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Never forget what it was like when you were a student.
And when you get to be a Commander never forget what it was like to be a Sub Lieutenant in the right hand seat.
And when you get to be a Commander never forget what it was like to be a Sub Lieutenant in the right hand seat.
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Guys, I agree with both of you. Instruction is for people who want to teach and, at the same time, to learn. That is the best part, because you gain experience (not talking about the hours), but it also demands sacrifice. BUT ...
You can't say a 'hour builder' is going to be a bad instructor
my VFR instructor was 22, started the FI course a year and a half after finished his ATPL training and I put my hands on fire he was one of the best instructors in my flight school. His intentions were to build time AND teach! And he did it very well. Of course, there is the opposite side, and I agree with what you said but there are exceptions as I said.
So and if someone is now working on his/her job, to earn some money because they don't have to do a FI course, it will take a while, right? You can't discriminate someone until you know the real reasons for that brake, You have to pay for your rating, and if someone is working towards a FI course, would you say that person is not keen with instruction?
LAI, great post !
You can't say a 'hour builder' is going to be a bad instructor
my VFR instructor was 22, started the FI course a year and a half after finished his ATPL training and I put my hands on fire he was one of the best instructors in my flight school. His intentions were to build time AND teach! And he did it very well. Of course, there is the opposite side, and I agree with what you said but there are exceptions as I said.
Personally I would never employ and instructor who had an IR or hadn't done the instructors course straight after teh CPL IR
LAI, great post !
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I'm an FI who's never had aspirations outside of instructing. While that might resonate well with some of the posters here, I'm very aware that FIs like me are limited in some respects by having no line flying or operational experience. Perhaps it's not needed in elementary flying training but some of the ppl students with commercial aspirations would benefit from being around a "proper" pilot. So the "career instructor" is not the panacea of instruction.
And for the OP's benefit...the optimum situation for an FI is to be part-time and have another job to pay the bills. I couldn't do this full-time and pay the bills. I have to say that of all the things I've ever done (BSc, PhD, CPL, IR, and the rest), the FI course has easily been the most satisfying, challenging, gratifying and fun course I've ever done. Just don't rely on the qualification to pay a living wage (I average 15 hours a month as a part-timer).
Good luck!
And for the OP's benefit...the optimum situation for an FI is to be part-time and have another job to pay the bills. I couldn't do this full-time and pay the bills. I have to say that of all the things I've ever done (BSc, PhD, CPL, IR, and the rest), the FI course has easily been the most satisfying, challenging, gratifying and fun course I've ever done. Just don't rely on the qualification to pay a living wage (I average 15 hours a month as a part-timer).
Good luck!
I'm very aware that FIs like me are limited in some respects by having no line flying or operational experience.
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IM why should a FI have any experence line flying?
Thats not what your teaching. You teaching them to look out the window trim the aircraft and get from A to B and deal with any emergencys on the way.
Thats not what your teaching. You teaching them to look out the window trim the aircraft and get from A to B and deal with any emergencys on the way.
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Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons I changed flying schools 11hours into my ppl from an international airport based school to a local members flying club where I was instructed from an ex ba captain and a lady pilot both ultimate professionals.i am now 43 hours in and waiting to sit my skills test.At the first school I had hour building pilots teaching me and it was a new instructor nearly every other flight and I seemed to be getting nowhere and wasn't at solo standard when I changed schools,every lesson felt rushed and there was very little pre flight briefing.within 4hours at the new school I soloed then went from strength to strength with every lesson because of the dedicated passion my instructors had for flying and their teaching ability,so in my view as a student if you aren't dedicated to the teaching aspect of the fi rating please don't be another hour building fatpl just taking students hard earned money from them because it's a pricey enough career as it is without the added expense of students throwing their money at crap teaching:
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I'm sure you didn't want to Instruct forever. Why did you become an instructor? Answer Honestly now
Actually some do, like me who has a successful business and wanted nothing more than to instruct.
bose-x and MJ are spot on this subject and their comments sum up this game 100%.
Of course there are many excellent airline pilot instructors in GA, but the passion was there from the begining, not as a desperate last resort because the plan A failed. If Instructing was not in your overall game plan for a flying career, please please stay away.
If you compare GA with the other instructing such as microlights you we see the evidence. Microlight instructors I know earn 30 - 40K a year BECAUSE THEY ARE NO HOUR BUILDERS WHO HAVE PUSHED INSTRUCTOR PAY AND CONDITIONS DOWN , AND THEY THEREFORE EARN A REASONABLE HOURLY RATE.
Actually some do, like me who has a successful business and wanted nothing more than to instruct.
bose-x and MJ are spot on this subject and their comments sum up this game 100%.
