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Air Canada

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Air Canada

Old 23rd Aug 2020, 04:46
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 39
Posts: 697
Obviously pre-COVID salaries, so without current cost-cutting measures that may be in place.
Four things:

First, if you're that far away from applying to an airline, you have other things to think about. Don't put the cart before the horse. I taught many students who had themselves in the left seat of an A320 - badges on their flight bags and all - yet couldn't keep a C172 on the centreline or couldn't figure out a hold entry in their head. Don't worry about the money until you're right ready to put the resume in. Even then, you should have noticed from those websites that AC has a 4-year fixed scale that is independent of aircraft type, so what you're really saying in your post is that you've not done any research and want to be spoon-fed. That's not the attitude that will win you over in an AC interview, so work on changing that right now before thinking about the money.

Second, if you do the math based on income taxes here in Canada, $54k gross is around $42 net, so no both websites are not saying very different things. They're saying the exact same thing. Also, why 80 hours? Most airline pilots in Canada are paid on a flight credit of around 75-77 hours in a month, so going up to 80 would either include a few hours of OT or would be paid out as straight time depending on how you got that many hours - at any rate, that information would skew the data for what you're trying to accomplish. Work with 75 hours. Besides, I can't really remember a month I ever flew up to the block like that, even before the disease that shall not be named. 80 hours is a lot of time away from home. The money is not worth it.

Third, the AC contract was fixed at 10 years back when it was signed, so this: https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/...ian/air_canada is about as close as you're going to get. Contracts in Canada are between the company and the union and not for public dissemination in whole or in part. So what you're really asking is for someone to break their contract with the company. At a time where companies are just begging for reasons to reduce their costs.

Fourth, by the time you were hired, AC would have a new agreement with its pilots. I stand to be corrected on the specific date, but I believe negotiations are meant to open in 2023. This whole COVID mess will not likely see an off-the-street pilot hired until 2024 or 2025 at the earliest - that's lots of time for WACONS (Wages and Conditions) to change enough that your data could be far out to lunch.



+TSRA is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 05:55
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Europe
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by +TSRA View Post
Four things:...
+TSRA, firstly thank you for your, albeit quite judgemental, reply.

I don’t know why you are assuming I don’t already work for an airline? You know what they say when you assume...? I also don’t appreciate being judged to be in the same bracket as your “students” and I think you would agree (if you really are a teacher/instructor as your post presumes) that you should not conjecture my flying skills before even knowing the slightest thing about me.

The point about being “spoon-fed” and that I haven’t done my “research”...clearly you haven’t read those websites as they OBVIOUSLY show different pay scales for every year! BOTH OF THEM! My question was completely valid and I take great offense to, basically, being called lazy. PPRuNe is always my last point of call when the answer is not found elsewhere. And I am glad to say I don’t have to think about the money too much. Unfortunately it is a necessity in this day and age to help a family get by and so having some prior information to enable a family to plan in advance is usually quite helpful. However, I agree with what you say lower down in your post that things could, and will likely change, in the very near future, but we can still form an educated guess from the current situation. Don’t you agree?

With regards again to the $54k / $42k salaries, again these salaries don’t provide any info whether they are before tax / after tax, whether they are just a base salary or a mix of base, flight pay, allowances, OT bonuses etc. I completely understand your concern for people breaking their contracts. If they have a confidentiality agreement, then I am sure each person is competent and capable enough to make up their own minds if they want to disseminate information. I am not holding a gun to anyone’s head. I simply asked for information from some people who may or may not know. If no one is willing to share said information, then so be it. I won’t lose sleep over it.

Regarding the 80 hours a month, thank you for this point. I did not know this and I have taken it on board. Where I work, 80 hours a month is below average flight hours (obviously pre-COVID) for most people. So I based it on that, but it was a best guess with the information I had at the time. I will use 70 hours in future as a more conservative estimate. Thank you.

I am both amazed and frustrated that I had to explain myself because you made a few ill-placed assumptions about someone from a simple question they asked. I get the impression you have been offended by my question, by the way you have responded to me. If I have offended you, I apologise. But please heed my advice not to make such assumptions in future.

