Safety in the Balance
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Safety in the Balance
This has just been released by the UK industry, together with the CAA:
Heavy Metal front man ramps up industry loading awareness | CAA Newsroom | CAA
Intended for everyone involved in the aircraft loading process, including flight and cabin crew. Presenter's notes are also provided for guidance.
C o' G
Heavy Metal front man ramps up industry loading awareness | CAA Newsroom | CAA
Intended for everyone involved in the aircraft loading process, including flight and cabin crew. Presenter's notes are also provided for guidance.
C o' G
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Here it is guys...with our man from Iron Maiden
Very good
GHOST - Safety in the Balance Video | Publications | CAA
Very good
GHOST - Safety in the Balance Video | Publications | CAA
. I really regret my company is under Polish CAA 
advisory.
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When you watch a video like that, then add all the other things a dispatcher/trc is responsible for during a turnround you really have to shake your head in disbelief at the absolute buttons handling agents pay for that role.
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Excellent video from Bruce, though there's a few more areas that could also have been covered.... in particular:
- How LCCs handle loading policies and training of despatchers.
- The importance of thorough training cabin crew regarding checking actual seat distribution - especially on narrow bodies/Low load flights and where free seating is involved.
- How LCCs carry on luggage policies are catered for on loadsheets and or monitored by the IAA/CAA/FAA etc
AR
And seeing as how LCC's outsource the handling to 'handling agents' who provide the same service to other operators, be they flag carriers/cargo/charter etc, why is it specifically a issue for LCC operators as opposed to others ?
You need to do a little more research matey, a good number of my former colleagues in LCC ops in the UK across several airlines, are fully paid up FAA despatch license holders, some self funder others LCC company sponsored. Clearly a good number of UK/European LCC operators are far wiser to the issue than you appear to be.
How LCCs handle loading policies and training of despatchers.
And seeing as how LCC's outsource the handling to 'handling agents' who provide the same service to other operators, be they flag carriers/cargo/charter etc, why is it specifically a issue for LCC operators as opposed to others ?
You need to do a little more research matey, a good number of my former colleagues in LCC ops in the UK across several airlines, are fully paid up FAA despatch license holders, some self funder others LCC company sponsored. Clearly a good number of UK/European LCC operators are far wiser to the issue than you appear to be.
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Hi Jumpseater
Thanks for the comments, yep I'm fully aware LCCs outsource, and the skill levels of the despatchers/handling agents etc. I'm the last person to criticise that side of the equation, in fact I may even be more qualified to talk about this than a lot of people on the planet
The problem is not at that end, its how the loading policies are designed, planned and communicated. a lot of LCCs use free seating, and the loadsheet flight envelope is modified to cater for that, and there's all the seat blocking issues that we know are necessary in some cases. FR for example got Boeing to design a restricted envelope which caters for their specific ops requirements, which looks good on paper (pardon the pun) but isnt necessarily as failsafe as it seems.
This is obviously more of an issue with low loads at the bottom half of the envelope on the 738, and other variants, which always has a more restrictive c of g range at low zfw. So if FR etc encourage people not to take hold baggage, and they dont seem to make a habit of carrying freight, youre always going have less of the envelope at ZFW, and consequently less margin for error. Because it also no an exact science in this instance, the stab trim is not going to be as accurate as for example allocated seating + computerised loadsheet as the indices are not so precise. It may be unrelated, but have you noticed that instances of tailscrapes seem to be creeping up?
Theres also the issue of whether all the cabin crew are fully aware of WHY seat rows need to be blocked so its rigidly enforced, though I think FR are pretty strict on that thankfully.
Thers another issue that I cant mention here yet because its a bit too sensitive and will require a fairly major commercial decision, but I'll raise it once the CAA and the LCC concerned have come up with a good solution,
So dont worry, I'm on your side here
Thanks for the comments, yep I'm fully aware LCCs outsource, and the skill levels of the despatchers/handling agents etc. I'm the last person to criticise that side of the equation, in fact I may even be more qualified to talk about this than a lot of people on the planet
The problem is not at that end, its how the loading policies are designed, planned and communicated. a lot of LCCs use free seating, and the loadsheet flight envelope is modified to cater for that, and there's all the seat blocking issues that we know are necessary in some cases. FR for example got Boeing to design a restricted envelope which caters for their specific ops requirements, which looks good on paper (pardon the pun) but isnt necessarily as failsafe as it seems.
