat side....just where in FrankG's post does he imply that C&T personnel will 'be out to get' scabs.....??? And as for 'comfortable employment', this is a typical comment from someone who has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA as to what things are REALLY like at CX at the moment. Your comment about 'unspeakable coward' is so uncalled for that your judgement has to be seriously questioned. It is 'unspeakably frightening' that someone as emotional and unable to comment on the FACTS (which you obviously know nothing about...although on this forum you are in good company) would have ANY opportunity to work for ANY major airline. It is post's such as yours that has resulted in the CX pilots opening their own forum, as it was becoming pointless arguing with idiots such as yourself (why try, as you would only drag us down to your level and then beat us with experience...!).
You and a few misguided others will probably be quite happy to have your chance at the supposed 'holy grail' of flying the 'heavy metal' (as if that is more important than having job security and proper pay, rostering and benefits on which to raise a family in some semblance of security), and do so at the expense of 50 of our colleagues who are FAR more deserving of getting their jobs back than YOU are at replacing them. The C&T members of CX may not be contemptuous of you...but myself and the other 1400 pilots certainly will. I suggest you allow us to fight our battle unimpeded by the incessant 'braying' of those on the outside who can't see beyond their own selfish aims. I would prefer to not bother with this forum, but your rude and vicous (and illinformed) comments could not go unanswered.
You and a few misguided others will probably be quite happy to have your chance at the supposed 'holy grail' of flying the 'heavy metal' (as if that is more important than having job security and proper pay, rostering and benefits on which to raise a family in some semblance of security), and do so at the expense of 50 of our colleagues who are FAR more deserving of getting their jobs back than YOU are at replacing them. The C&T members of CX may not be contemptuous of you...but myself and the other 1400 pilots certainly will. I suggest you allow us to fight our battle unimpeded by the incessant 'braying' of those on the outside who can't see beyond their own selfish aims. I would prefer to not bother with this forum, but your rude and vicous (and illinformed) comments could not go unanswered.
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The AOA has on several occasions referred to CX management as "arrogant". It would seem it takes one to know one. If you can't stand the "incessant braying" why are you slumming here with the unwashed masses?
If you have followed this forum for any length of time, you will know that I have been a firm defender of the AOA. But comments of the type you have posted are slowly beginning to erode the support. There are numerous applicants I have been in contact with, who are sorely concerned about the same issues you are - surely you can understand that all serious applicants have a vested interest in the company! Why you would want to make enemies of prospective joiners is beyond me.
The action has already victimized enough innocent people. The travelling public and the families of the sacked, especially, come to mind. If you think people who have worked and waited for a long time for their "card" to come to the top of the pile, will sit idly by and become the latest group of victims, you've been in the ivory towers too long.
Conditions at CX are bad at this time. But many, many pilots come from jobs/rostering/pay that are far worse. That's a reality, not rhetoric. It's like telling someone living in the middle of a civil war not to come to New York, the crime's pretty bad.
The AOA can try to intimidate people from joining, and may succeed to some degree. But then the recruits who inevitably come will then truly be the mercenaries, which surely can't be the objective sought. Seeme to me a more pragmatic approach would be to welcome newcomers to join the fight.
Lastly, where do you get off characterising prospective applicants as having "selfish aims"?! The obvious hypocrisy aside (you wanted to join once), you can't seriously be suggesting the current industrial dispute is based on altruistic principles!
Smile y'all!
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: PeterZee ]
If you have followed this forum for any length of time, you will know that I have been a firm defender of the AOA. But comments of the type you have posted are slowly beginning to erode the support. There are numerous applicants I have been in contact with, who are sorely concerned about the same issues you are - surely you can understand that all serious applicants have a vested interest in the company! Why you would want to make enemies of prospective joiners is beyond me.
The action has already victimized enough innocent people. The travelling public and the families of the sacked, especially, come to mind. If you think people who have worked and waited for a long time for their "card" to come to the top of the pile, will sit idly by and become the latest group of victims, you've been in the ivory towers too long.
Conditions at CX are bad at this time. But many, many pilots come from jobs/rostering/pay that are far worse. That's a reality, not rhetoric. It's like telling someone living in the middle of a civil war not to come to New York, the crime's pretty bad.
The AOA can try to intimidate people from joining, and may succeed to some degree. But then the recruits who inevitably come will then truly be the mercenaries, which surely can't be the objective sought. Seeme to me a more pragmatic approach would be to welcome newcomers to join the fight.
Lastly, where do you get off characterising prospective applicants as having "selfish aims"?! The obvious hypocrisy aside (you wanted to join once), you can't seriously be suggesting the current industrial dispute is based on altruistic principles!
