Why is Air Canada losing so much money and what can done about it?
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It looks like canadian government's protectionism of AC has always been detrimental to canadian aviation. For example, look at the demise of Canada 3000 in 2001. The government refuse to help them, even though they were in a good position to survive.
Of course, there is guys on this forum, who are smarter than me, what concerns the details. But could it not be actually good for canadian aviation in the long run, if AC disapears? May be, there would be a lots of start ups after that, which could actually survive, if they did not have to compete with government's money being directly or indirectly pumped into AC.
Of course, there is guys on this forum, who are smarter than me, what concerns the details. But could it not be actually good for canadian aviation in the long run, if AC disapears? May be, there would be a lots of start ups after that, which could actually survive, if they did not have to compete with government's money being directly or indirectly pumped into AC.
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Brucee is probably the guy who freaked out in the cockpit over Europe last year when the Captain had to land single pilot. Just trying to get an early retirement !!
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Saving Air Canada...
"A!"
Mebbie a new paint job 'an a song by Celiene Dion for awl da people to 'ear. Dat would do it!
Wadda you mean dey hawlready try dat?
OK try a picture of 'er on da tail, den.
T
Mebbie a new paint job 'an a song by Celiene Dion for awl da people to 'ear. Dat would do it!
Wadda you mean dey hawlready try dat?
OK try a picture of 'er on da tail, den.
T
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Jazz Flight
I am not an Interline member and like most of the Public to me Jazz = Air Canada. I flew Jazz to San Diego on a Bombardier 90 seater and returned from SFO on a similar Embraerer a/c. Best flights and service on an Air Canada flight ever. Small problem with the entertainment system on the SFO/YVR leg but everything else wonderful. San Diego is a very user friendly destination. All access transit pass for three days $12.00
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Well, I've only been Moose-side for 5 years, but the parallels in that time between AC and the dead / dying / zombiefied European legacy carriers such as Sabena, Swissair, Aer Lingus and Alitalia etc really are striking. My biggest personal concern, at least on the monthly transatlantic flights I make, is the sheer lack of enthusiasm for the job exhibited by 70-80% of the cabin crews. This is not 'AC-bashing', it really is a simple fact. As a paying passenger, it appears that far too many of them would rather not be there.
I am sure all the historical factors mentioned above all play their part in the current mess. But the upshot is that many paying passengers like me simply chose to 'book with AC only if there's no convenient alternative flight.' It's my money and I've been disappointed too many times. End of.
As to the future? These things do, eventually, end in tears. Probably one of two ways. Effective bankrutcy along the lines of Sabena with something like SN Brussels(?) or whatever hanging on in the deepest shadows, or yet another botched-reincarnation attempt on a smaller scale like Alitalia until the inevitable repeats 3-4 years later. Given the level of political meddling, I'd say the latter.
We'll see.
I am sure all the historical factors mentioned above all play their part in the current mess. But the upshot is that many paying passengers like me simply chose to 'book with AC only if there's no convenient alternative flight.' It's my money and I've been disappointed too many times. End of.
As to the future? These things do, eventually, end in tears. Probably one of two ways. Effective bankrutcy along the lines of Sabena with something like SN Brussels(?) or whatever hanging on in the deepest shadows, or yet another botched-reincarnation attempt on a smaller scale like Alitalia until the inevitable repeats 3-4 years later. Given the level of political meddling, I'd say the latter.
We'll see.
Thread Starter
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Globe and Mail article
Air Canada seeking $600-million loan - The Globe and Mail
Globe and Mail update, Monday, Jun. 15, 2009 02:05PM EDT
Air Canada (AC.B-T1.490.021.36%) is seeking a $600-million loan from a group of lenders, including Ottawa.
Three of the airline's five unions agreed last Monday night to new 21-month collective agreements that would expire in the spring of 2011, but those pacts are subject to the carrier's ability to secure new financing, union officials have told members at ratification meetings.