This is obviously more of an issue with low loads at the bottom half of the envelope on the 738, and other variants, which always has a more restrictive c of g range at low zfw. So if FR etc encourage people not to take hold baggage, and they dont seem to make a habit of carrying freight, youre always going have less of the envelope at ZFW, and consequently less margin for error. Because it also no an exact science in this instance, the stab trim is not going to be as accurate as for example allocated seating + computerised loadsheet as the indices are not so precise. It may be unrelated, but have you noticed that instances of tailscrapes seem to be creeping up?
Theres also the issue of whether all the cabin crew are fully aware of WHY seat rows need to be blocked so its rigidly enforced, though I think FR are pretty strict on that thankfully.
Thers another issue that I cant mention here yet because its a bit too sensitive and will require a fairly major commercial decision, but I'll raise it once the CAA and the LCC concerned have come up with a good solution,
So dont worry, I'm on your side here
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Regarding the issue of seat changes on board, i have had crew allow passengers to return to their original seats on board, after they have been changed for W/B purposes, because they are card holders!
I had one argue with me that we shouldnt move card holders in future. i told them thats fine, but they can just sit on the ramp all day and the card holders can enjoy the "special" seat until they realise they arent going anywhere because of them.
I had one argue with me that we shouldnt move card holders in future. i told them thats fine, but they can just sit on the ramp all day and the card holders can enjoy the "special" seat until they realise they arent going anywhere because of them.
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Hi Bigbluebroxi
I'll bet you arent the only one, its a constant battle. Did you need to get the flight deck to talk to them eventually, ? Is it the same with all carriers you handle or any in particular? thats assuming you arent flight deck...in which case ignore that bit!
Ive noticed a distinct difference in passengers attitude to authority in the past few years particularly when it comes to using mobile phones on board (when they shouldnt be), and talking through safety demos etc etc.
I'll bet you arent the only one, its a constant battle. Did you need to get the flight deck to talk to them eventually, ? Is it the same with all carriers you handle or any in particular? thats assuming you arent flight deck...in which case ignore that bit
!Ive noticed a distinct difference in passengers attitude to authority in the past few years particularly when it comes to using mobile phones on board (when they shouldnt be), and talking through safety demos etc etc.
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Flight deck I am not, would be nice though!!
I just told them I wasnt removing the airbridge until they got the passengers back into the seats they had been allocated by load control. If they chose to allow them to move again afterwards, then at least i knoew it would not be on my conscience should something have went wrong.
There is a fine line that needs to be tread between providing good customer service and also ensuring safety of everybody, but ultimately as we all know its safety that comes first. When safety is and issue I couldnt care less if its joe bloggs or the queen, same rules apply to everybody.
Its only really one carrier we handle who expect their card holders to be treated like gods. Sorry but they arent any different from another passenger for me. You might have a passenger in economy who has saved for years to afford a holiday, why should they receieve any less quality service than somebody who flys every week?
I just told them I wasnt removing the airbridge until they got the passengers back into the seats they had been allocated by load control. If they chose to allow them to move again afterwards, then at least i knoew it would not be on my conscience should something have went wrong.
There is a fine line that needs to be tread between providing good customer service and also ensuring safety of everybody, but ultimately as we all know its safety that comes first. When safety is and issue I couldnt care less if its joe bloggs or the queen, same rules apply to everybody.
Its only really one carrier we handle who expect their card holders to be treated like gods. Sorry but they arent any different from another passenger for me. You might have a passenger in economy who has saved for years to afford a holiday, why should they receieve any less quality service than somebody who flys every week?