Smile y'all!
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: PeterZee ]
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water check,
Quote from frankg
>There are over 1300 members of the AOA, C&T among them, think about that during your first trip!<
Certainly an implication in that statement. I notice you still use the term scab in your own post and many others of your ilk have referred to new joiners as scabs.
You remain in comfortable employment,not entirely to your complete satisfaction no doubt, but a damn sight more secure and comfortable than those at the bottom of the heap and certainly better off than your 50 colleagues whose jobs have been sacrificed on the altar of AOA.
Your assumptions of my aspirations are a long way off the mark. My unspeakable cowards remark still applies to those who have sought to bully and intimidate those at the bottom of the scale and to whom many of you have assigned the label...scab.
You know where you can insert your precious "holy grail"
Fight your own fight instead of downloading it onto others.
Quote from frankg
>There are over 1300 members of the AOA, C&T among them, think about that during your first trip!<
Certainly an implication in that statement. I notice you still use the term scab in your own post and many others of your ilk have referred to new joiners as scabs.
You remain in comfortable employment,not entirely to your complete satisfaction no doubt, but a damn sight more secure and comfortable than those at the bottom of the heap and certainly better off than your 50 colleagues whose jobs have been sacrificed on the altar of AOA.
Your assumptions of my aspirations are a long way off the mark. My unspeakable cowards remark still applies to those who have sought to bully and intimidate those at the bottom of the scale and to whom many of you have assigned the label...scab.
You know where you can insert your precious "holy grail"
Fight your own fight instead of downloading it onto others.
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Gents I do not bother posting here very often prefering to use our own site at Cathay, however I feel that I must say the following to anyone contemplating joining CX at this time DON"T . Claim a 3 month notice period being required before you can move. To date 4 guys on ground school conversion have quit because they do not wish to be labeled."Scabs"
Cathay is desperate for crew right now and are talking of hiring 350 pilots in the near future. If they cannot get them now they will have to recruit at a later date. The jobs will still be there in the near future so do yourself a favour and stay away for the time being. This should all be over in 3 months.
If you are in any doubt about how high feelings are running right now Don't be . All of this is obviously your decision to make, but trust me when I say to you that anyone joining CX now, is going to have an awful time of it for as long as we are here. To be the social outcast on every flight, every night stop is no fun, but that is the reality. You will be an outcast forever. If that is how you wish to live out your aviation career then join by all means.
The jobs will still be there in 3-4 months , very few people are joining right now and as I said those that have, subsequently resigned.
I am not asking anyone to fight our fight for us , we are doing that for ourselves and for those who will be joining in the future. Thereby enabling all new joiners to have a decent contract that you can rely on, and once again turning this airline back into a career airline
Do not join in the hope that this will go away in time it won't!!!
You have been counselled Make your decision very carefully..
For those of you who think that flying big shiny jets is the ultimate, it is but the novelty wears off. When constant changes to your roster destroy your home life. You end up in an empty flat in HK looking at 4 walls wondering what has become of your life. That is what we are fighting for a stable roster so that we can have a life outside the company. To date I have 16 changes to my published roster. Fortunately I have a very understanding wife but even her patience is wearing out. To make plans for a night out with friends only to have them cancelled by the company is okay for a while but after 8 years it is becoming very tedious
Think very seriously before you commit to a life as an outcast YOU WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN
Cathay is desperate for crew right now and are talking of hiring 350 pilots in the near future. If they cannot get them now they will have to recruit at a later date. The jobs will still be there in the near future so do yourself a favour and stay away for the time being. This should all be over in 3 months.
If you are in any doubt about how high feelings are running right now Don't be . All of this is obviously your decision to make, but trust me when I say to you that anyone joining CX now, is going to have an awful time of it for as long as we are here. To be the social outcast on every flight, every night stop is no fun, but that is the reality. You will be an outcast forever. If that is how you wish to live out your aviation career then join by all means.
The jobs will still be there in 3-4 months , very few people are joining right now and as I said those that have, subsequently resigned.
I am not asking anyone to fight our fight for us , we are doing that for ourselves and for those who will be joining in the future. Thereby enabling all new joiners to have a decent contract that you can rely on, and once again turning this airline back into a career airline
Do not join in the hope that this will go away in time it won't!!!
You have been counselled Make your decision very carefully..
