Navigation impossible?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Queensland
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Navigation impossible?
I had my second Nav excercise a few days ago! Boy, was that fun...er...a challenge (to say the least). I had got my GFPT. Mastered the training area, and was slowly starting tp think that I was a pilot and then I go do this Nav! PLEASE TELL ME THIS GETS EASIER!?
I was completely overwhelmed with all the things to do. Have a correct track, altitude, CLEAR checks, fuel log, ETA's etc. etc. and then figuring out where you are while remaining out of Controlled Airspace and listening/transmitting on the right frequencies and then conducting circuits at a foriegn airport!! Ahhhhhh.....
I just wanted to know how all of you managed with your first Nav's and if you have any hints, because at the moment I feel like I just can't do it. Also wondering if anyone knew of a good way of improving mental arithmatic (I do feel like I am slowly improving everyday, everytime I put away the calculator and just have a go at the calculation)?
I was completely overwhelmed with all the things to do. Have a correct track, altitude, CLEAR checks, fuel log, ETA's etc. etc. and then figuring out where you are while remaining out of Controlled Airspace and listening/transmitting on the right frequencies and then conducting circuits at a foriegn airport!! Ahhhhhh.....
I just wanted to know how all of you managed with your first Nav's and if you have any hints, because at the moment I feel like I just can't do it. Also wondering if anyone knew of a good way of improving mental arithmatic (I do feel like I am slowly improving everyday, everytime I put away the calculator and just have a go at the calculation)?
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: YBAS
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Victa,
PPL navigation training is one of the toughest things you will do when learning to fly. As you said, there is a lot to do, and initially it seems terribly overwhelming; sometimes too overwhelming!!
You must realise though that you have only just completed navex 2. I'm not too sure of your syllabus, but there should be at least 5 more to go. These five exercises will give you approximately 12 to 13 more hours in the chair, and at the end of it you will feel fairly confident and in control of your new situation.
A system that helped me in my navexs', all those many moons ago, was to plot out on the lounge room floor where I was going ie. the red saucer was Jandakot, the tea cup was Northam etc. Once I had my route layed out I just "flew" around it practising everything that I would be doing on the flight like departure calls, 1:60's, CLEAROFFs etc. You may feel like a turd, but the practice does help - and don't forget to give yourself an engine failure somewhere too!
A rule of thumb that helped me with mental calculations is don't be too precise with the numbers. If you have to multiply 22 by 16 then simply multiply 20 by 15 (or 10 by 15 then double it), and then add "a bit" ( a very scientific calculation that can only be found on extremely complex calculators) and this should get you close enough to the required answer. This method however is only good for those times when "close enough is good enough", if you need to be precise, then use a pencil and paper!
As I said earlier, PPL navs are the hardest you will do. They all get easier from here on in. What you are learning now gives you the fundamentals that you will hone, and utilise, in all forthcoming navs ie. commercial navexs. Be tough on yourself, try for perfection, do everything the way you are suppose to do it, and at the end of Nav 7 you will be ready to show the CFI exactly how competent you are!
Good Luck!
PPL navigation training is one of the toughest things you will do when learning to fly. As you said, there is a lot to do, and initially it seems terribly overwhelming; sometimes too overwhelming!!
You must realise though that you have only just completed navex 2. I'm not too sure of your syllabus, but there should be at least 5 more to go. These five exercises will give you approximately 12 to 13 more hours in the chair, and at the end of it you will feel fairly confident and in control of your new situation.
A system that helped me in my navexs', all those many moons ago, was to plot out on the lounge room floor where I was going ie. the red saucer was Jandakot, the tea cup was Northam etc. Once I had my route layed out I just "flew" around it practising everything that I would be doing on the flight like departure calls, 1:60's, CLEAROFFs etc. You may feel like a turd, but the practice does help - and don't forget to give yourself an engine failure somewhere too!