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The comment on the pay thay UK dispatchers receive is spot on they are grossly underpaid IMO, Dispatchers should have to hold a licence in the same way as Pilots, Engineers and ATC have to hold a licence before they can work, only then will they be treated and paid as the professionals that they are
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Yes, a lot of people are reluctant to mention anything negative about Ryanair, which is a shame as I think there is a lot of room for improvement in many of their ops.
Does their standard loading policy usually result in a tendency to go a lot forward or aft of the C of G generally? And do they use the same nominal pax and bag weights as everyone else in the EU? How do Easyjet and other LCCs compare with this?
How are they on last minute fuel top ups too? I understand the Capt has to get management approval to upload anything above the legal min. contingency fuel - is that correct?
Pay has always been an issue, when I was a despatcher at LHR (some years ago now), we would always request double shifts when they were available to help make ends meet, and none of us could afford to live alone, so house sharing with 3/4 people was pretty much the norm - as it is for many cabin crew, customer service agents etc. Is it still the same, as theres isssues with fatigue management which at the time was not regulated? I'd be interested to hear what other issues and concerns you guys despatching face on a day to day basis now...same for loadmasters
Does their standard loading policy usually result in a tendency to go a lot forward or aft of the C of G generally? And do they use the same nominal pax and bag weights as everyone else in the EU? How do Easyjet and other LCCs compare with this?
How are they on last minute fuel top ups too? I understand the Capt has to get management approval to upload anything above the legal min. contingency fuel - is that correct?
Pay has always been an issue, when I was a despatcher at LHR (some years ago now), we would always request double shifts when they were available to help make ends meet, and none of us could afford to live alone, so house sharing with 3/4 people was pretty much the norm - as it is for many cabin crew, customer service agents etc. Is it still the same, as theres isssues with fatigue management which at the time was not regulated? I'd be interested to hear what other issues and concerns you guys despatching face on a day to day basis now...same for loadmasters
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The majority of dispatchers (including myself) are paid less than £7 an hour, on part time contracts usually offering 4-6 hours a day, the majority of shifts being earlies. I find myself and many others having to work double split shifts, typically something like 0430-0830 then 1730-2130, then back in at 0430 the day after) just to be able to eat 
Admittedly some days you'll spend hours sat down twiddling your thumbs but for others you're constantly under pressure running from stand to stand trying to get flights off on time.
IMO, for the pressure dispatchers are under and the amount of responsibility they have, the amount they're paid is a complete joke. They'll be the first ones to get blamed when the flight goes late and seem to spend 90% of the time trying to cover up delays for others, then face all the questions from management. You'd earn the same amount of money working in a fast food chain, where you'd get the benefits of decent training schemes and even degrees (McDonalds).
Getting anything more than 6hrs sleep is a novelty these days for me, and I'm sure many others.
Admittedly some days you'll spend hours sat down twiddling your thumbs but for others you're constantly under pressure running from stand to stand trying to get flights off on time.
IMO, for the pressure dispatchers are under and the amount of responsibility they have, the amount they're paid is a complete joke. They'll be the first ones to get blamed when the flight goes late and seem to spend 90% of the time trying to cover up delays for others, then face all the questions from management. You'd earn the same amount of money working in a fast food chain, where you'd get the benefits of decent training schemes and even degrees (McDonalds).
Getting anything more than 6hrs sleep is a novelty these days for me, and I'm sure many others.
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£7 an hour?!! thats almost the same as it was 20 years ago in London, which area of the UK are you in? I'm stunned!
How many hours a month are you averaging, and how many of those are split shifts , and how many FULL days rest do you get?
The responsibility factor has always been a big issue, and its good to see Bruce Dickinson / GHOST and the CAA raising awareness of an often overlooked safety aspect but it still has a long way to go.....
How many hours a month are you averaging, and how many of those are split shifts , and how many FULL days rest do you get?
The responsibility factor has always been a big issue, and its good to see Bruce Dickinson / GHOST and the CAA raising awareness of an often overlooked safety aspect but it still has a long way to go.....