The federal government would play a minority role in its contribution in the lending syndicate, union officials say.
Air Canada needs new financing to help it stay above an $800-million minimum cash balance required by a credit-card processor to keep payments flowing from passengers. If the Montreal-based carrier isn't able to secure new loans, analysts say it could be forced to file for bankruptcy protection for the second time in six years.
As well, Air Canada's top officers would see their salaries frozen - with no bonuses - until the spring of 2011, coinciding with the union members' wage freeze. And there would be no improvements to executive pension plan benefits through 2013.
Under the tentative labour pact, Air Canada shares will also be distributed to its unions: International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, Air Canada Pilots Association, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Canadian Auto Workers and the Canadian Air Line Dispatchers Association (CALDA).
Unions would be awarded shares to be credited to the pension plan, which has a $2.9-billion solvency deficit.
The IAMAW, CAW and CALDA are urging employees to ratify the tentative agreement and help cash-strapped Air Canada avoid filing for bankruptcy protection.
Those three unions are supporting management's proposal for the company to defer most of its pension contributions until the spring of 2011. The Air Canada Pilots Association and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, which represents flight attendants, continued to say they are hoping for a breakthrough this week, but remain in contract talks with management under federal mediator James Farley.
Ottawa must still approve a proposed pension-funding moratorium
Globe and Mail update, Monday, Jun. 15, 2009 02:05PM EDT
Air Canada (AC.B-T1.490.021.36%) is seeking a $600-million loan from a group of lenders, including Ottawa.
Three of the airline's five unions agreed last Monday night to new 21-month collective agreements that would expire in the spring of 2011, but those pacts are subject to the carrier's ability to secure new financing, union officials have told members at ratification meetings.
The federal government would play a minority role in its contribution in the lending syndicate, union officials say.
Air Canada needs new financing to help it stay above an $800-million minimum cash balance required by a credit-card processor to keep payments flowing from passengers. If the Montreal-based carrier isn't able to secure new loans, analysts say it could be forced to file for bankruptcy protection for the second time in six years.
As well, Air Canada's top officers would see their salaries frozen - with no bonuses - until the spring of 2011, coinciding with the union members' wage freeze. And there would be no improvements to executive pension plan benefits through 2013.
Under the tentative labour pact, Air Canada shares will also be distributed to its unions: International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, Air Canada Pilots Association, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Canadian Auto Workers and the Canadian Air Line Dispatchers Association (CALDA).
Unions would be awarded shares to be credited to the pension plan, which has a $2.9-billion solvency deficit.
The IAMAW, CAW and CALDA are urging employees to ratify the tentative agreement and help cash-strapped Air Canada avoid filing for bankruptcy protection.
Those three unions are supporting management's proposal for the company to defer most of its pension contributions until the spring of 2011. The Air Canada Pilots Association and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, which represents flight attendants, continued to say they are hoping for a breakthrough this week, but remain in contract talks with management under federal mediator James Farley.
Ottawa must still approve a proposed pension-funding moratorium
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They should take a lesson from some of the asian carriers. 5yr contract. When the contract ends,it ends. Period. No old jet bags allowed !
I Have Control
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Old bags
Positioning over with AC a few times this year, it has been astounding to witness the apathy (punctuated by short bouts of rudeness) displayed to the pax by the cabin crew....old boilers of both genders...well sort of, if you get my drift.
There was not one shred of evidence of service orientation on any of the flights. And the groundstaff in Canada were no better.
They deserve to lose their jobs, but when they do, the company will have folded. And this is unlikely.
There was not one shred of evidence of service orientation on any of the flights. And the groundstaff in Canada were no better.
They deserve to lose their jobs, but when they do, the company will have folded. And this is unlikely.