A rule of thumb that helped me with mental calculations is don't be too precise with the numbers. If you have to multiply 22 by 16 then simply multiply 20 by 15 (or 10 by 15 then double it), and then add "a bit" ( a very scientific calculation that can only be found on extremely complex calculators) and this should get you close enough to the required answer. This method however is only good for those times when "close enough is good enough", if you need to be precise, then use a pencil and paper!
As I said earlier, PPL navs are the hardest you will do. They all get easier from here on in. What you are learning now gives you the fundamentals that you will hone, and utilise, in all forthcoming navs ie. commercial navexs. Be tough on yourself, try for perfection, do everything the way you are suppose to do it, and at the end of Nav 7 you will be ready to show the CFI exactly how competent you are!
Good Luck!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wait Awhile
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done Victa!
I thought flying was all about circuits........then i had to learn how to use a pencil as well.
On the first Nav, my instructor really did most of the work. Pointed here, made suggestions there, prompted everywhere. It went well. Second, Third, Fourth navs he was MUCH less helpful. I was so behind the a/c, i thought it left me in the crapper at Essendon. I also wondered a few times, if it could be done.
It does get easier, it's just a steep learning curve.
It helps to set your own standards. If you are hard on yourself( within reason) on your solo navs, you will probably find it easier to please yor over-seer on your dual exercises, which in turn gives you more self-confidence. Training a/c, i reckon are a very tiring environment to learn in. You are already under stress, from planning the flight, they smell, they are noisy and bumpy, have a mind of their own, and are either too hot or too cold. So many times i've dripped out of a cessna, totally *****ed after only a couple of hours........... It made me wonder how people work 6 or 8 hours a day in the things.
Anyway Victa, stick with it as the hard things are always the worthwile ones. You'll be over the moon when you get it sussed and pass your test
P.s even the C.F.I messes up a radio call occasionally!
I thought flying was all about circuits........then i had to learn how to use a pencil as well.
On the first Nav, my instructor really did most of the work. Pointed here, made suggestions there, prompted everywhere. It went well. Second, Third, Fourth navs he was MUCH less helpful. I was so behind the a/c, i thought it left me in the crapper at Essendon. I also wondered a few times, if it could be done.
It does get easier, it's just a steep learning curve.
It helps to set your own standards. If you are hard on yourself( within reason) on your solo navs, you will probably find it easier to please yor over-seer on your dual exercises, which in turn gives you more self-confidence. Training a/c, i reckon are a very tiring environment to learn in. You are already under stress, from planning the flight, they smell, they are noisy and bumpy, have a mind of their own, and are either too hot or too cold. So many times i've dripped out of a cessna, totally *****ed after only a couple of hours........... It made me wonder how people work 6 or 8 hours a day in the things.
Anyway Victa, stick with it as the hard things are always the worthwile ones. You'll be over the moon when you get it sussed and pass your test
P.s even the C.F.I messes up a radio call occasionally!
Last edited by JONESING; 24th May 2002 at 10:27.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: BrisVegas
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dont sweat it Victa. everyone of us have been there.
the only advice I can add to the excellent advice already given, is three things.
last but not least, relax. if you were suppose to master it in two nav's, there would only be two PPL navs in the syllabus. practice will make perfect so stay cool. you probably haven't done a diversion yet. that will keep you on your toes.
just my (very longwinded) two cents.
radar.
the only advice I can add to the excellent advice already given, is three things.
- keep it simple. you dont need to make it an exact science. As BTT said, make your calculations as close as you can get. naturally, the closer the better, but you dont need decimal places. for example, if you fly a FULL 5 DEGREES off track for a FULL 60 MILES, you will only be 5 miles off track. draw a 5 mile circle on your map, it aint that big. your 1 in 60's are designed to get you heading back in the right direction, they aren't a calculation to get you overhead your destiation give or take 1 metre.
- the best advice anyone has ever given me is what he called the three fundamentals of navigation.
