Also, considering Lizanne is supposed to be "negotiating", she's spending a hell of a lot of time on Bassa forum and CF.... not saying much at all...

One person has asked (on CF) for the reason why details are not revealed of the latest instalment, but is being ignored by everyone. A very valid question IMO.

Gg

And don't forget GG she also failed to tell us about the productivity changed that the pilots have to make, despite being given the document just after the pilots.

I think Lizanne Malone represents Lizanne Malone......and no-one else.

I've refrained from posting on here since I am one of those pesky pilots or as some crew call us Flight Deck.

Your union is telling you lies and withholding information to suit their needs.
This is not a union that represents you, it represents itself and a core of hardliners who don't give a monkey's about service standards or love for the job.
To be honest I don't even begrudge salaries paid. What I do find outrageous are all the ancillary agreements.

Tear up some archaic working practices (one down payments / 2 local nights off after a div). It will save millions of pounds for no change to your working lives whatsoever.

Get into a dialogue with the company. Do some concessions on pay but make sure that most savings come from those areas that in reality don't impinge on your bottom line that much

Get a proper bidding system in return that removes the cheating from the game as it stands.
Also get an hourly rate that works so you don't lose out any month that you are not on a high box payment sector.

And start trusting the guys who you fly with.
No one wishes you ill health/poor pay/no life. My wife is a WW purser after all.
But start looking at the world around you.

BA cannot afford this. Fight for what is yours when times are good, negotiate when times are bad. It will be forced upon you otherwise and the result will be worse for you all.

It's a darned shame it has come to this. I don't wish for anyone to lose their jobs/home and financial security.

Andyismyname

Me too. (Must be quite a few of us now!).

Just to remind you (in case you haven't already done so) to also advise BA Pay Services to stop the deduction from your salary.

Are people not entitled to different opinions? If you have a different opinion you will be accused of being part of management. Myself, Andy and GlamGirl are apparently stabbing everybody else in the back by every post we make. I am sorry that they feel that way but I am actually willing to make a change to save my job. I would also love to go part-time but I fear that these offers made to us crew will be snatched away from us because they can't come to an agreement with the TU:s.

I will never make a post on CF after having read what they are saying. Why should I? I will be both shoot down and banned.

Nuigini,

I have no doubt as well that your name will be "leaked", so your working life would be hell. These people keep talking about being "bullied" by pilots and management, but they can't see how they are bullies themselves.

Gg

BASSA Supporter
 

There is an unbelievable amount of bigotry here in this thread and PPRUNE's very own Lord Haw Haw does not know what he is talking about. The countdown to the 30th means nothing, because nothing will be agreed by then.

Walsh is playing brinkmanship and has held back from giving BASSA his impositions, so as to create further pressure on negotiations. It has all been seen before.

The reason BA crew are not posting here is that it is a lost cause dealing with such envy and jealosy from the flight crew. What is the personal motive for such vindictiveness towards BA cabin crew and their union?

Some posts here have clearly no idea BASSA or the Chair of the union is doing or saying. In fact you don't know anything about what is going on between BA and BASSA. Your posts are pure fantasy

If the negotiations fail, the BALPA deal goes too. Walsh has been far too generous with BA pilots, yet he is bullying a mainly female workforce. This looks so bad in the media. So hopefully the BALPA deal will be ripped up and the pilots will have to contribute a fair share towards Willie's "Fight For Survival". I would suggest at least a 5% cut in pay permanently which they could well afford. Pilots need to be paid the market rate, BA can no longer afford to subsidise their extravagant lifestyles. I think most people would agree that £70,000 is quite enough reward for a Captain.

As far as people resigning from BASSA: first of all good riddance to anyone that does not support the union, we don't want you, secondly more than 100 crew have joined the BASSA in the last two weeks. Actually the people here who say they have resigned, actually haven't. So why say you have?

AMICUS/89 membership is less than 700 and there are over 14,000 cabin crew in BA. There are not many people who do not belong to either union

PiB,

You do an amazing impression of an ostrich, you really do.

