QANTAS START UP
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Australia
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Now QF have a two stage plan in starting up Australian Airlines. First is start up operating base from Cns focussed on taking nthn qlnders to Asia, but mainly targetted on bringing asian tourists to tropical Qld.
QF will establish second operational base in
a southern capital and a/c will increase as will routes potentially to Canada, Greece and mainland China. Focus will then be on those services taking Aus tourists direct to those destinations, and reverse tourist traffics to southern states.
QF will establish second operational base in
a southern capital and a/c will increase as will routes potentially to Canada, Greece and mainland China. Focus will then be on those services taking Aus tourists direct to those destinations, and reverse tourist traffics to southern states.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Launceston. Tasmania,Australia
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If QFare able to crew their AA operation with pilots from mainline QF or source them from sidelined and fully trained AN pilots the objective will be to reduce costs. This is a low cost operator, right? Flying tours from Asia to Ozzie holiday destinations. Whether those cost savings are purely in salaries paid or conditions, savings there will be. But why the outrage from the incumbent QF pilots. Have you not heard of the laws of supply and demand? Are you so far up y.. I mean removed from the commercial realities of the world that their ex Ansett chums must defer to them and say 'gee I can't let the side down'. But there are several mortgage payments due and the kids go back to school in January. Com'on you guys! Get real what would you do?
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Yeah it is a low cost operation, but pilot costs are 3/5ths of 4/8ths of ****** all of the total cost of the operation. Those of you who think that by employing ex Ansett or AWAS or other O/S pilots on lower wages than QF mainline pilots will magically achieve most of Oz Airlines cost reduction targets are mistaken (or are wishfully thinking either about a job for yourself or are jealous about any further opportunities for QF pilots). Think about all the other bigger costs: Cabin Crew, inflight service, maintenance etc. These are the areas that will be targetted for significant cost reductions. By basing in CNS you have already reduced Pilot costs because they can fly to all the planned destinations as a two man crew instead of the three man crew that is required out of SYD. By employing QF mainline crew on secondment to Oz Air they will achieve further pilot cost reductions through reductions in pay role tax and different conditions of service etc. It will also have benefits in synergies & quality control of the training of crew, route/regional experience of the crew, industrial harmony etc.
My prediction: QF mainline pilots will crew OZ Airlines on a 3-5 year secondment.
My prediction: QF mainline pilots will crew OZ Airlines on a 3-5 year secondment.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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mmm, in my last post I used a six letter word beginning with 'B' and ending '***** '. It is a word used in every day Ozzie speech, is featured in two well known Toyota adds, and generally causes no offence to any Ozzie. Yet for some reason the PPrune software automatically filtered it out and replaced it with ******. Political correctness gone mad. 
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Agreed Thy, Why should I, or any other Ex-An driver deny themselves any job offer just because somone thinks it is at a discount rate. What right do these peolpe have to demand that we desist from offering our sevices to any carrier at a rate that WE are comfortable with. I want continuation of my airline career and I will accept a rate of pay that my employer and I find mutually agreeable. For those who think that this somhow denigrates the status of Air Pilots then I suggest that you are displaying a 'Stuff you, Jack...' attitude. These people are incredibly naieve if they think for one moment that I would deny myself a position with a start-up carrier just because they 'say so'.
Join Date: Dec 2000
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I agree totally that pilot pay is an almost insignificant cost to running an airline. Having said that, and with the benefit of recent experience with the new Ansett contract, I firmly believe that the QF/AA negotiators will INSIST on lower pilot pay. Why? Simply because they can!
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Sly, may I suggest that it is you who are displaying the "Stuff you Jack" attitude?
If you want to be part of the undercutting trend...and screw this business for everyone in your haste to get a window seat instead of applying for a mainline S/O position, then go ahead. But see my post on page one to see why you shouldn't do so.
If you want to be part of the undercutting trend...and screw this business for everyone in your haste to get a window seat instead of applying for a mainline S/O position, then go ahead. But see my post on page one to see why you shouldn't do so.
