Will WJ 4000-hr min stand, in light of AC hiring rumours?
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I'm not really sure what the fuss is about. In fact, Air Canada is hiring from a wide range of experience levels, and a good number of the new recruits are going to be people who have a university degree but can barely qualify for an ATPL. There were several relatively low-timers in the first 2 courses.
There are several good reasons for this. One, people with minimal experience are more accepting of the lower pay rate that now lasts longer than the good-old 2 years of pain we remember from the past. Also, they will need people with education to fill management roles in the future. Contrary to what's being said, AC is not being swamped with resumes from experienced high time jet jockeys and jockettes from the likes of Westjet, Transat and Sky. Many of those people see AC as a major step back both in pay, and in future prospects for a lifestyle better than they currently enjoy.
There are several good reasons for this. One, people with minimal experience are more accepting of the lower pay rate that now lasts longer than the good-old 2 years of pain we remember from the past. Also, they will need people with education to fill management roles in the future. Contrary to what's being said, AC is not being swamped with resumes from experienced high time jet jockeys and jockettes from the likes of Westjet, Transat and Sky. Many of those people see AC as a major step back both in pay, and in future prospects for a lifestyle better than they currently enjoy.
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Safetyguy.
Oh really?
We have 75 or so resumes from WJ alone. If we were to hire all of them, 25% of their roster would be gone. That tells me that even WJ people can look beyond the "lower pay" and see the benefits that lie beyond that. As for hiring university people, I wouldn't draw to any clear conclusions. Most of present management are not university grads and in fact most AC pilots in general have no post secondary other than flight training. Just a modern day fad me thinks. Holds no water. As for prospects for a better lifestyle outside of AC? At the expense of been accused of AC arrogance, I don't think so !!. Man are you ever in the dark.
Oh really?
We have 75 or so resumes from WJ alone. If we were to hire all of them, 25% of their roster would be gone. That tells me that even WJ people can look beyond the "lower pay" and see the benefits that lie beyond that. As for hiring university people, I wouldn't draw to any clear conclusions. Most of present management are not university grads and in fact most AC pilots in general have no post secondary other than flight training. Just a modern day fad me thinks. Holds no water. As for prospects for a better lifestyle outside of AC? At the expense of been accused of AC arrogance, I don't think so !!. Man are you ever in the dark.
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I suppose I misspoke a little, Instead of high time, I should have said higher seniority people are not considering AC. If you don't believe me, ask several of my colleagues about that. Most of us are over 40 and well past the point of considering Air Canada as the apex of a career as it once was. I know guys from our company who've applied to AC, and almost all of them are junior F/Os under 35. As for lifestyle, that which is enjoyed by the more senior people at AC is not as likely in the future for new hires as it once was. I've seen the numbers and the advancement prospects, and they just aren't there unless you're young.
Personally, for myself and my colleagues who are Captains at my company, we're averaging 12 to 13 days a month, mostly long haul, with reasonable layovers in Europe. We took home close to $200K last year with less than 10 years in the company. I know lots of folks at AC who were hired at the same time as I was, and none of them had a year like that, both in terms of pay and lifestyle.
Personally, for myself and my colleagues who are Captains at my company, we're averaging 12 to 13 days a month, mostly long haul, with reasonable layovers in Europe. We took home close to $200K last year with less than 10 years in the company. I know lots of folks at AC who were hired at the same time as I was, and none of them had a year like that, both in terms of pay and lifestyle.
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I hate to butt in, but...
are West Jet and Air Canada the only airlines/air carriers in Canada??? Others ARE hiring, you know.
Based on 'appearances'....I'd say both carriers are full of themsleves. Especially WJ. (but, that's a personal opinion)
Technical exam for a potential B737NG F/O with little or no Jet time? I'd say that makes perfect sense. Why? Because the Canadian IATRA/SAMRA/SARON prepare you for SH*T.