HEADING. GROUNDSPEED. TIME.
fly your set heading, at your calcualted groundspeed for a certain amount of time and there is only ONE place you can be. and you will NEVER MISS. (he also made me write those three words a hundred times after a Nav, it worked.) - LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE. never navigate out your side window. pick your fix ahead of you, do all your calc's for that fix before you get there. that is the basics of working ahead of the aircraft.
last but not least, relax. if you were suppose to master it in two nav's, there would only be two PPL navs in the syllabus. practice will make perfect so stay cool. you probably haven't done a diversion yet. that will keep you on your toes.
just my (very longwinded) two cents.
radar.
Last edited by radar o'reilly; 24th May 2002 at 12:16.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Queensland
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you BelowTenThousand, JONESING and radar o'reilly. Your advice so far has been most helpful and is much appreciated.
I'm already beginning to feel not as useless as I thought --> I did feel quite disheartened when I got back from my Navex 2 (although I was relieved that we did not get lost and that we made it back in one piece).
Again, I'd like to thank you guys for your excellent advice. The best thing I could do I suppose is to just give it a try and just keep persisting. :-)
I'm already beginning to feel not as useless as I thought --> I did feel quite disheartened when I got back from my Navex 2 (although I was relieved that we did not get lost and that we made it back in one piece).
Again, I'd like to thank you guys for your excellent advice. The best thing I could do I suppose is to just give it a try and just keep persisting. :-)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: I prefer to remain north of a direct line BNE-ADL
Age: 48
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 0
Received 33 Likes
on
10 Posts
Keep your head up mate! Its an expensive process, but once you get that PPL it is worth it I can guarantee! I cant remember anything before Nav 4 mate! haha, go for it!!!!!!!
Grandpa Aerotart
Victa,
Get your pencil and mark it with a cut every 10nm...so you can use it as a distance ruler. Mark along the route a small line every 10nm.
What everyone is saying about the 1/60 rule is spot on....on the track distances you're flying close enough is good enough. You can't steer to an accuracy of 1 degree and there's 1nm of track error, over 60nm, to begin with.
I presume you are in a C152 or some such....cruises about 95 to 100 kts? That's a fraction over 1.5nm/minute TAS. That's 10nm every 6 and a bit minutes....call it 7. If you're doing 105Kts call it 6.
Fixed over a bend of a river? put your pencil down and see that it's a bit less than 1/2 a 10nm graduation....must be about 3 or 4 nm left of track. Stick your pencil down again....hmmm 3 graduations from your last fix in 18 minutes. Stick your pencil down again...hmmm 4 graduations to where I want to go...hmmmm...say 4 off in 30 = 8 degrees track error....4 off in 40 = 6 degress Closing angle........hmmm 14 degrees right and 24 minutes....my original estimate was in 23 minutes.....
If ya feeling lazy just double your track error and you'll recross track in another 18 minutes....turn back 8 degrees left and you'll maintain original track required for the last 6 minutes/10nm to your turning point/airfield etc.
Hint for diversions:
Sit down with your WAC and draw freehand lines between places...then guesstimate the true track...then measure it with your protractor. Keep doing that until you can get within say 5 or at most 10 degrees....yes it's possible. Then when you are trolling along on a dual Nav....precisely aware of where you are
and your tormentor says........"Ahhhhh don wanna go their anymore....take me here!" you will be able to put your pencil down at a point between two 10nm lines along your track that correspondes to where you're at....draw a freehand line to where dickbrain wants to go...guess a track...apply the variation...turn onto that as a heading...when settled on that heading measure the distance with your pencil.....hmmm 4 1/2 graduations...27 minutes from now at time 13 = 40....What did that take...30 seconds?.
So what if you guess at the track was out by 7 degrees...if you do nothing for the next 27 minutes you'll only be out by 5nm....and we both know ya aren't gunna sit there fat, dum an happy for 27 minutes....are you
Traps:
Carefull with variation....apply it the wrong way and that's 12 degrees TE to start with (East Coast)
Don't just stare out you side window and hope that everything you need to see is there....it wont be....sit back, relax and take in all the view....what is 10nm ahead and a few miles left and right are the important bits.