Of course there are many excellent airline pilot instructors in GA, but the passion was there from the begining, not as a desperate last resort because the plan A failed. If Instructing was not in your overall game plan for a flying career, please please stay away.
If you compare GA with the other instructing such as microlights you we see the evidence. Microlight instructors I know earn 30 - 40K a year BECAUSE THEY ARE NO HOUR BUILDERS WHO HAVE PUSHED INSTRUCTOR PAY AND CONDITIONS DOWN , AND THEY THEREFORE EARN A REASONABLE HOURLY RATE.
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Hi all,
I don't post on here a lot but after reading this brilliant thread I decided to take the plunge with my 2 cents worth.
I've had my fATPL for two years now and I've had no luck at all on the job front, like many others as well.
Like a lot of guys I've got a huge passion for Flying and Aviation in general, I've only got 300hrs so the industry is still very new to me and I'm still learning, I had to do the MEP/IR first, like most I really didn't fancy doing all those exams again and not to mention the money problems along the way.
Other pilots always ask me what am I going to do, go to this airline or that airline or bush fly etc etc etc but the truth is I just love Flying and all I want is to make some sort of a living out of it at the end of the day.
The only thing that has really appealed to me since passing the CPL/IR is doing the Instructors Course, after reading this thread now that's exactly what I'm going to do.
Over the last year I feel I've been like a dog chasing my own tail
but this thread has really inspired me to finally go out and take the plunge, I find it really difficult to try and express my passion and enthusiasm in writing but for those who can a massive thumbs up.
After reading a lot of posts on here this one has really made me think what I love about Flying, when I think back I can relate to a lot of things you guys said about being an instructor, all the ones I've had I looked up to them as gods in my early training and without doubt when I look back, learning to Fly for my PPL has been the best experience in all of my Flight Training to date.
I know as a PPL instructor I won't make a huge ammount of money, it's never been about getting the hours in for me, I just want to Fly for some sort of a living and maybe after a few years I may want to go down the commercial instruction route, I just hope that I will be able to bring that passion over to my students when it finally happens and be able to inspire them as I was.
Great thread guys, all the best
SB001
I don't post on here a lot but after reading this brilliant thread
I decided to take the plunge with my 2 cents worth.I've had my fATPL for two years now and I've had no luck at all on the job front, like many others as well.
Like a lot of guys I've got a huge passion for Flying and Aviation in general, I've only got 300hrs so the industry is still very new to me and I'm still learning, I had to do the MEP/IR first, like most I really didn't fancy doing all those exams again and not to mention the money problems along the way.
Other pilots always ask me what am I going to do, go to this airline or that airline or bush fly etc etc etc but the truth is I just love Flying and all I want is to make some sort of a living out of it at the end of the day.
The only thing that has really appealed to me since passing the CPL/IR is doing the Instructors Course, after reading this thread now that's exactly what I'm going to do.
Over the last year I feel I've been like a dog chasing my own tail
but this thread has really inspired me to finally go out and take the plunge, I find it really difficult to try and express my passion and enthusiasm in writing but for those who can a massive thumbs up.After reading a lot of posts on here this one has really made me think what I love about Flying, when I think back I can relate to a lot of things you guys said about being an instructor, all the ones I've had I looked up to them as gods in my early training and without doubt when I look back, learning to Fly for my PPL has been the best experience in all of my Flight Training to date.
I know as a PPL instructor I won't make a huge ammount of money, it's never been about getting the hours in for me, I just want to Fly for some sort of a living and maybe after a few years I may want to go down the commercial instruction route, I just hope that I will be able to bring that passion over to my students when it finally happens and be able to inspire them as I was.
Great thread guys, all the best
SB001
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Aware, the main reason Microlight instructors get paid more is that the competition isn't as fierce and the cost of running a Microlight and the associated school is very much smaller allowing for reasonable margin to run the business and yes the people who are doing it tend to be the owner of the business so the staff overheads are lower. I'm not saying Microlights aren't brilliant - they are but it's not as one dimensional as that.
The commercial pressure on a flying school to be "as cheap as possible" is very strong and the only place you can reduce cost to maintain competitiveness is to pressure the FIs. It's a vicious circle. That said at my old school the concept was that we would have as few FIs as we could get away with so that they could have as many hours as possible. They fly now between 900 and 1200 hours a year and get paid a reasonable wage.
I-M I'm not sure I think an instructor needs to have flown commercially but a wide and varied experience beyond tommies, C150/2 etc etc and plenty of cross country flying and ****t-hot handling skills makes for the best guys. For me the best instructors I ever had were former fast jet military instructors who had seen just about everything.
The commercial pressure on a flying school to be "as cheap as possible" is very strong and the only place you can reduce cost to maintain competitiveness is to pressure the FIs. It's a vicious circle. That said at my old school the concept was that we would have as few FIs as we could get away with so that they could have as many hours as possible. They fly now between 900 and 1200 hours a year and get paid a reasonable wage.