Jet flying, whether or not you think it is, IS a BIG DEAL. So stop the denial. Glass airplanes are easy once you get to a certain comfort level. Getting there, like most things in life, takes time.
Just ask our Pinnacle Airlines friends who suffered the double engine failure at FL410. Sorry, I guess that's not possible.
If you have to ask whether or not the number of hours in your log book would be acceptable to either AC or WJ, then you're concerns are misplaced. What did you do whilst earning those hours? That's what the employers are curious to know. How comfortable will you be with the answer you give, given the opportunity?
Remember, you gotta know somebody on the inside. Because the HR department is misinformed and too lazy to read and understand your resume or to even determine the suitably qualified candidate. They're looking at total time too AND taking direction from some weenie who thinks you gotta know somebody. Pity.
The bottom line is this. If you exceed the minimum qualifications and experience, you SHOULD have a shot. Unless, your a single white anglo saxon male. Then, I'd say you should have stayed in school and made a better career choice.
Good luck to all. Whether you aspire to fly or to fly for Air Canada.
are West Jet and Air Canada the only airlines/air carriers in Canada??? Others ARE hiring, you know.
Based on 'appearances'....I'd say both carriers are full of themsleves. Especially WJ. (but, that's a personal opinion)
Technical exam for a potential B737NG F/O with little or no Jet time? I'd say that makes perfect sense. Why? Because the Canadian IATRA/SAMRA/SARON prepare you for SH*T.
Jet flying, whether or not you think it is, IS a BIG DEAL. So stop the denial. Glass airplanes are easy once you get to a certain comfort level. Getting there, like most things in life, takes time.
Just ask our Pinnacle Airlines friends who suffered the double engine failure at FL410. Sorry, I guess that's not possible.
If you have to ask whether or not the number of hours in your log book would be acceptable to either AC or WJ, then you're concerns are misplaced. What did you do whilst earning those hours? That's what the employers are curious to know. How comfortable will you be with the answer you give, given the opportunity?
Remember, you gotta know somebody on the inside. Because the HR department is misinformed and too lazy to read and understand your resume or to even determine the suitably qualified candidate. They're looking at total time too AND taking direction from some weenie who thinks you gotta know somebody. Pity.
The bottom line is this. If you exceed the minimum qualifications and experience, you SHOULD have a shot. Unless, your a single white anglo saxon male. Then, I'd say you should have stayed in school and made a better career choice.
Good luck to all. Whether you aspire to fly or to fly for Air Canada.
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bionic buzz.
Sorry, 73 to be exact. Seems like your coleagues are keeping it hush hush. What will you do to them if you know who they are? Has Clive intimidated them?
25% is based on about 400 pilots. If your roster is bigger than that, I appoligize for using outdated numbers. Anyway you slice it, it's significant, and judging by your reaction to an innocent thread, the damage to the WJ ego has already been done.
Sorry, 73 to be exact. Seems like your coleagues are keeping it hush hush. What will you do to them if you know who they are? Has Clive intimidated them?
25% is based on about 400 pilots. If your roster is bigger than that, I appoligize for using outdated numbers. Anyway you slice it, it's significant, and judging by your reaction to an innocent thread, the damage to the WJ ego has already been done.
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And you would know this, exactly how? Are you in charge of resumes?
There are more than 600 pilots on the WJ list, resulting in a modest error on your part of more than 50%.
Your comment about intimidation shows me that you have drunk deeply of the AC Kool-aid, and if I may say, is very small-minded of you. I have never seen any intimdation at WestJet. Do you have a specific incedent you could relate?
If you don't like the program, you can leave. There is no indentured slavery, like a $30,000 training bond. I understand some of your new recruits never even finished line indoc. Ask them if they were hassled on the way out.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who would claim that.
There are more than 600 pilots on the WJ list, resulting in a modest error on your part of more than 50%.