For those of you who think that flying big shiny jets is the ultimate, it is but the novelty wears off. When constant changes to your roster destroy your home life. You end up in an empty flat in HK looking at 4 walls wondering what has become of your life. That is what we are fighting for a stable roster so that we can have a life outside the company. To date I have 16 changes to my published roster. Fortunately I have a very understanding wife but even her patience is wearing out. To make plans for a night out with friends only to have them cancelled by the company is okay for a while but after 8 years it is becoming very tedious
Think very seriously before you commit to a life as an outcast YOU WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN
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I have flown on Chinese carriers (not by choice) on five occasions of late and surprised to find that they improved as the time went by. The first flight was actually quite bad but by the last flight I was on they had gotten their act togethr.
Are they as good as CX, without a doubt NO.
Can they be as good in time with the apprpriate training and, I dare say yes.
Many like myself who would never have considered any Chinese airline may be more willing to give them some business.
Needless to say that this disruption has caused me some difficulties these past few weeks and I hope now that the HK Govt. opens it's doors to some of these airlines in order to avoid the same problems the travelling public has experienced.
CX and the AOA can fight all they want, all I am concerned about is that your fight does not spill over to the innocent ones...the passenger!
Are they as good as CX, without a doubt NO.
Can they be as good in time with the apprpriate training and, I dare say yes.
Many like myself who would never have considered any Chinese airline may be more willing to give them some business.
Needless to say that this disruption has caused me some difficulties these past few weeks and I hope now that the HK Govt. opens it's doors to some of these airlines in order to avoid the same problems the travelling public has experienced.
CX and the AOA can fight all they want, all I am concerned about is that your fight does not spill over to the innocent ones...the passenger!
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Diamond Member, do you take CX because service is better than the other airlines or that you KNOW the flight is safer. I think when you compare service, there shouldn't even be a comparison.
But of course, CX are somewhat inconvenienced at this time, and I personally value my life.
Quick question. Concerning pilot skills. I no doubt in my mind will say CX pilots are one of the best, but would that be of a differ were it not the SOP that you follow? Just curious.
But of course, CX are somewhat inconvenienced at this time, and I personally value my life.
Quick question. Concerning pilot skills. I no doubt in my mind will say CX pilots are one of the best, but would that be of a differ were it not the SOP that you follow? Just curious.
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correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the scab moniker by definition require performing "struck" work?
if so, (and I do believe it's so) this threat to all CX new hires about the rest of their life blah, blah, blah, is poppycock, as either there is a strike or not, plain and simple.
but if that were true, the current roster would have to be admonishing themselves and not socializing with each other on night stops?
tin hats ON!
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: sojourn ]
if so, (and I do believe it's so) this threat to all CX new hires about the rest of their life blah, blah, blah, is poppycock, as either there is a strike or not, plain and simple.
but if that were true, the current roster would have to be admonishing themselves and not socializing with each other on night stops?
tin hats ON!
[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: sojourn ]
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frankg,
Get it clear in your mind. I do not seek to join CX. Why do people leap to assumptions so readily? However I am appalled at your arrogance and inconsistency in asking new joiners to make sacrifices you yourselves are not prepared to make.
No doubt you were successful in intimidating three of the four new joiners. Those three can now cross off any hope of ever joining CX when this is over thanks to your efforts. That reduces their options considerably in relation to others. Should they be grateful to you for that?
Meanwhile you and your ilk will cheerfully accept upgrades to fill the vacancy left by your colleagues.
My previous remarks stand.
Get it clear in your mind. I do not seek to join CX. Why do people leap to assumptions so readily? However I am appalled at your arrogance and inconsistency in asking new joiners to make sacrifices you yourselves are not prepared to make.
No doubt you were successful in intimidating three of the four new joiners. Those three can now cross off any hope of ever joining CX when this is over thanks to your efforts. That reduces their options considerably in relation to others. Should they be grateful to you for that?
Meanwhile you and your ilk will cheerfully accept upgrades to fill the vacancy left by your colleagues.
My previous remarks stand.
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No frank, it does mean something to us idiots, that's why we've been trying to get some answers and discussion. And I should think you would understand, most people making decisions of this magnitude would try to gather as much information as possible beforehand.
Understandably, this is a stressful, emotional time for all concerned, and that is probably colouring everyone's outlook.
Good luck. Really.
Understandably, this is a stressful, emotional time for all concerned, and that is probably colouring everyone's outlook.
Good luck. Really.
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>>>>You know what, I'm outta here. I came to this forum to try and pass on the message that there was an IFALPA ban at CX. Obviously it means nothing to you lot. I'm tired of arguing with idiots.<<<<
frank, frank, frank,
no arguing please, but...
please tell us why the ban would label new hires @ CX as scabs when they aren't flying struck work, as in all other definitions?
frank, frank, frank,
no arguing please, but...
please tell us why the ban would label new hires @ CX as scabs when they aren't flying struck work, as in all other definitions?