"Look after yourself and find another job, that is what I am going to do"

.. Stall Pusher I think you will find that:
a) There are very very few jobs around at the moment, ESPECIALLY in the airline industry
b) You will really struggle to find a job that is as well paid, with as good T&Cs, as BA cabin crew

believe me - I left BA recently :) !

Stall Pusher,

You are very right the company should have been on a money saving drive last year, april or may I was expecting, but nothink, how about just reducing cash until it suits, so a cunning plan can be put into action.

The plans a foot now would have been very hard to get in last april/may, now the bank managers are calling the company, things will be different.

Wobble to Plank,

A previous post of yours tells a truth, the CC do appear to of had a great job done by their unions in the past, they have maintained very good T+Cs and well done to them and the unions, but now the cash numbers are bad and the CC staff numbers are big, lots of pressure to have some fast track change now, good luck to the CC anyways.

Meetings talking about pensions seem to be getting up to speed now, am guessing a closed sign will be in the window by april 2010.

Think I will accept VR before they reduce the exit deal.

Indeed it will be. Almost no work and longer crew rest.

We sadly have all worked with the type of crew who have been described here negatively.

BA would be a much better airline without them, it is true their main aim is do as little for the customer as possible and then get to the crew bunks for as long as possible. I have seen them attempt this on some of the shorter sectors.

It is time for these people and the staunch BASSA supporters to realise the seriousness of the financial situation the company is in.

I find it hard to believe BASSA thinks there is no financial problems within BA or in the airline industry generally. They must be the only people on the planet with their heads in the sand as has been the case for decades.

"Yes Zebedee, you had to go because you were on an 11 month contract. Anyone would think you left on your own accord. Yes the airline industry is finished...all low cost and poverty pay. Why not earn more money and drive a taxi?"

Actually Stall Pusher I was not on an 11 month contract, I was a Cabin Crew Manager who had been with BA for 13 years and I CHOSE to take up BA's offer of voluntary redundancy.

I was just trying to point out that those who say "oh I'll just leave and get another job" might find things a bit difficult out there at the mo.

Stallpusher: I am sure that as you feel the way you do your departure from BA can not come soon enough for you, BA or its customers. There is no point in working for an employer- that's the person who pays you, gives you the allowances, nightstops, way of life etc,-if you so passionately hate them. If all those who find people and service a chore and interruption to their rest and leisure would now vote with their feet and leave so that the rest could get on and enjoy the life on offer and work with flexible enthusiasm so that at the end of the day they feel the satisfaction of having done well and, made a difference and given the passengers the feeling that it is good to fly BA.

Stall Pusher,

I though the present VR deal was upto a max of 75 weeks pay and poss going down to UK min, but you mention max is now at 52 weeks, where did this info come from ? thanks in adv.

Looks like all the managers were offered the 75 deal at Xmas, would expect the Pilots to get 75 in their cosy deal and other staff to get 52 at this time dropping to UK min when it suits the company, so when the company drops to the UK min, all the bottom feeders will get the IVR, some could say this is not very fair, life can be very unfair can't it !!!

Is the current Voluntary Redundancy offer to us Cabin Crew only available subject to successful conclusion of talks with the unions?

Joetom

And you would be wrong to expect that.

Pilot VR offer is two weeks' basic pay, per year served, capped at 52 weeks.


From the Flight Ops, BALPA and the People Dept, in their various letters to me.


Regards

Bellerophon

ba and project columbus 111
 

andyisnyname,

without wishing to be rude - i am surprised that you have not worked out the answer yet.

of course it is dependant on a successful outcome of the talks between ba and unions.

it is also dependant on the poll put out by bassa to guage opinion on the issues which are in the talks.
willie will be asking the unions for an answer by 30th june - so people need to have completed the poll.

i also understand that the closing date for the poll is either today or tomorrow.

are you cabin crew? i seem to be flying with a lot of people who, seemingly, have their heads firmly buried in the sand.

Joetom,

All mentioned in the message sent out by BF. It says "52 weeks basic maximum..."

Of course it will be based after decision with the TU's.