As for an answer to my question, even though you have not provided a conclusive answer, I will take from your post that the FO pay is fixed at somewhere around $50k/y gross (before tax) for the first few years (contradicting the aforementioned websites).
CPL27 is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 23:10
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 39
Posts: 697
I don’t know why you are assuming I don’t already work for an airline?
It is an unspoken and unwritten rule not to talk about career progression when so many of our brethren are facing personal and career disasters. I don't know that you don't work for an airline, but simply asking the question at this time implies you don't. This is my third downturn in aviation, and definitely the worst in the history of the industry. In my experience, the only people who asked such questions during a downturn are not employed as a professional, but are students or recently graduated. Ergo, I would not expect them to know the intricacies and decorum expected by other professionals, so I respond as my experience indicates. Could I have been less of a twit in my response? Possibly, but I've found most professionals prefer to be told information straight and without superfluous platitudes to massage an ego. The type of information you added into your questions indicated a level of attention to detail that will not win you over during the interview with AC. Don't you prefer to find that out now so you can work on it rather than in the interview room when it's too late?

you should not conjecture my flying skills before even knowing the slightest thing about me.
Re-read my post. You'll notice I did not comment on your flying skills. You could be the second coming of Chuck Yeager or Bob Hoover for all I know. However, your post and the type of information you sought indicated a lack of critical thinking because quite a bit of the information you seek was already answered in those two websites, assuming you took the time to compare the two. Again, it's not what you said, it's when and how you asked it.

The point about being “spoon-fed” and that I haven’t done my “research”...clearly you haven’t read those websites as they OBVIOUSLY show different pay scales for every year! BOTH OF THEM!
Nope, I read them both. And what I saw was one that had various updates posted in 2004, 2005, 2011, and 2020 and the other was updated in 2018. So it's pretty clear to me which one to trust and which can be discounted. I can also see from both that it doesn't matter if you're flying the EMB or A320, that the first few years have flat pay regardless of type. This is the sort of attention to detail that I was referring to.

As for an answer to my question, even though you have not provided a conclusive answer
But I did. Let me do it for you again: https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/...ian/air_canada


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Old 24th Aug 2020, 05:38
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 237
CPL27,

Quit before it becomes more embarrassing.
Climb150 is offline  
Old 25th Aug 2020, 08:38
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Europe
Posts: 3
Climb150...please, if you have nothing constructive nor useful to say, best not say anything.

+TSRA, I have reread what you said initially and I now see what you meant by the 4 year fixed pay scale. I misinterpreted what you meant by this and that is now clear to me from this website. So again, thank you for that.

With regards to not discussing this topic at this uncertain time, I completely understand your point. I am different maybe in the way that I am always looking at planning and bettering my future. I have many friends and colleagues who have lost their careers and livelihoods recently as well and even mine is by no means secure. But, for me, I see no harm in trying to see the future in a more positive light. This is all I was trying to do when I asked my question initially. I didn’t expect to offend anyone nor did I expect to be patronised for it in return.

Thank you for explaining the website above for me (airlinepilotcentral). As I said before, I know it will likely change, but for now it is something to go on.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 18:13
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 237
There is a difference between planning for the future and making passive aggressive posts about wanting up to date pay scales.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 14:53
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the dark side of the moon
Posts: 953
Originally Posted by Climb150 View Post
There is a difference between planning for the future and making passive aggressive posts about wanting up to date pay scales.
Speaking of passive aggressive, go back and read your original reply.
J.O. is offline  
Old 27th Aug 2020, 23:39
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by J.O. View Post
Speaking of passive aggressive, go back and read your original reply.
What the someone's posts were embarrassing to themselves?
I don't know how that rates as passive aggressive.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 15:04
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East end.
Posts: 243
It's basically pointless to lay all that info or for someone who isn't going to be hired here while that's the package.

The contract will change by then...

Anyway, to correct what was said above, contract reopener negotiations are open now, again in 2023, and the contract opens right up in 2024.

80 hours was doable before covid. Also training pays on top of your block. The hourly wages are all posted out there on the internet for you to go find also. Also CA pay is YOS so if you upgrade in year 4 you start at year 4 CA pay.
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