I-M I'm not sure I think an instructor needs to have flown commercially but a wide and varied experience beyond tommies, C150/2 etc etc and plenty of cross country flying and ****t-hot handling skills makes for the best guys. For me the best instructors I ever had were former fast jet military instructors who had seen just about everything.
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Is it really impossible to imagine that some people might want to pursue an airline career and be passionate about instructing??
I like most other people on here have spent several years and 1000's of pounds pursuing my dream (blah blah blah!). When I started out I really had no intention of becoming an instructor. However, as I have matured both as a pilot and an individual I have realised that it would immensly fulfilling to pass on what I have learnt to somebody else.
It's not a secret (or a crime) that one day I would like to join an airline. However in reality that is probably still a few years away. There's no way realistically I can afford the £80k it would cost me to reach the golden 1000 hour mark. In the meantime I want to continue learning and developing whilst helping others do the same.
During my time I have been taught by all flavours of instructors (Life time instructors/hour builders/retired-part time instructors) I don't think I have ever come across somebody who wasn't passionate about what they do and all of them have different pros/cons. A least somebody fresh out of the CPL/IR trail is still in touch with the modern generation of trainee pilot, with an appreciation of the cost and impact it has on the rest of your life. Rather than just treating you as a commercial asset or a way of funding the flying school christmas party.
I hope that that as a new instructor I can pass on my experience (no matter how much that might be) and learn from my students and peers. I also hope that I can maintain a level of respect for any fellow pilot regardless of where the want to take their flying in the future. If I only end instructing for 12 months then so be it, but I will approach it with the same attitude as I have with everything else and make it a success. I hope that it is something I will be able to continue to do alongside my future career, or something that I can return to in time.
Whatever happens I am fed up of being told that I can't build experience and be a good instructor. Wake up and realise that the aviation industry has changed in the last 30 years!
I like most other people on here have spent several years and 1000's of pounds pursuing my dream (blah blah blah!). When I started out I really had no intention of becoming an instructor. However, as I have matured both as a pilot and an individual I have realised that it would immensly fulfilling to pass on what I have learnt to somebody else.
It's not a secret (or a crime) that one day I would like to join an airline. However in reality that is probably still a few years away. There's no way realistically I can afford the £80k it would cost me to reach the golden 1000 hour mark. In the meantime I want to continue learning and developing whilst helping others do the same.
During my time I have been taught by all flavours of instructors (Life time instructors/hour builders/retired-part time instructors) I don't think I have ever come across somebody who wasn't passionate about what they do and all of them have different pros/cons. A least somebody fresh out of the CPL/IR trail is still in touch with the modern generation of trainee pilot, with an appreciation of the cost and impact it has on the rest of your life. Rather than just treating you as a commercial asset or a way of funding the flying school christmas party.
I hope that that as a new instructor I can pass on my experience (no matter how much that might be) and learn from my students and peers. I also hope that I can maintain a level of respect for any fellow pilot regardless of where the want to take their flying in the future. If I only end instructing for 12 months then so be it, but I will approach it with the same attitude as I have with everything else and make it a success. I hope that it is something I will be able to continue to do alongside my future career, or something that I can return to in time.
Whatever happens I am fed up of being told that I can't build experience and be a good instructor. Wake up and realise that the aviation industry has changed in the last 30 years!
Why have a pop at someone wanting to instruct to build hours to then get an airline job when not long ago it was the main way to go from BCPL to CPL? ie 700 hrs.
When I learn't to fly, ever single instructor I had was building hours to move on. They may not have seen instructing as their calling in life but they adpated to it, acted professionally and seemed to enjoy it.
If you are going down the Ryanair/Easy/pay-for-your-type rating route, then FI will mean next to nothing. But there are still oufits that appreciate FI experience such as Eastern, flybe and many corporate/air taxi operators. You can also tick the 'in current flying practice' box rather than have to stump up for aircraft hire yourself.
When I learn't to fly, ever single instructor I had was building hours to move on. They may not have seen instructing as their calling in life but they adpated to it, acted professionally and seemed to enjoy it.
If you are going down the Ryanair/Easy/pay-for-your-type rating route, then FI will mean next to nothing. But there are still oufits that appreciate FI experience such as Eastern, flybe and many corporate/air taxi operators. You can also tick the 'in current flying practice' box rather than have to stump up for aircraft hire yourself.
I'm sure you didn't want to Instruct forever. Why did you become an instructor? Answer Honestly now
How can you be so sure? Would you say the same thing to a school teacher/driving isntructor/diving instructor etc etc? That they must only be doing it because they couldn't get a "proper" job?