Your comment about intimidation shows me that you have drunk deeply of the AC Kool-aid, and if I may say, is very small-minded of you. I have never seen any intimdation at WestJet. Do you have a specific incedent you could relate?
If you don't like the program, you can leave. There is no indentured slavery, like a $30,000 training bond. I understand some of your new recruits never even finished line indoc. Ask them if they were hassled on the way out.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who would claim that.
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I'm not in charge of resumes, but I just flew with one of the few who is. Pretty reliable I'd say. Like I said, regardless of the exact numbers, you can't tell me 73 is insignificant. When 73 AC guys send you their resumes, I'll take back everything I've said. Keep me posted, ok? And hey, better the AC kool-aid than the WJ donkey piss. As for the rest of your comments, I have no idea where you're going with it and I'm afraid I am not privy to the gossip you have.
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Instead of splitting hairs on staff levels, wonder how many at AC has their resume in at WJ these days. I think we all know the answer is zero. Brucelee, you are right - the good days at WJ are over and that is why the short fuses on the 'net lately. AC does have a bit of an attitude, but c'mon, nothing like the junk WJ guys thrive in. WJ is more like Jazz than mainline but the pilots there think they're like Cathay. Junior WJ guys are finally learning how to do the math on stocks, seeing the upgrade picture, and realizing what the real deal is.
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Many thanks for your kind response.
For a moment there, I was worried that you had some, wach-ya-call-it, credibility.
Thank-you for removing all doubt.
I suspect you are right about one thing, b612. There is probably not one application from AC mainline in the WJ file right now.
If you think I have a short fuse, that\'s your opinion and you are entitled to it. I do disagree with your statement about the good days being gone at WestJet. It is a funny business, and things are not always what they appear to be. I remember AC painting a bright future just around the corner.
In December 2002.
I have also listened for years as AC people have been cranking out that worn old tune "It\'s all over for WestJet".
Catchy, but it has not been true in the past, and not true now, in my opinion.
For a moment there, I was worried that you had some, wach-ya-call-it, credibility.
Thank-you for removing all doubt.
I suspect you are right about one thing, b612. There is probably not one application from AC mainline in the WJ file right now.
If you think I have a short fuse, that\'s your opinion and you are entitled to it. I do disagree with your statement about the good days being gone at WestJet. It is a funny business, and things are not always what they appear to be. I remember AC painting a bright future just around the corner.
In December 2002.
I have also listened for years as AC people have been cranking out that worn old tune "It\'s all over for WestJet".
Catchy, but it has not been true in the past, and not true now, in my opinion.
Last edited by bionic buzzard; 12th Sep 2005 at 22:24.
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Reading this thread has brought up many good points. I think though at the end of the day the big picture is being missed here.
First off on the original question of WJ dropping its hours. They could if they wanted to but it is safe to say that there are more people out there with 4000 hours plus than WJ will have jobs in the next million years. The funny thing is many do or will want to work for them. Why? Because that is what they as induviduals want. Clear and simple.
I personally know a dozen or so folks that have the qualifications to get a job with AC but have never even applied. Why? They don't want to work for AC. The same could be said for a group of people who have never applied to WJ. West coast guys especially the YYC/YEG types like living in that part of the world. YVR types can't afford YVR so they suck it up and go to everyones favorite city, Toronto. 20 years later they are senior enough and can afford to go back! Family, friends, other business ventures, sports, weather, scenery, job satisfaction etc etc etc all play or at least should play a part in ones decisions on what at the end of the day is just a job.
I have not worked for either firm, have no loyalties nor any intention of working for either. I have mates at both carriers and for the ones that really enjoy flying and their jobs I will say this. They are happy and that is all that matters. I left the country to pursue my career a few years back because I did not like what I saw in the industry. Had a close friend ask me very recently was I coming back. My answer to him and much to his surprise was nah....See you on the golf course when we are done!
Those at AC who think you have the job of jobs you are wrong. Those at WJ who think the same you are wrong. Ask yourself only one thing. Am I happy?