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Dear Mr. The_Cutest_of_Borg ,
oh how I enjoyed reading your post. it displayed quite possibly the greatest lack of maturity that I have seen on this web site it many years.
have you ever stopped to think that there is more than one airline out there and perhaps going to QF and spending many years as a S/O holds absolutely no interest for us at all.
oh how I enjoyed reading your post. it displayed quite possibly the greatest lack of maturity that I have seen on this web site it many years.
have you ever stopped to think that there is more than one airline out there and perhaps going to QF and spending many years as a S/O holds absolutely no interest for us at all.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Bonza, it is you who have no grasp of what I am writing. I take it you are an Australian who wishes to be employed in major Australian airline. For if you are not then your post makes no sense at all.
For if you are such, unless you are already type rated on the 737, you have one employment choice at the moment. QF.
QF operates 767's and pays it's 767 pilots on the lower end of the world scale.
Whatever way you dress it, AA is a QF airline, which will operate QF 767's on current QF 767 routes.
Opportunists such as sly would seek to undercut the current QF 767 rate for their own short term gain.
Yet if they swallowed their pride and applied to become S/O's (for a start the pay as a -400 SO would probably be higher than the the reduced rate they would accept as an F/O at AA), they would also probably find themselves in the right hand seat of the same AA aircraft within 12-18 months at current promotional rates. And at the current pay, with a career path in mainline QF.
Bonza if you have no interest in QF, fine. But people should be aware of the long term ramifications of their actions.
For if you are such, unless you are already type rated on the 737, you have one employment choice at the moment. QF.
QF operates 767's and pays it's 767 pilots on the lower end of the world scale.
Whatever way you dress it, AA is a QF airline, which will operate QF 767's on current QF 767 routes.
Opportunists such as sly would seek to undercut the current QF 767 rate for their own short term gain.
Yet if they swallowed their pride and applied to become S/O's (for a start the pay as a -400 SO would probably be higher than the the reduced rate they would accept as an F/O at AA), they would also probably find themselves in the right hand seat of the same AA aircraft within 12-18 months at current promotional rates. And at the current pay, with a career path in mainline QF.
Bonza if you have no interest in QF, fine. But people should be aware of the long term ramifications of their actions.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Mate, never before have I witnessed such a "Let them eat cake" attitude 'Borg, If you can get me a job as a QF S/O, I would be most grateful. I would certainly enjoy being offered a second chance at a career with an excellent company such as QF. However, you most certainly have a nerve to suggest that I am an "opportunist" if I were to be offered and accept a position at AA, if indeed such circumstance were to eventuate. In the event that it does, IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHAT SALARY AND CONDITIONS I CHOOSE TO ACCEPT OR REJECT. Understand?? My current salary at present is $12.97 ph., plus some loadings. Yet I do this work cheerfully because it puts bread on the table for my kids to eat. Hell, I even enjoy it because of the people I work with. However even flying a C210 would be a step up for me and many, many others at the moment. This is part of the law of supply and demand. Competition. Get it? You are way out of line to suggest that I have a 'Stuff you..' attitude. With no flying job and breadline income, I am a long way from being 'all right'. Why should I, or others, deny ourseves income or a career path simply because it makes you feel comfortable? In any event, your umbridge is misplaced, your anger should be focused at your company IF AND WHEN they offer employment outside of mainline QF. Somthing which has not occured yet and may not even eventuate. Do not castigate others because they seek to break free from most unfortunate circumstance.
[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: Sly'n Smiley ]
'Borg, If you can get me a job as a QF S/O, I would be most grateful. I would certainly enjoy being offered a second chance at a career with an excellent company such as QF. However, you most certainly have a nerve to suggest that I am an "opportunist" if I were to be offered and accept a position at AA, if indeed such circumstance were to eventuate. In the event that it does, IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHAT SALARY AND CONDITIONS I CHOOSE TO ACCEPT OR REJECT. Understand?? My current salary at present is $12.97 ph., plus some loadings. Yet I do this work cheerfully because it puts bread on the table for my kids to eat. Hell, I even enjoy it because of the people I work with. However even flying a C210 would be a step up for me and many, many others at the moment. This is part of the law of supply and demand. Competition. Get it? You are way out of line to suggest that I have a 'Stuff you..' attitude. With no flying job and breadline income, I am a long way from being 'all right'. Why should I, or others, deny ourseves income or a career path simply because it makes you feel comfortable? In any event, your umbridge is misplaced, your anger should be focused at your company IF AND WHEN they offer employment outside of mainline QF. Somthing which has not occured yet and may not even eventuate. Do not castigate others because they seek to break free from most unfortunate circumstance.[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: Sly'n Smiley ]
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Sly, if by yours or anyone elses actions, you undercut my pay rate at my company, then it is my business.