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I earn £6.80 an hour, on a permanent part time contract for one of the biggest handling agents in the world, at a large North West airport
We do 6 on 3 off. Contracted to 20 hours per week, rostered to about 28 over 6 days. First day in usually starts around 0400-0700, with our last day in being a night shift (2200-0700, finishing work on our first day off).
Day 1 off is spent having a power nap when you get home, or sleeping for the whole day.
Day 2 is spent recovering from day 1
Day 3 is spent trying to make yourself tired at night to wake up at 0300 for work...
We aren't rostered to split shifts and can't be forced to do them, but it's pretty much the norm for most people on part time contracts.
We also aren't paid any extra for additional 'skills' (airlines). Whether I can dispatch every airline we handle or just one, I'm still paid peanuts.
We do 6 on 3 off. Contracted to 20 hours per week, rostered to about 28 over 6 days. First day in usually starts around 0400-0700, with our last day in being a night shift (2200-0700, finishing work on our first day off).
Day 1 off is spent having a power nap when you get home, or sleeping for the whole day.
Day 2 is spent recovering from day 1
Day 3 is spent trying to make yourself tired at night to wake up at 0300 for work...
We aren't rostered to split shifts and can't be forced to do them, but it's pretty much the norm for most people on part time contracts.
We also aren't paid any extra for additional 'skills' (airlines). Whether I can dispatch every airline we handle or just one, I'm still paid peanuts.
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I get paid £6.60 an hour. Anything over 37.5 hours is paid at time and a half and any overtime on a sunday is paid at time and two thirds.
I get shift pay which takes my hourly rate up to £7.40 p/h, and additional shift payments for a Saturday at approx 70p p/h and a Sunday of roughly £2p/h.
I'm also on a permananet 20 hour contract and have to work ridculous shifts to make a decent living. I regularly do double shifts starting at 0530, and finish at about 2300, then back in at 0530 again the next day for more.
I'm rostered around 35 hours every week, and although a full time contract would be justified, even over the winter, the company refuse to entertain the idea.
If my average wage from the first quarter of this year continues then i'll earn around £21k this year, however based on the figures above you can see how many hours I'm needing to put in to earn even that amount. Incidentally i think that would be a fare reflection of what the position should be paid for a 37.5 hour week, and would be perfectly happy with those conditions.
Like 750xl, im not paid any extra for being able to handle airlines that other colleagues can't. I hold a Viring Atlantic TCO license, and a British Airways TRC license, however earn no more per hour that folk who have no extra qualification and struggle to do things like fill out a AAA manifest. Sticks in the throat slightly, especially when the staff who are actually employed by said airlines earn salaries in the mid to high 20's for doing the same job, yet require less overall knowledge as they only need to know the procedures for that specific airline, not the umpteen that us handling agent employees do.
I get shift pay which takes my hourly rate up to £7.40 p/h, and additional shift payments for a Saturday at approx 70p p/h and a Sunday of roughly £2p/h.
I'm also on a permananet 20 hour contract and have to work ridculous shifts to make a decent living. I regularly do double shifts starting at 0530, and finish at about 2300, then back in at 0530 again the next day for more.
I'm rostered around 35 hours every week, and although a full time contract would be justified, even over the winter, the company refuse to entertain the idea.
If my average wage from the first quarter of this year continues then i'll earn around £21k this year, however based on the figures above you can see how many hours I'm needing to put in to earn even that amount. Incidentally i think that would be a fare reflection of what the position should be paid for a 37.5 hour week, and would be perfectly happy with those conditions.
Like 750xl, im not paid any extra for being able to handle airlines that other colleagues can't. I hold a Viring Atlantic TCO license, and a British Airways TRC license, however earn no more per hour that folk who have no extra qualification and struggle to do things like fill out a AAA manifest. Sticks in the throat slightly, especially when the staff who are actually employed by said airlines earn salaries in the mid to high 20's for doing the same job, yet require less overall knowledge as they only need to know the procedures for that specific airline, not the umpteen that us handling agent employees do.