Point clear?
WJ's mins are xxx hours and AC's mins are xxx blah bah blah. Supply in Canada wil ALWAYS out weigh demand so its a non issue. Apply to where you want to be, cross your fingers and just get on with it.
First off on the original question of WJ dropping its hours. They could if they wanted to but it is safe to say that there are more people out there with 4000 hours plus than WJ will have jobs in the next million years. The funny thing is many do or will want to work for them. Why? Because that is what they as induviduals want. Clear and simple.
I personally know a dozen or so folks that have the qualifications to get a job with AC but have never even applied. Why? They don't want to work for AC. The same could be said for a group of people who have never applied to WJ. West coast guys especially the YYC/YEG types like living in that part of the world. YVR types can't afford YVR so they suck it up and go to everyones favorite city, Toronto. 20 years later they are senior enough and can afford to go back! Family, friends, other business ventures, sports, weather, scenery, job satisfaction etc etc etc all play or at least should play a part in ones decisions on what at the end of the day is just a job.
I have not worked for either firm, have no loyalties nor any intention of working for either. I have mates at both carriers and for the ones that really enjoy flying and their jobs I will say this. They are happy and that is all that matters. I left the country to pursue my career a few years back because I did not like what I saw in the industry. Had a close friend ask me very recently was I coming back. My answer to him and much to his surprise was nah....See you on the golf course when we are done!
Those at AC who think you have the job of jobs you are wrong. Those at WJ who think the same you are wrong. Ask yourself only one thing. Am I happy?
Point clear?
WJ's mins are xxx hours and AC's mins are xxx blah bah blah. Supply in Canada wil ALWAYS out weigh demand so its a non issue. Apply to where you want to be, cross your fingers and just get on with it.
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"Those at AC who think you have the job of jobs you are wrong. Those at WJ who think the same you are wrong. Ask yourself only one thing. Am I happy?
Point clear?"
I'll make my point as clear as I can to you. I AM HAPPY. When I decided to live in this country, there was one thing that was very clear to me. If I lived in Britain, I would whant to fly for BA. If I lived in Germany, I would want to fly for Lufthansa. In Canada, AC is what I have chosen. No regrets. Despite CCAA, a changed contract, reduction in wages etc. I am still in good shape and that's exactly the point. Even after all that degrading stuff, I'm still happy. A benefit of organized labour and working for a major I guess. As far as WJ goes, my view is that many egos were inflated there after 9/11 when flag carriers took a hit and the low cost phenomenon literaly took off. Pilots there became millionaires because their stocks whent balistic. Newspapers couldn't say enough good stuff about them. But just as we all knew, with time AC would survive and return to profitability. Others would have smoldered in the flames of CCAA. Looking ahead, there's much to be positive about in both companies. But at the end of the day, the benefits of the major carrier are unmatched. Period. For those who chose not to go to AC, I understand and admire your decision. For those who failed to get to AC, don't waist my time with your bitterness.
Point clear?"
I'll make my point as clear as I can to you. I AM HAPPY. When I decided to live in this country, there was one thing that was very clear to me. If I lived in Britain, I would whant to fly for BA. If I lived in Germany, I would want to fly for Lufthansa. In Canada, AC is what I have chosen. No regrets. Despite CCAA, a changed contract, reduction in wages etc. I am still in good shape and that's exactly the point. Even after all that degrading stuff, I'm still happy. A benefit of organized labour and working for a major I guess. As far as WJ goes, my view is that many egos were inflated there after 9/11 when flag carriers took a hit and the low cost phenomenon literaly took off. Pilots there became millionaires because their stocks whent balistic. Newspapers couldn't say enough good stuff about them. But just as we all knew, with time AC would survive and return to profitability. Others would have smoldered in the flames of CCAA. Looking ahead, there's much to be positive about in both companies. But at the end of the day, the benefits of the major carrier are unmatched. Period. For those who chose not to go to AC, I understand and admire your decision. For those who failed to get to AC, don't waist my time with your bitterness.