Don't think in nm, think in minutes. That way you'll stay ahead...what's coming up in 4 minutes....ahh that loop in the river with a bridge 2 nm west....cool.
Don't get too caught up applying wind at the flight planning stage. Yes you need to be able to do it to keep dickbrain happy....but hey, how often do you think the met dept get it right? I personally think you're better served steering heading for track and allowing say 5 degrees for any KNOWN wind and see how you go as you progress along track....you will be surprised at how well that works.
Remember that a navex is just a series of corrections which keep you going in the right direction and within 2 minutes of your revised ETAs. It's not an exercise in precision....how much time you spend calculating the corrections is what makes or breaks you.
With practice and experience in guesstimating you can be within a mile or so of track and +/- 30 seconds with surprisingly little effort.
Chuck.
Get your pencil and mark it with a cut every 10nm...so you can use it as a distance ruler. Mark along the route a small line every 10nm.
What everyone is saying about the 1/60 rule is spot on....on the track distances you're flying close enough is good enough. You can't steer to an accuracy of 1 degree and there's 1nm of track error, over 60nm, to begin with.
I presume you are in a C152 or some such....cruises about 95 to 100 kts? That's a fraction over 1.5nm/minute TAS. That's 10nm every 6 and a bit minutes....call it 7. If you're doing 105Kts call it 6.
Fixed over a bend of a river? put your pencil down and see that it's a bit less than 1/2 a 10nm graduation....must be about 3 or 4 nm left of track. Stick your pencil down again....hmmm 3 graduations from your last fix in 18 minutes. Stick your pencil down again...hmmm 4 graduations to where I want to go...hmmmm...say 4 off in 30 = 8 degrees track error....4 off in 40 = 6 degress Closing angle........hmmm 14 degrees right and 24 minutes....my original estimate was in 23 minutes.....
If ya feeling lazy just double your track error and you'll recross track in another 18 minutes....turn back 8 degrees left and you'll maintain original track required for the last 6 minutes/10nm to your turning point/airfield etc.
Hint for diversions:
Sit down with your WAC and draw freehand lines between places...then guesstimate the true track...then measure it with your protractor. Keep doing that until you can get within say 5 or at most 10 degrees....yes it's possible. Then when you are trolling along on a dual Nav....precisely aware of where you are
and your tormentor says........"Ahhhhh don wanna go their anymore....take me here!" you will be able to put your pencil down at a point between two 10nm lines along your track that correspondes to where you're at....draw a freehand line to where dickbrain wants to go...guess a track...apply the variation...turn onto that as a heading...when settled on that heading measure the distance with your pencil.....hmmm 4 1/2 graduations...27 minutes from now at time 13 = 40....What did that take...30 seconds?.So what if you guess at the track was out by 7 degrees...if you do nothing for the next 27 minutes you'll only be out by 5nm....and we both know ya aren't gunna sit there fat, dum an happy for 27 minutes....are you
Traps:
Carefull with variation....apply it the wrong way and that's 12 degrees TE to start with (East Coast)
Don't just stare out you side window and hope that everything you need to see is there....it wont be....sit back, relax and take in all the view....what is 10nm ahead and a few miles left and right are the important bits.
Don't think in nm, think in minutes. That way you'll stay ahead...what's coming up in 4 minutes....ahh that loop in the river with a bridge 2 nm west....cool.
Don't get too caught up applying wind at the flight planning stage. Yes you need to be able to do it to keep dickbrain happy....but hey, how often do you think the met dept get it right? I personally think you're better served steering heading for track and allowing say 5 degrees for any KNOWN wind and see how you go as you progress along track....you will be surprised at how well that works.