You have it in for flight crew for whatever reason (as do a lot of cc), and you've obviously got a problem with their pay, considering the difference in job/skill/pressure etc. Also, they are paid market rate, believe it or not.

Some CSD's are paid more than pilots - is that fair? Especially after they forked out £80k or so for their licence.

I know I'll be accused of being management/flight deck floozie or whatever, but I can't take you seriously, I'm afraid, as you're posting such rubbish.

Gg

How can having an outside view on CC t's & c's and then having an opinion based upon them be considered bullying?

Oh, I forgot, some members of the fraternity consider anything that disagrees with their viewpoint bullying!

So, to take such a viewpoint to an extreme, the BASSA negotiating team have failed to reveal that they knew about the deal done by BALPA and then proceeded to claim they knew nothing about it?

They have failed to communicate to their members the depth of problems facing their community along with the possible actions needed to remedy the fact. They have failed to take into account a deadline that could possibly preclude, their members who wish to, taking a voluntary redundancy package.

The are so condescending that they can't be bothered to communicate the companies demands to those very people who are about to be affected by them.

They claim anyone who disagrees with the BASSA stance is idiotic, deluded or bullied? What chance does that give them in negotiations with seasoned BA negotiators?

How long will it be before UNITE has to step in again and give BASSA a spanking and tell them to finally grow up and start representing their membership not just the top 200 who can cherry pick the best paying trips and commute to live wherever they wish in the world.

Over to BASSA then for the answers. Come on Lizanne we know you read this and then get someone to answer by proxy. Constantly BASSA have harped on that this is of no concern except to the Cabin Crew who it affects.

Wrong!

I would suggest that there are 25,000 odd other employees who are currently watching this travesty unfold before them and are wondering if their jobs hang on the actions of some complete idiots in BASSA.

Poof in Boots

My letter went in the post this morning actually.

Errr, no, it doesn't.

read the small print!

Sorry, remind me, what, exactly, have I got to be jealous over? Incredulous maybe, annoyed occasionally, jealous????? Never.

Hmm, bullying and sexism? Where exactly does that come from? Walsh has offered ALL departments the opportunity to negotiate, some have taken it other not. Failure to do so will result in imposition. Where is the bullying in that, it's business pure and simple.

Pilots are paid market rate. Fully benchmarked and compared to other SH/LH operators within the legacy sector, i.e. LH, Singapore, Emirates etc.

£70,000 for a Captain? Less than RYR or Easy for LH responsibility? Perhaps not, that would put a CSD on about £15,000 then.

This discussion is about the CC not pilots, well discussed and our deal stands whatever happens to yours.

Now, where was that jealousy?

Nice one though PiB, at least you had the balls to post your misguided rant.
:ok:

Poof in boots,

Sorry to spoil your little rant, flight crew are actually benchmarked to other airlines, facts can be obtained quite easily. For example an easyjet captain makes more than what you suggest. Surely you would argue you should earn more than easyjet cc, so does that not work for pilots?

The only ones that ar NOT benchmarked and are well above market rate are the more senior BA cc.

So replace Pilots with CC and you would be talking sense

BASSA Supporter
 

The negotiations are being conducted in private, so there will not be any information relased probably unitl the artificial deadline of the 30th has passed.

BASSA members will know the state of play before the big meeting on the 6th and then we will go from there.

BASSA are negotiating intelligently and we are confident of an elegant solution. Lord Haw Haw and his public schoolboy chums had better hope there is a successful outcome, otherwise it is back to the drawing board for BALPA.

On this forum you are supposed to play the ball, so I cannot pick out any specific individual for criticism. However it is quite worrying how one person in particular here is attacking BASSA in complete ignorance of the facts. The condescending diatribe really shows for all to see, that some pilots have too much time on their hands and need to get out more.

And now I've been threatened with physical violence...

How very mature.

Also, I'm apparantly WW in disguise, which I find very funny indeed.

Gg

I cannot stay quiet any longer.

