Buffalo Airways licence suspended
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would be interesting to know the flying experience of these people who call the Buffalo people clowns.
How about that crew that landed a perfectly normal working 777 into the ground short of the runway in SFO on a clear day with no wind?
How about that crew that landed a perfectly normal working 777 into the ground short of the runway in SFO on a clear day with no wind?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,852
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting discussion. More news from CBC: Buffalo Airways shutdown troubles few customers in N.W.T., Nunavut - North - CBC News
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 630
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would hazard a guess that Air France is probably forthcoming with the regulators with their hats in hands and wrists out ready for a good slapping.
All the paperwork would be done with risk management systems that makes it so the accident will never happen again!
Joe's attitude to TC however is to politely tell them to go and have relations with themselves.
It's a funny world we live in.
All the paperwork would be done with risk management systems that makes it so the accident will never happen again!
Joe's attitude to TC however is to politely tell them to go and have relations with themselves.
It's a funny world we live in.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Anywhere and nowhere
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What an industry, Air France can kill a whole plane full of pasengers due to a simple airspeed failure, along with an F/O who lacked the fundimentals of flying skills{ airspeed failure was a common problem when we first got the 320} go of the end in Toronto, crash a Concorde with total chaos in the flight deck, and nobody calls them "clowns" or lifts their OC, but if a small bush outfit dares to belly a DC3/C46 in due to multiple failures {featherig pump on top of engine failure} by skill {and a bit of luck} they harm nobody then those who have never flown the North or these aircraft feel free to slag them as "clowns" whilst omiting that the likes of Air France who are in the top three of pasenger fatalities amougst heavy air cariers . As I said before, Joe may have sinned, but I suspect their major sin is poor paperwok, not bad piloting or maintanence.
And what would you have done, top gun, had you been in the flight deck of a fireball?
Typical old pilot mentality, thinking they're the best and they know everything...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lifeboy , Air France and the BEA have in fact been acused of being too close to each other in that the investigations conducted by the BEA have been "soft" on Air France, certainly to the outside observer it would appear so,in fact the whole Airbus/Air France/BEA set up has been questioned by non- French observers as showing bias and a lack of investigative zeal, indeed with the revelations in regards to the total incompetance displayed in their last few acidents how else can the fact that its "buisines as usual" at Air France? In the case of Joe, yes he can be abrasive, but speaking from experience the "goon squad" attidudes along with many inspectors simply not making the grade in the real world , thus finishing up in Transport, hardley promotes the sort of atmosphere needed to solve problems, Mind you, TC is by no means the only government department to suffer from such failings, the CRA for one needing a house cleaning, lets not even mention the " Upper Chamber!" The greater problem seems to be TCs love affair with SMS looks to be a flawed concept and a total failure in many cases, simply generating masive amounts of paper without any tangible improvments in safety, how are one and two plane operators suposed to handle this paper work burden without hiring more staff, thus being forced out of buisiness by the costs of additional payroll? What is needed is a complete and totally neutral look at the whole operatinn of TC and the industry to be done by experienced veterans of the industry, for it is obvious that the present system is simply not working.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Newcomer, as you show no aviation qualifications on your profile, along with you somewhat juvinile post using such phrases as "Top Gun" on what is a civilian site leads me to belive that you are in no way qualified to comment, and have you actually read the enquiry into the Concorde crash? A few points from the enquiry, {1} Downwind take of {2} Over MTOW {3} F/E shutting down an engine with no cross check with the pilots, thus dooming the aircraft. Whether the situation could have had a different outcome without these failures in cockpit procedures is pure conjecture, but given the total confusion and lack of the most basic SOP drills by the F/E the outcome of this situation could have only one outcome. As an end note, it was found during the enquiry into the crash that wheel/brake/ anti skid units had been incorectly assembled by Air France employees resulting in high side loads on the gear , some maintain this was the real cause of the fire and debris damage to the wing tank, perhaps someone has more details than have been published on this?
Last edited by clunckdriver; 6th Dec 2015 at 14:57.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Anywhere and nowhere
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then I invite you to re-read the final report, which concluded:
-The excess mass (about 800kg) had no significant effect on the T/O distance / stop distance
-The wind was in fact light and variable (contrary to what ATC said)
so I don't know how you concluded that they took off with a tailwind
-The FE did shut down the engine that had to be shut down (#2)
Thrust on #3 and #4 was volontary reduced (by whom? I don't have time to check if it's in the report)
Nowhere in the report is stated that the FE doomed the aircraft
It's even mentioned that had all the engines been working properly, the result would have probably been the same given the fire that was spreading quickly (have you seen the pictures just after take-off? They had no chance to survive that)
On a side note, comparing the number of accidents at AF, which has thousands of flights a week, with Buffalo's is quite laughable...
-The excess mass (about 800kg) had no significant effect on the T/O distance / stop distance
-The wind was in fact light and variable (contrary to what ATC said)
so I don't know how you concluded that they took off with a tailwind
-The FE did shut down the engine that had to be shut down (#2)
Thrust on #3 and #4 was volontary reduced (by whom? I don't have time to check if it's in the report)
Nowhere in the report is stated that the FE doomed the aircraft
It's even mentioned that had all the engines been working properly, the result would have probably been the same given the fire that was spreading quickly (have you seen the pictures just after take-off? They had no chance to survive that)
On a side note, comparing the number of accidents at AF, which has thousands of flights a week, with Buffalo's is quite laughable...
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a side note, comparing the number of accidents at AF, which has thousands of flights a week, with Buffalo's is quite laughable...
How many people has Buffalo killed during all the decades they have been flying?