Slan22, yes I am Crew, and that backs up what I thought the deal was. Was chatting with one of my friends this morning. She thought she could take the offer, and then happily vote for a strike. I suggested she would be shooting herself in the foot is she did a strike vote, she was adamant that she was right. She couldnt understand that a rejection of any deal would end the offer of Voluntary Redundancy and bring on Compulsory Redundancy, using a criteria of the employers choosing.......and she has frequently been "sick" during Wimbledon etc.

There are sooooo many Cabin Crew out there with their heads well and truly buried in the sand.

.............and sadly they aren't getting the truthfull information they deserve from their Union.

There's a great little book called "Who moved my cheese ?" - by Dr Spenceer Johnson
In this case BASSA could be likened to Hem; and just like Hem they haven't realised all the cheese truly has run out and its not coming back.

Stall Pusher - you're the one who needs to get real :mad:

Just read this on the BBC news web site and felt it had some relevance -

BBC NEWS | Business | BA asks staff to work for nothing

Mike Emmott of the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD).

I just heard the piece on Radio 4's 6 o'clock news, complete with apparent negative quotes from baggage handlers and cabin crew.

..........some people just don't want to remain in employment!!

They didn't cover the CAA data showing that we costs twice as much as Virgin thankfully.

Here's some more breaking news for you guys; unless you improve your game significantly BA will be in real problems. As SLF I've just done 5 sectors with CX in 10 days and their service completely outshines BA. When I go back to flying business class 20+ times a year in a couple of months time BA = NO WAY.

Wake Up guys if you want to keep your jobs...

Originally quote by Stallpusher:
Stallpusher, the only misplaced loyalties about at the moment are those to BASSA. However, judging from the strength of momentum gathering now on here and elsewhere, I believe that loyalty may be waning.:D

Perhaps you are planning on VR - but as Andy pointed out you will not be able to take VR AND strike. The deal will be off.

As for finding another job, I wish you luck. Your pseudonym may well become a self-fulfilling prophecy!

ba and project columbus 111
 

Just out of interest, what has BASSA/CC89 said about the consequences on the morning of 1st July if they don't achieve a deal by midnight 30th June?

Walsh does not want to destroy the company, intending to restart it with no liabilities. Clever though that might seem, it would be not only logistically impossible, but unfinancable, an illegal destruction of current shareholder value (what is left of it), and impractical from the AOC / slot aspect (which is the only value that BA has remaining).

BA is failing - despite many great people - as there remain too many hangers-on, and too many unwilling to enhance customer service.

It is not a question of what is negotiated, but a matter of providing the best customer service in the face of all competition out there, at the most economical price.

Sadly, that is lacking, and despite the efforts of many, the company may fail due to those few.

It seems wildly optimistic to suggest that as the economy will rebound (eventually it will), that BA will return to profitability to be shared in by all.

- (a) the return on capital belongs to the shareholders who put up risk capital, not to the employees who operate in a job market and risk no capital in doing their job
- (b) many good companies have been outrun by recessions
- (c) it does not solve the question of complexity to contracts, requiring more than the average number of accountants, bookkeepers and operations staff to support the patchwork of agreements
- (d) the competition is not standing still


I just wish to ram this one point down the throat of some posters on this thread. Unionism is not socialism. It is not protecting jobs in the economy, it does not raise pay across the economy and it does not help those most needy in society. These people remain shut out due to elimination of opportunity (2 new-contract staff could be employed in place of one on the eldest BA crew contracts).

Unionism of the type operated by BASSA and the RMT is the politics of special interests. It lowers employment levels by preventing companies from operating at market rates, lowering productivity to the economy and raising costs to the public - particularly in the case of a business that has a strong monopoly-type position over LHR slots.

The company belongs to shareholders, not staff. Staff are intrinsic to its success and should be motivated appropriately. Service should never be dictated though by union agreements, nor do extra "profits" belong to staff, unless the shareholders deem that success to be due to extraordinary effort deserving of bonuses.

The shareholders have little to show for their capital to date in BA as a public company - their returns are below the cost of capital (see FT Alphaville » Blog Archive » Airline cycles, redux)

If you are the best, the market will pay the best rate in the best job, so move elsewhere if that rate is available. If not, you are operating in a commodity market, and should think about getting some new skills.

The above may seem harsh, but this is the reality of a competitive capitalist market economy.