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The Air Canada experience from a passenger perspective is abhorrent most of the time; there is a handfull of people in that organization who should be awarded the medal of honor nevertheless. Aside from any Canadian regulation (protectionism) I truly believe the answer is 'free market' competition. Westjet has proven itself a formidable adversary in that regard mostly in the domestic scope, Air Transat as well in limited markets and no doubt there are others. But..the international market remains unscathed at Air Canada and I think that is their bread and butter. Emirates has been attempting to gain further access into the Canadian market beyond the full A380's that arrive into Toronto weekly. I do believe that the majority of Canadian traveler has yet to experience service that doesn't include condescending school yard tactics, in-flight crews that are trained and mandated to be polite, smile and helpful and give the highest level of customer experience vs. what we all know as being the usual AC experience. Now before judgement is made I use Emirates as the example but that is to highlight the contrast..it can be any number of carriers. Isn't it time that this 'legacy' carrier either steps up to the plate or disappears altogether?
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I believe, unfortunatly, that to some extend Big Reds hands are tied. Granted their upper management are trough hogging pigs at the best of times, but then so are most major carriers in this day in age. The problem I see is that the Unions (CAW, et al) are almost unwilling to help the airline out. I understand completly that they (employees of AC) have given up quite a bit in the last 5-10 years through what the industry sees each time as the "final death throw of Air Canada", however I personally would rather have some sort of steady income, than hold my ground for what I have right now only to loose it in a couple of months. I dont work for Air Canada, but I do work with people who do and have many friends working the skies and the ramp and know that most of them would give their right nut just to keep going.
As for the service levels. If you get on any aircraft with someone obviously straight out of high school youre kidding yourself if you think service is going to be anything better than a Macs Milk.
Generally speaking, I have had nothing but excellent service with Air Canada and I have to fly them quite a bit for work. The best service I have received is the person in their late 20's to late 30's, who still enjoys travelling but has past that early 20's stage of "me, me, me" and has not yet hit that early 40's position of "damn it, damn it, damn it". In every industry there are bad eggs, its just that a nice, drop dead gorgeous 20 something sells beer a little better than the more mature fare that some airlines have (and considering you have to buy almost everything you get from AC, the need for cute 20 somethings is evident)
As for the service levels. If you get on any aircraft with someone obviously straight out of high school youre kidding yourself if you think service is going to be anything better than a Macs Milk.
Generally speaking, I have had nothing but excellent service with Air Canada and I have to fly them quite a bit for work. The best service I have received is the person in their late 20's to late 30's, who still enjoys travelling but has past that early 20's stage of "me, me, me" and has not yet hit that early 40's position of "damn it, damn it, damn it". In every industry there are bad eggs, its just that a nice, drop dead gorgeous 20 something sells beer a little better than the more mature fare that some airlines have (and considering you have to buy almost everything you get from AC, the need for cute 20 somethings is evident)
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RoyHudd
Who did you say you worked for? I would like to compare your carrier’s track record with your criticism of AC. Ahh that’s right you're not an airline pilot otherwise you'd know better.
hotndusty
Whets the matter couldn’t make the grade at AC so you’re hiding out in Dubai?
Get a life loser’s…
Who did you say you worked for? I would like to compare your carrier’s track record with your criticism of AC. Ahh that’s right you're not an airline pilot otherwise you'd know better.
hotndusty
Whets the matter couldn’t make the grade at AC so you’re hiding out in Dubai?
Get a life loser’s…
Thread Starter
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I see some people specialize in poster bashing but have no take on the subject of the thread. Do they even have an opinion ?
I travel often on Air Canada, and generally have great service from staff. I do not think that is a major issue. Of course there has been exceptions, but they were rare.
From talking to Air Canada pilots (who seem to refrain from posting here except maybe to bash other posters) they tell me that they gave up a lot in the last negociations only to see the investors rape the coffers just when things were getting better. Air Canada (or ACE) paid dividends (they claim) to the investors instead of giving the company a chance to recover properly and did not put money into the black hole that is the Air Canada pension fund. In Other words, the investors grabbed their money and ran, leaving the company high and dry.
Now, the company is asking the Unions to work with the company for further belt tightening measures, and the Unions feel this will only allow more coffer raping by new investors, leaving the company in financial trouble again.