The truth is that Buffalo Airways has never had a fatality in 45 years of operations, according to the Aviation Safety Network data base:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...e.php?var=5078
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...e.php?var=5078
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, Newbe, as I stated by myself, the aircraft was most likely doomed anyway, but the qualified folks who maintain that the FOD damage was a "Red Herring" have been ignored, indeed the miss-asembly of landing gear components would have put extream side loads on the gear, resulting in scuffing of the tire, which in most cases results in tire failure on a heavy aircraft. As for the light and variable winds, I prefer to go with the actual winds reported by the tower, as Im sure most of us would. Only 800 kilos over?, this is just another example of a pretty poor respect for safety and the "right way" to do things in aviation. As another poster just pointed out, Buffalo have a long history along with NO FATALS, which is the point myself and others are making when it comes to regulators {not just TC} in their dealing with smaller operators.For those who brush of such things as knowingly taking of overweight and serious maintanence mistakes I would sugest that you are in the wrong field of endevour.
Last edited by clunckdriver; 6th Dec 2015 at 18:41.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The truth is that Buffalo Airways has never had a fatality in 45 years of operations, according to the Aviation Safety Network data base:
So does that not say something about the skills level of their crews?
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those who brush of such things as knowingly taking of overweight and serious maintanence mistakes I would sugest that you are in the wrong field of endevour.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CpnCrunch, Please show me where I said that, if you cant simply withdraw you false statement. I have no doubt however that many operators have flown overweight, both knowingly and unintentionly, way back when my aircraft was loaded {by error} with twice the legal lower cargo load, to say the departure was "interesting" would be an understatement.What went wrong? Shift change in load control was not handled the way it should have been, the good news was as we were scheduled for four stops that night we had full methanol tanks, by using all of the methanol we made it around the patch but all four engines had to be checked for over temps, the load sheet by the way showed us under gross!
Last edited by clunckdriver; 7th Dec 2015 at 11:15. Reason: Memory failure!
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CpnCrunch, Please show me where I said that, if you cant simply withdraw you false statement. I have no doubt however that many operators have flown overweight, both knowingly and unintentionly, way back when my aircraft was loaded {by error} with twice the legal lower cargo load, to say the departure was "interesting" would be an understatement.What went wrong? Shift change in load control was not handled the way it should have been, the good news was as we were scheduled for four stops that night we had full methanol tanks, by using all of the methanol we made it around the patch,{dumping fuel way below the recomended altitude by the way} but all four engines had to be checked for over temps, the load sheet by the way showed us under gross!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I repeat , show me where I made such a statement, and yes, the MAJOR thrust of TC audits is most often pure paper work, if Buffalo was overweight this should be handled by enforcement on being informed by the TSB ,correct me if Im wrong in this. Im still waiting for you to find my statement as requested, or are you in the habit of making false statements and putting words in others mouths? And just for the record at no time have I stated that its OK for Buffalo or any other operator to take of overweight, so again try to work up the decency to retract you false acusation.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Anywhere and nowhere
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I take it that being an old pilot means ones mentality is suspect, versus the superior mentality of a young pilot?
Implying that the crew did not do a good job ("chaos in the cockpit", "FE doomed the aircraft") when nothing else could have saved them (read the report, and take a look at the pictures), and bringing up this accident into this thread is very disrespectful to the victims and their families. I call it poor judgement from Clunckdriver.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: In Space
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember watching one episode where TC told them they needed to start working out the weight and balance and produce load sheets.
Mikey's response "My dad has been doing this for 35 years and he can tell if the aircraft will be overweight just by looking at it...." Jesus I'm surprised they haven't crashed more!
After that episode I saw Buffalo in a new light and the more I watched the show the more I could tell they were a circus act.
Surely those DC aircraft are not certified to fly in known icing conditions.
Mikey's response "My dad has been doing this for 35 years and he can tell if the aircraft will be overweight just by looking at it...." Jesus I'm surprised they haven't crashed more!
After that episode I saw Buffalo in a new light and the more I watched the show the more I could tell they were a circus act.
Surely those DC aircraft are not certified to fly in known icing conditions.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its OK Chuck, this "Old pilot mentality" is busy converting some "Young pilot mentality" to our corporate aircraft these days, At least one {Should we keep him, very mutch in doubt at this time} has real problems with basic flying skills, {Could be his training, knowing where he trained} but doesnt seem able to program a simple hold into our top of the line equipment whilst hand flying, but blaiming the design of the nav/fms system doesnt exactly bode well for the future survival chances of the person. Now for "is a DC3 legal FIKI? the short answer is yes, if so equiped, it may not be the most sophisticared system, but it does work, however some C47 were built without boots and many airframes have the boots removed, in fact if anyone knows where the are some spare/seviceabl DC4 boots, let us know, they are needed for a vintage operation so as to be able to cross the pond safely.Now, as for "Looking at an aircraft to tell its weight" Does this poster belive Spiderman is real? Dear Lord, that statement is/was for TV and aimed at the average IQ out in "TV Land!"And as for "Newcomer", I have indeed read the BEA report, and other reports from some very qualified organizations rebutting the BEA investigation,{ I suspect the truth is somewher in between the two positions.} As for being disrespectfull to the dead, what utter nonsense, if investigations are to be PC from now on we might just as well shut down the TSB, belive me ive been in more stinking/smoking holes picking up little pieces than most, Im sure you wouldnt aprove of the "grave yard" humor which goes on in such places , but the job gets done .
Last edited by clunckdriver; 7th Dec 2015 at 11:58. Reason: Coffee break.