Stall pusher - some of your points...totally misinformed:

Google - DEAD CAT BOUNCE. Going down again already - fundamentals are dire.

re LCY-JFK - funded by Barclays Capital - reasonably well-known to be the case. BA therefore have nothing to lose by going ahead.


If you really want to participate in the upside - risk some money of your own and buy the shares!

I just wanna go back to the "BA get paid double what other airlines do" part of the thread
ive spent the last week talking to many of my friends from various other UK and euopean airlines and its interesting to find out that us "new contract" crew are not on as much as people think. Our basic is actually less than some low cost airlines.
I took a 5.5k drop in basic to leave my last airline as a senior grade to work at BA as a junior grade so im actually coming out with less a month, all be it for a better work life as im not selling everything onboard the aircraft including my soul.
I dont know where the 30k has come from, because looking at my last 2yrs worth of P60s... im far from the 29 or 30k mark.

"old contracts" are slightly different.. as we all know! :}

Channex101,

Do you last two P60's include all the cash the company give you ?

Channex
 

This has come up elsewhere and the trouble is the "average" figure used by the media is often the arithmetic "mean" (e.g. in Cabin Crews case the total CC salaries divided by total CC numbers) which can be skewed upwards by a few very high earners. More meaningful would be the "mode" figure - the most common salary.

There are a great many staff who are large shareholders too and have a vested interest in seeing the company survive. Don't be fooled that the small number of negative opinions on this thread represent the majority - they don't.

Channex101, the average figure that is getting bandied about comes from a data table published by the CAA.

The table is of the AVERAGE EXPENDITURE PER HEAD for the employer to employ the employee. The CAA has published this table annually from at least 1997. So, sadly the data is out there and it shows that the AVERAGE COST TO EMPLOY a cabin crew member at BA is £29900, and at Virgin it is £14400. (In 1997 for instance it was BA £17200, Virgin £12000.)

So your average pay packet will not show £29900. But is does cost BA twice as much to have us as it does Virgin. CSD's and senior pursers on the old contracts will skew those figures, as do all those managers employed to manage us. They don't come free!!

Look at our pilot colleagues, they have about a dozen managers to look after 3500 pilots. We must have hundreds looking after us........oh but we need it dont we 'cos we are touchy feely people?

And look again at the number of pilots who are on standby each day, it must be less than twenty to cover the entire operation. We have loads and loads of us, sitting on standby. That costs us!!

So, lets not strike. Lets let expensive CSD's and Pursers leave, if they wish, with a Voluntary Redundancy package. Lets alter our rules so that we can work a little harder, but more importantly, more efficiently. Lets do it so that we are less likely to require the use of standby's.

If we strike, there will be no Voluntary Redundancies, only Compulsory Redundancies and conditions and salaries imposed legally under "Some Other Substantial Reason" rules.

COME ON BASSA, SURELY YOU CAN NEGOTIATE THAT?

Re-Heat, excellent post!

Just to add, for the benefit of those who still can't see how a major multi-national airline can go bust!

Cash flow is king in this industry, the main reason being that any airline is dependent upon its suppliers for the continued smooth operation of its core business. A minimum amount of cash 'liquidity' is required to enable the company to access short term suppliers credit, eg. 30-45 day payment windows. Loss of liquidity results in either a draw down or a removal of this short term credit facility.

This leads to a loss of faith in the parent company and a requirement to pay 'up front' either by credit transfer or cash for all services. That means, catering, landing fees, ground handling services, hotels, navigation fees, ATC fees, fuel, ground transport etc. etc. etc. the list goes on.

As the company has financial problems already, the requirement to provide up-front cash for these services further exacerbates the problem leading to a major cash flow crisis. The company becomes unable to access competitive loan rates from banks or creditors instead having to rely on 'risk' rates which can be exorbitant! This further leads to loss of confidence by investors. Here we are talking about MAJOR investors, banks, investment companies, pension companies etc. who have millions of shares. If they start to sell then the downward spiral begins. The company's value drops, credit becomes more difficult and bookings dry up totally as consumer faith disappears. Small investors begin to sell before the share price plummets too far.

Eventually the money runs out totally and the company collapses with any material assets going to the receivers to offset investment losses.

Look closely at the last few months of Alitalia before their 'bailout' by Berlusconi.

This scenario is never far away for ANY airline even in the best of times.