What Air Canada needs is upper management whose primary interests is not the interest of big investors and big money, but the interests of Air Canada and its employees. Can these two interests be divergent ?
I travel often on Air Canada, and generally have great service from staff. I do not think that is a major issue. Of course there has been exceptions, but they were rare.
From talking to Air Canada pilots (who seem to refrain from posting here except maybe to bash other posters) they tell me that they gave up a lot in the last negociations only to see the investors rape the coffers just when things were getting better. Air Canada (or ACE) paid dividends (they claim) to the investors instead of giving the company a chance to recover properly and did not put money into the black hole that is the Air Canada pension fund. In Other words, the investors grabbed their money and ran, leaving the company high and dry.
Now, the company is asking the Unions to work with the company for further belt tightening measures, and the Unions feel this will only allow more coffer raping by new investors, leaving the company in financial trouble again.
What Air Canada needs is upper management whose primary interests is not the interest of big investors and big money, but the interests of Air Canada and its employees. Can these two interests be divergent ?
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Minorite Invisible
Good post you seem to have a handle on the goings on at AC. Everyone thought that the vulture funds were tossing AC a helping hand during the bankruptcy but reality proved quite different. AC survived in the past in spite of all the Government meddling by being a whole company. The vulture funds with the help of inept senior management/board of director’s sold off all the profitable arms of AC and then expected it to survive and service its financial obligations in a worldwide recession. A classic story of money manager’s greed with little knowledge or insight into the blight of the industry. The travelling publics wish to travel on the cheap but cry foul when the industry training/ maintenance safety standards go down the toilet hasn’t helped the industry.
Maybe in the collective wisdom of government a new regulation will be passed prohibiting airlines from losing money.
Good post you seem to have a handle on the goings on at AC. Everyone thought that the vulture funds were tossing AC a helping hand during the bankruptcy but reality proved quite different. AC survived in the past in spite of all the Government meddling by being a whole company. The vulture funds with the help of inept senior management/board of director’s sold off all the profitable arms of AC and then expected it to survive and service its financial obligations in a worldwide recession. A classic story of money manager’s greed with little knowledge or insight into the blight of the industry. The travelling publics wish to travel on the cheap but cry foul when the industry training/ maintenance safety standards go down the toilet hasn’t helped the industry.
Maybe in the collective wisdom of government a new regulation will be passed prohibiting airlines from losing money.
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Hey Tan,
..."not an airline pilot otherwise you'd know better".
..."what's the matter couldn't make the grade at AC so hanging out in Dubai".
Firstly, you obviously don't know my background and also don't appreciate that I have many good friends at Air Canada - my hope is that AC, in fact, will become profitable again, but most importantly, that the divided cultures that exist there and can't seem to let it go will eventually begin tugging in the same direction. I do think that you've misunderstood not only the topic but my comments as not 'AC bashing' but rather just the opposite - that the survivability of AC depends on free market dynamics being accepted as well as a change in the overall mentality of management and employee there - including the standard of customer service. Lastly, your intelligent rebuttal has me wonder if you are an airline pilot older than 25 yrs. and unfortunately it's your attitude that sadly, is part of the problem.
..."not an airline pilot otherwise you'd know better".
..."what's the matter couldn't make the grade at AC so hanging out in Dubai".
Firstly, you obviously don't know my background and also don't appreciate that I have many good friends at Air Canada - my hope is that AC, in fact, will become profitable again, but most importantly, that the divided cultures that exist there and can't seem to let it go will eventually begin tugging in the same direction. I do think that you've misunderstood not only the topic but my comments as not 'AC bashing' but rather just the opposite - that the survivability of AC depends on free market dynamics being accepted as well as a change in the overall mentality of management and employee there - including the standard of customer service. Lastly, your intelligent rebuttal has me wonder if you are an airline pilot older than 25 yrs. and unfortunately it's your attitude that sadly, is part of the problem.