Remember that a navex is just a series of corrections which keep you going in the right direction and within 2 minutes of your revised ETAs. It's not an exercise in precision....how much time you spend calculating the corrections is what makes or breaks you.
With practice and experience in guesstimating you can be within a mile or so of track and +/- 30 seconds with surprisingly little effort.
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 24th May 2002 at 13:31.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All previous comments are valid and great advice. Mine would be to carry a bag of barley sugar lollies to suck on. They keep the sugar levels up and stop the pressure head aches so are more alert especially on the longer navs. You have the ten minute markers on your maps so that is when its time to do a CLEAROFF and navigate. DONT overnavigate its a waste of time. Pick a big feature to fly to that's on track and flt towards it, enjoy the view. That's as hard as it gets. It does get easier, good luck.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: YBAS
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahh AV8...
Memories come flooding back of instructor training...
Sitting in the right hand seat, on our way to Collie, teaching you these exact same things your passing on to Victa!!
Good to see you have come to terms with navigation, and are now passing the information on.
BTT
Memories come flooding back of instructor training...
Sitting in the right hand seat, on our way to Collie, teaching you these exact same things your passing on to Victa!!
Good to see you have come to terms with navigation, and are now passing the information on.
BTT
Grandpa Aerotart
BIK you have no soul
Centaurus....you weren't lost...just temporarily geographically embarrassed
I got lost on my second solo nav....best thing that ever happened to me
Chuck
Centaurus....you weren't lost...just temporarily geographically embarrassed
I got lost on my second solo nav....best thing that ever happened to me
Chuck
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it difficult-yes
will it get easier-yes
will the next licence/rating be difficult-yes
will that get easier-yes
after all if it was easy everyone would do it,
but the difficulty is half the fun, you never stop learning, and if you have stopped learning you must be dead or in another profession.
all the best mate after a few more navex's you will wonder what all the stressing was about, unless of course the instructors doing his job and loading you up a little more with extra challenges
will it get easier-yes
will the next licence/rating be difficult-yes
will that get easier-yes
after all if it was easy everyone would do it,
but the difficulty is half the fun, you never stop learning, and if you have stopped learning you must be dead or in another profession.
all the best mate after a few more navex's you will wonder what all the stressing was about, unless of course the instructors doing his job and loading you up a little more with extra challenges
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Three Tors
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very sage advice from Chuckles.....
Commonly referred to as The Big Picture!
That largish mountain with the radio mast on it up around 15 miles ahead, that body of water/resovoir off track to one side (what side of that should I be flying?), those grain silos to the left/right of that road junction, that large esturary mouth etc etc.... It is all in the practical application of the big picture, and believe it or not it can come down to the shapes of these features or a combination of where they are in relation to each other that can give you a good fix of where you are at. You can then fine tune it to a point where you can say with certainty "me here!"
Good onya, keep at it.
what is 10nm ahead and a few miles left and right are the important bits.
That largish mountain with the radio mast on it up around 15 miles ahead, that body of water/resovoir off track to one side (what side of that should I be flying?), those grain silos to the left/right of that road junction, that large esturary mouth etc etc.... It is all in the practical application of the big picture, and believe it or not it can come down to the shapes of these features or a combination of where they are in relation to each other that can give you a good fix of where you are at. You can then fine tune it to a point where you can say with certainty "me here!"
Good onya, keep at it.
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, there has been a lot of really good advice posted here for all to see, best of all there was no BAD advice!
One thing that I always tell people is that: "You never get lost on a nav., you only change the place you want to go to!" That solves all problems
Keep at it Victa, as the stress fades the pleasure takes over.
Good Luck
BSB
One thing that I always tell people is that: "You never get lost on a nav., you only change the place you want to go to!" That solves all problems
Keep at it Victa, as the stress fades the pleasure takes over.