Last edited by brucelee; 13th Sep 2005 at 01:24.
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WestJet has no worries in as far as supply is concerned.
The current failure rate at the AC interviews over the last three
months has been just under 70%. I don't think anyone is
worried about where they're going to get their next pilot from.
The current failure rate at the AC interviews over the last three
months has been just under 70%. I don't think anyone is
worried about where they're going to get their next pilot from.
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Royalterrace.
Speaking of waisting my time.
Let me remind you that I brought up the number in response to sailor's comment about some pilots not considering a job at AC due to the degraded conditions. So I thought I would bring some reality into the picture, something I find myself doing alot of on this forum- that's all. No need for you to get sarcastic. In reality, I couldn't give a **** if just one or all 600 pilots at WJ came over to AC. I sure don't need them to tell how happy I am to be where I am. Nor do I need morons like you trying to tell you don't care. You've let your insecurity get in the way of your better judgement and made a stupid comment. I understand.
Speaking of waisting my time.
Let me remind you that I brought up the number in response to sailor's comment about some pilots not considering a job at AC due to the degraded conditions. So I thought I would bring some reality into the picture, something I find myself doing alot of on this forum- that's all. No need for you to get sarcastic. In reality, I couldn't give a **** if just one or all 600 pilots at WJ came over to AC. I sure don't need them to tell how happy I am to be where I am. Nor do I need morons like you trying to tell you don't care. You've let your insecurity get in the way of your better judgement and made a stupid comment. I understand.
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I hear the high failure rate is due in part to the medical. I heard something like 40 out of 70 ( hearsay) haven't passed the medical so far. Sounds a little high to me.
I recently went through the Cathay medical and it was hard and they had a couple of issues but requested further tests which cleared everything up. Nerves can really mess with some of the tests...especially BP.
At least they gave me a chance to clear things up and now I am off to CX in Nov.
Doesn't sound like AC is willing to do that. Kind of sad, especially since AC for many is the dream job for many Canadians.
I recently went through the Cathay medical and it was hard and they had a couple of issues but requested further tests which cleared everything up. Nerves can really mess with some of the tests...especially BP.
At least they gave me a chance to clear things up and now I am off to CX in Nov.
Doesn't sound like AC is willing to do that. Kind of sad, especially since AC for many is the dream job for many Canadians.
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Flaps10.
Once again I find myself having to defend AC from unfound rumors. The fact is that if your health problem can be managed or fixed with medication, you're in. I can tell you that first hand. On the other hand if the problem is long term, understandably the company will not take a chance on you, even though you hold a cat one medical. Some guys lost months of seniority having their course date delayed untill they could prove they can fix the problem. That's how it works. If the new hire canditates are being rejected, there must be some serious problems, or AC has made things tougher then they used to be.
royalterrace.
Time for you to do like the birds. You're still waisting our time.
Once again I find myself having to defend AC from unfound rumors. The fact is that if your health problem can be managed or fixed with medication, you're in. I can tell you that first hand. On the other hand if the problem is long term, understandably the company will not take a chance on you, even though you hold a cat one medical. Some guys lost months of seniority having their course date delayed untill they could prove they can fix the problem. That's how it works. If the new hire canditates are being rejected, there must be some serious problems, or AC has made things tougher then they used to be.
royalterrace.
Time for you to do like the birds. You're still waisting our time.
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"Westjet on the other hand don't have any new equipment arriving as far as we know and no real expansion to speak of. There-in lies the lack of panick on their side. Then again, who knows. They seem to be a real exclusive breed."
We are expanding our services to the Hawaiian Islands, charter's to Mexico from several cities in Canada, and have launched scheduled service to Las Vegas, and Ft. Myers recently.
Look for hiring of 200 Pilots for 2006. Interviews to resume in the New Year.