The QF rate for 767 should be the benchmark for flying a 767 in Australia. By accepting less than that from QF, lets not kid ourselves, that what AA is, then you participate in the ongoing undermining of the entire Australian profession.
This is not a "let them eat cake" attitude. It is about preserving hard won rates and conditions.
The flow on effects from having the AA aircraft crewed by mainline QF are obvious. MORE JOBS at proper pay rates. Not more jobs at devalued rates and conditions.
Any management type at QF and elsewhere must be overjoyed by some of the sentiments expressed here.
The QF rate for 767 should be the benchmark for flying a 767 in Australia. By accepting less than that from QF, lets not kid ourselves, that what AA is, then you participate in the ongoing undermining of the entire Australian profession.
This is not a "let them eat cake" attitude. It is about preserving hard won rates and conditions.
The flow on effects from having the AA aircraft crewed by mainline QF are obvious. MORE JOBS at proper pay rates. Not more jobs at devalued rates and conditions.
Any management type at QF and elsewhere must be overjoyed by some of the sentiments expressed here.
Join Date: Jan 2000
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Borg, it's an interesting line that you push and would be great in the real world. However, the facts are these. The level playing field you desire with regard to 76 pay in Australia would only happen if people could see the main recruitment system within QF working for them. I agree 100% that the ideal way would be to have everyone into the mainline QF system and seconded across to AA. However, the system doesn't work this way. There are currently a large, (LARGE!) number of 767,744,738 rated guys in the hold from this neck of the woods that have been waiting patiently for their turn for over a year now. They have all completed everything. Medical, sims,and ref. checks. Why haven't these blokes been given start dates? I hear the argument of some that perhaps they aren't at the top of the pile, but this doesn't mix because you cant say that 4 blokes from the same operator can all miss out. Nah, something more sinister here. In the mean time all of us continue to wait and see. So, to argue the line about using mainline to get in, is flawed because the way they conduct the intakes are flawed in some respect. I remain pessimistic of anything coming in from QF for those of us in this boat. yep it would be great, but your recruiters don't do it that way. Maybe the AA boat is what they have lined up for all? 
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Borg you are the closest thing a Dinosaur yet.. You sound like a Arthur Scargill of the 1970's UK miner union fighting a rearguard action against an inevitable force you have yet to comprehend. Those conditions are hard won maybe but not set in concrete. Qantas is looking for cost savings wherever they may come from. A bit here another bit there. The savings will never come from just one area. No one seems to refer to the current dispute with the engineers and maintainence staff. Your 'professional' colleagues. They were not so precious to be left alone by your management. But that all aside you keep you finger firmly in that Dyke.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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My two cents worth - and I am a QF driver. I'm sure that all of us in QF feel a great deal of sympathy with the Ansett pilots who have lost their jobs in the lead up to Christmas.
However I do agree with Borg that holding a window seat in a previous company does not provide an automatic entitlement to a window seat with a new employer (particularly when this involves bypassing those who have already done time in the company). To the ex-Ansett guys I would say "Please don't sell yourselves short". By offering to fly for whatever rate, you are only encouraging companies to pay lower and lower wages. This in turn puts pressure on EXISTING wages and conditions. I totally empathise with those who have mortgages etc to pay, but QF have said that there should be continued employment opportunities (probably over 100 pilots) next year.
As Borg has said, being a 744 S/O on existing pay and conditions would probably pay a higher wage than working as a 767 F/O for a lower rate than currently exists. QF have said that ex-Ansett staff are encouraged to apply for job vacancies, and that these vacancies will be filled by existing recruiting practices. Some have expressed outrage that they have worked in an airline and have missed out with QF. I was in the RAAF and have similarly seen several very experienced multi-engine jet transport pilots miss out with QF. This is just an exigency of the process.