Remember 'Civilisation is only ever three meals away from Anarchy.'

In fact, the money doesn't need to run out totally. For a company the size of BA, if the overall reserves reach about £500m, it's game over. This is the "liquidity" that wobble writes about. :eek:

Exactly - once the banking relationships, credit lines, and hedging relationships are terminated due to low liquidity, the decline only accelerates.

And the longer that the Trade Union groups take to come up with suitable agreements, the sooner the accelerating down the decline happens.

imastweardsothere

This is an even bigger problem than most people think. It is a double edged sword consisting of loss of forward booking confidence by the consumer leading to lost revenue and corporate loss of trust in the ability of the management team leading to a downgrade in the 'investibility' of BA stock. Both directly impinge the value of the BA shares thus reducing the overall worth of the company.

Our share price is trickling down at the moment due to corporate uncertainty over the restructuring package and its ability to sustain the business over the medium to long term. The militant, brash posturing of the unions in the face of the current employment environment is annoying the consumer.

The share price climbed on the back of the BALPA deal and is now dropping as the 30th June deadline arrives. The threat of IA could be the final straw that breaks the camels back. If the unions can wake up, smell the coffee and get on-board with the company then there is a possibility that such stabilising action will galvanise the city and banks into providing BA with a financial life line that it needs at a cost it can afford.

If not, then I fear we may be sliding ever quicker down the slippery slope to becoming the next General Motors.

WW will go through with his plans which includes less crew onboard. The offers for part-time and VR would also be withdrawn and instead CR takes action.

BASSA would probably react by sending out strike ballot paper! There is also a scheduled union meeting on July 6th.

Horse? Bolted? Door?

Pilot VR
 

Bellerophon, you tried to help clarify the pilot's VR deal, please see your below quote:



"Pilot VR offer is two weeks' basic pay, per year served, capped at 52 weeks."



You are nearly there. We were told that if we had completed 20yrs we would get 52wks basic pay. The top 500 senior pilots were to be sent out the VR proposal automatically. If you were junior to 500 you were able to contact flight ops and request a VR proposal to be sent to you. I am just below the 500 figure in seniority and have 20yrs service. For this reason I think it is fair to say that all "500" pilots would have been offered the 52wks.

Anyone below this would have had to have a formula applied to them as they were probably just below the "20 yrs" service. I do not know what formula was applied and you may be correct that it was 2 weeks pay per year served(?).

I am aware that some of the CC I have spoken to have felt that we were possibly offered a better VR deal than you are being offered. I do not know your full terms and conditions but I can confirm that our offer does not include allowances/flight pay, it is simply based on basic pay.

Hot rumour - BASSA reps are not turning up for all the meetings with the company! Doh!!

Mmmayday38

I think you'll find they are exactly the same as yours! ;)

You're correct in saying that, for some people, their offers vary slightly from the "two-weeks-per-year" formula that I posted in the interests of brevity, although I'm told that is the basis of the calculation. Part-timers benefit greatly in that no reduction is applied, 20 to 26 year pilots benefit slightly by receiving the maximum 52 weeks, whilst trainers, by my calculations, lose out slightly.

In passing, I can't help but notice that the management severance deal at Xmas was 3 weeks per year capped at 78 weeks, and, so I'm told, LGW ground staff were recently offered 4 weeks per year capped at 78 weeks.

I didn't have to request a quote - for some reason it arrived automatically - and I shall leave as soon as possible; but I'm sorry, although not altogether surprised, to learn you're thinking of leaving.

Best Regards

Bellerophon

Bassa Supporter
 

Just some other news: Willie Walsh's plan to have staff work for free has been condemned as "illegal" today by Yvette Cooper, the Minister for Work and Pensions.

Any savings from the BALPA deal have been lost as passengers book on rival airlines due to all the bad publicity from BA management, scaremongering its staff over the airlines financial position.

Is British Airways trading whilst insolvent?

Bassa Supporter
 

"WW will go through with his plans which includes less crew onboard. The offers for part-time and VR would also be withdrawn and instead CR takes action.

BASSA would probably react by sending out strike ballot paper! There is also a scheduled union meeting on July 6th."

Who gives you the authority to make statements like this NUIGINI? You do not know. It is an opinion, but you write it as if it is fact.