I've been instructing and examining for 22 years and 11,000 hours because it is a career path I deliberately chose, not because nothing "better" came along. If you do the job well you can make a good living out of it. If you just want to milk students to fill up your log book, don't expect to get any satisfaction out of it. And don't think that won't be glaringly obvious in a job interview.
Not all of us want to fly shiny jets, I think it would be a horrible way to make a living and I know a lot of people who have gone down that path and wish they hadn't, for career, family and financial reasons.
And I certanly didn't get into this career because of any emotive sentiments like "love" "dream" and "passion" which belong in people's love lives, not their professional lives!
How can you be so sure? Would you say the same thing to a school teacher/driving isntructor/diving instructor etc etc? That they must only be doing it because they couldn't get a "proper" job?
I've been instructing and examining for 22 years and 11,000 hours because it is a career path I deliberately chose, not because nothing "better" came along. If you do the job well you can make a good living out of it. If you just want to milk students to fill up your log book, don't expect to get any satisfaction out of it. And don't think that won't be glaringly obvious in a job interview.
Not all of us want to fly shiny jets, I think it would be a horrible way to make a living and I know a lot of people who have gone down that path and wish they hadn't, for career, family and financial reasons.
And I certanly didn't get into this career because of any emotive sentiments like "love" "dream" and "passion" which belong in people's love lives, not their professional lives!
Last edited by Clare Prop; 2nd Nov 2012 at 10:18.
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If you do the job well you can make a good living out of it. If you just want to milk students to fill up your log book, don't expect to get any satisfaction out of it. And don't think that won't be glaringly obvious in a job interview.
I'd love to instruct but just see how it can be viable unless doing you're wealthy enough not to need the money, or doing it part time alongside a better paying job. Unfortunatley job satisfaction does not pay the bills!
Last edited by taxistaxing; 2nd Nov 2012 at 10:35.
I instructed in Europe before I moved out here and yes I did have not one but three other jobs to keep the roof over my head whilst gaining early experience.
My point though is that if you want to make a career out of it you can, it doesn't have to be just a means to an end. You just have to work very hard to get established in the early stages as do people in many other professions.
And it is often the people with "drems, love and passion" who keep the wages down!
My point though is that if you want to make a career out of it you can, it doesn't have to be just a means to an end. You just have to work very hard to get established in the early stages as do people in many other professions.
And it is often the people with "drems, love and passion" who keep the wages down!
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its changed as well with this EASa stuff, there are effectively walls within the experence requirements which would make it extremely hard and expensive to jump over to remain in instructing through out your career and progress beyon PPL level instructing without having gone and done a bit of commercial flying before returning.
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I have a confession to make: I had no intension of instructing when I got my CPL ticket, I just looked at the FI job for hour building and I was quite nervous when starting my FI career that I was going the wrong way 
However, I said to myself since my students are paying a lot of money for the lessons, then they deserve a dedicated and enthusiastic, professional instructor. I took my job very seriously and after taking a few highly motivated people from 0 hours to first solo and beyond and seeing them achieve their goals, my view on the FI job changed. I highly enjoy teaching people to fly and sharing my experience with others. I've set my standards high for all my students regarding stick and rudder skills and pride myself of producing high quality pilots.
Am I going to "jump ship" and leave my FI job for an airline job if I get the chance? Yes I will. Do I regret taking the FI route? No I don't and I wouldn't want to trade my FI-hours for anything else. I have found out that instructing is a very rewarding experience and hopefully I can pass my passion of flying on to my students
However, I said to myself since my students are paying a lot of money for the lessons, then they deserve a dedicated and enthusiastic, professional instructor. I took my job very seriously and after taking a few highly motivated people from 0 hours to first solo and beyond and seeing them achieve their goals, my view on the FI job changed. I highly enjoy teaching people to fly and sharing my experience with others. I've set my standards high for all my students regarding stick and rudder skills and pride myself of producing high quality pilots.
Am I going to "jump ship" and leave my FI job for an airline job if I get the chance? Yes I will. Do I regret taking the FI route? No I don't and I wouldn't want to trade my FI-hours for anything else. I have found out that instructing is a very rewarding experience and hopefully I can pass my passion of flying on to my students
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For those of us that do want to become career instructors and who want to progress into MEP IR instruction, what kind of salary can you earn then?
I would like to think by that time you could ask for a reasonable wage of £25k surely?
Is it not true that EASA forcing schools to become ATO's will mean that any one student can only go through 3 instructors? Will this not help force schools into employing more reliable long term employees? (I may be well off the mark with this by the way!)
I would like to think by that time you could ask for a reasonable wage of £25k surely?
Is it not true that EASA forcing schools to become ATO's will mean that any one student can only go through 3 instructors? Will this not help force schools into employing more reliable long term employees? (I may be well off the mark with this by the way!)