Good Luck
BSB
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: FNQ
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1 in 60, 10nm markers, WAC, GS checks?? What is all all that stuff?? I thought the secret of happiness was "GO TO" "ENTER"
Seriously though, some great advice offered, must agree with the idea of flying track as heading and Ground speed as TAS. This of course must be taken with a grain of salt, flew with a guy (charter pilot finishing off his c210 ICUS) one day that told me he didn't trust GPS and would use it, that was fine except he didn't bother to use his WAC either, rather embarasing result!! I've found if you use forcasted weather as a guide and say we will PROBABLY be left/right of track and early/late and first fix and see what happens then use a 1:60 at the fix works well. Remember allowing for wind once and all it did was increase my off track error.
Certainly that near enough good enough idea is good too!!! Was coming back the other day IFR with a TSO gps and all the bells and whistles and approach told me to track present position to a 10nm final, read it straight back then wondered how the hell I was actually going to do it, could have plotted the co-ords ect and used the GPS but I was 70nm to the west with a North/south runway so turned 10deg left and it worked like a charm. The old basic methods are quick easy and best of all they work
Seriously though, some great advice offered, must agree with the idea of flying track as heading and Ground speed as TAS. This of course must be taken with a grain of salt, flew with a guy (charter pilot finishing off his c210 ICUS) one day that told me he didn't trust GPS and would use it, that was fine except he didn't bother to use his WAC either, rather embarasing result!! I've found if you use forcasted weather as a guide and say we will PROBABLY be left/right of track and early/late and first fix and see what happens then use a 1:60 at the fix works well. Remember allowing for wind once and all it did was increase my off track error.
Certainly that near enough good enough idea is good too!!! Was coming back the other day IFR with a TSO gps and all the bells and whistles and approach told me to track present position to a 10nm final, read it straight back then wondered how the hell I was actually going to do it, could have plotted the co-ords ect and used the GPS but I was 70nm to the west with a North/south runway so turned 10deg left and it worked like a charm. The old basic methods are quick easy and best of all they work
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Queensland
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks guys for your encouragement and excellent advice. I will definitely be printing this forum topic out and be keeping it for reference for the next few weeks while I make my way through to PPL.
Grandpa Aerotart
The last time i put wind on a flight plan was 1990...taking a Queen Air from POM to Honiara, via Gizo...in the middle of the night...no GPS....no DME after about 80 Gurney...ADF doing poor mans weather radar impersonation due plenty of CBs (Equatorial Nocturnal?). Nothing close to on track anyway...no VOR until 80 odd miles Honiara.
Weather forecast said NW at 20 odd....steered heading for an hour or two...bad feeling in pit of stomach...decide that it's wrong time of year for NW winds, must be SE Trades...guestimate 1 in 60...heart in mouth change heading 30 + degrees....1 hour later and 5 minutes early bust through a line of cells and see Gizo on the nose at 15 or 20 miles....now the ADF points straight ahead...for the first time
Finished off with a georgous full moon trip down the Slot to Honiara.
I still use 1 in 60 occasionally at Mach .80/FL410 with dual FMSs. Good way to calc how far left or right is needed to get around a big nasty red blotch on the wx radar
Chuck.
). Nothing close to on track anyway...no VOR until 80 odd miles Honiara.Weather forecast said NW at 20 odd....steered heading for an hour or two...bad feeling in pit of stomach...decide that it's wrong time of year for NW winds, must be SE Trades...guestimate 1 in 60...heart in mouth change heading 30 + degrees....1 hour later and 5 minutes early bust through a line of cells and see Gizo on the nose at 15 or 20 miles....now the ADF points straight ahead...for the first time
Finished off with a georgous full moon trip down the Slot to Honiara.
I still use 1 in 60 occasionally at Mach .80/FL410 with dual FMSs. Good way to calc how far left or right is needed to get around a big nasty red blotch on the wx radar
Chuck.
Every stage you do will seem difficult. You'll sort of wish you were doing the last completed qualification because (as you think now) it is so much easier.
Of course it wasn't at the time...
Of course it wasn't at the time...