To sum up - please don't sell yourselves short. Apply to QF. With the current expansion plans for the next 6 years you would probably be back in the RHS within 2 years. Being prepared to work for next to nothing will only put pressure on ALL of our wages. Interesting too that the LOWEST wages drive pilot's conditions, whereas the HIGHEST wages are used to justify CEO and upper-level management wages (called WORLD'S BEST PRACTICE I think)!!
However I do agree with Borg that holding a window seat in a previous company does not provide an automatic entitlement to a window seat with a new employer (particularly when this involves bypassing those who have already done time in the company). To the ex-Ansett guys I would say "Please don't sell yourselves short". By offering to fly for whatever rate, you are only encouraging companies to pay lower and lower wages. This in turn puts pressure on EXISTING wages and conditions. I totally empathise with those who have mortgages etc to pay, but QF have said that there should be continued employment opportunities (probably over 100 pilots) next year.
As Borg has said, being a 744 S/O on existing pay and conditions would probably pay a higher wage than working as a 767 F/O for a lower rate than currently exists. QF have said that ex-Ansett staff are encouraged to apply for job vacancies, and that these vacancies will be filled by existing recruiting practices. Some have expressed outrage that they have worked in an airline and have missed out with QF. I was in the RAAF and have similarly seen several very experienced multi-engine jet transport pilots miss out with QF. This is just an exigency of the process.
To sum up - please don't sell yourselves short. Apply to QF. With the current expansion plans for the next 6 years you would probably be back in the RHS within 2 years. Being prepared to work for next to nothing will only put pressure on ALL of our wages. Interesting too that the LOWEST wages drive pilot's conditions, whereas the HIGHEST wages are used to justify CEO and upper-level management wages (called WORLD'S BEST PRACTICE I think)!!
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Borg,
get of your high horse.QF 767 benchmark wages?Were they not significantly less than AN?What about QF 2nd officers accepting domestic B scale denegrating domestic wages well before Impulse & VB.
Why didn`t those morally righteous S/O s make a benchmark stand for the good of aviation-as you advocate others to do.
Three Bars,
ex AN would prefer a direct enty to AA for obvious reasons-quicker promotion,not being a mapfolder sitting behind the pilots and a more 21st century cockpit culture.
Not trying to undermine your conditions but just honest sentiments.Good luck as I sincerely believe it to be criticle QF maintain good conditions.Do not expect others to refuse opportunities to maintain yours!
My 2 cents worth:AA and AWAS initially.Very experienced 89ers ect as Captains and very experienced ex AN F/Os(not burdened with Claytons S/O time) as the F/Os.Just thought I would match all of your expedience.
get of your high horse.QF 767 benchmark wages?Were they not significantly less than AN?What about QF 2nd officers accepting domestic B scale denegrating domestic wages well before Impulse & VB.
Why didn`t those morally righteous S/O s make a benchmark stand for the good of aviation-as you advocate others to do.
Three Bars,
ex AN would prefer a direct enty to AA for obvious reasons-quicker promotion,not being a mapfolder sitting behind the pilots and a more 21st century cockpit culture.
Not trying to undermine your conditions but just honest sentiments.Good luck as I sincerely believe it to be criticle QF maintain good conditions.Do not expect others to refuse opportunities to maintain yours!
My 2 cents worth:AA and AWAS initially.Very experienced 89ers ect as Captains and very experienced ex AN F/Os(not burdened with Claytons S/O time) as the F/Os.Just thought I would match all of your expedience.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Autobrakes,
give AWAS a call,tell them you are an experienced 767 Capt.
They will ask you to forward a resume as they are working on a large upcoming contract.
You will probably crew AA but don`t think your management aren`t looking at all the options.
give AWAS a call,tell them you are an experienced 767 Capt.
They will ask you to forward a resume as they are working on a large upcoming contract.
You will probably crew AA but don`t think your management aren`t looking at all the options.