Glamgirl. Check your history. LHR crew did not allow the creation of SFG. Nor did LHR/BASSA careless what happened at LGW. 1) LHR crew were not invited to vote on the creation of SFG. 2) BASSA was not opposed to SFG but asked its' members at LGW to vote no whilst a better deal was negotiated. LGW crew voted for the deal they got. If it is worse than LHR it is because they accepted it, nothing to do with LHR crews, nor for that matter the old regional crews. I was based at MAN at the creation of SFG and wasn't given a vote either. So, stop using this outdated mantra as a tool for division or revenge. It isn't accurate and it isn't helpful.

Who here can tell me that BASSA and indeed AMICUS are not negotiating? Is it a fact or hearsay? Quote from a business briefing by a BA manager on 24/06/09.

We have limited scope for cost reductions in IFCE as employment costs take up 99% of our budget
Since February, we have been in talks with the unions, which continue as we speak. There is a communications blackout during this time, which is why we’re not updating you on progress.

PC767,

I've tried to explain this to you plenty of times by now.

The majority of the "yes" vote to Single Fleet was by WWLGW who seen an easy way out of LGW onto WWLHR.

Bassa arranged a max 12.5 hour rostered duty for long haul ex LGW to protect their operation on WWLHR.

Bassa offered the company 9p per hour instead of breakfast down route.

That's just a couple of issues.

However, I haven't brought this up for a long long time, so why do you feel the need to do so now?

All I've been saying here is that something's got to give, and fast. You cannot justify the amount of payments, such as destination payments (to most of those destinations), diversion payment etc. Neither can the 2 local nights after diversion due to disruption be justified, when it leaves thousands of passengers stranded.

My whole issue with this thing is that people don't think for themselves and they don't do any research, but takes Bassa's word for everything. Especially dangerous, considering they're not painting the full picture to you. Do you not want to know why Lizanne is not bothering to tell you what the latest offer is? It would trouble me a great deal if the head of the union, so to speak didn't do this.

Head out of clouds asap please.

Gg

Ps. Do you think it's acceptable to threaten fellow crew with physical violence?

BASSA Supporter
 

Gg. Who has threatened you? Where?

Why don't you finish what you are saying?

Are you trying to say that your views are completely at odds with the majority of crew which has caused a reaction?

GG has been threathened on CF! If you have access to it you should be able to find it easily. This is EXACTLY what you get for having a different opinion.

PiB,

I've been threatened on the CF. Not that anyone knows who I am, but that's not the point. It's unacceptable.

I think a lot of crew would agree with me, at least in part, but don't look/post either here or CF. The people on CF are unable to see another point of view and the validity behind it. Therefore shout out the people they don't agree with.

Gg

Ps. Pip, keep guessing, you're far off the mark

PC767,

Most of the crew at LGW WW were pro LGW SF to be introduced because most, if not all, did a runner to LHR WW.

The reason the Chairperson of BASSA has not told members what the details of the proposals are, is because the proposals belong to BA and if required they should let crew know what they are. But, as has been show in my earlier thread, there is a communications blackout. Both sides are adhering to this and where information is disclosed, it is with the agreement of all parties.

This doesn't not imply that BASSA have their heads in the sand or the clouds or any other overused cliche locations. Nor does it mean that they are not negotiating. Nor does it mean that all BASSA can say is NO.

I've returned to pages of drivel and subjective argument. Everybody seems privy to facts that I, and other cabin crew are not. I haven't a clue what is being said behind closed doors. I'm jealous that you lot do. I only know if talks are progressing or stalling. The rest is drivel.

PC767, Pib et al,

It would seem from the missives your unions are sending out that the negotiations are not running either well nor intelligently. 'first shocked then angry'?, 'Won't bore you with the Nitty Gritty'?

Add to that the time frame available to you and I would suggest that the unions have left it too late for too long.

As to the BALPA deal, if you could be bothered to either read or understand the small print it states that the BALPA agreement will only be activated when all other departments cost savings targets have been achieved. Thus, if you agree a deal, which I hope you do for the sake of your members, or get savings imposed along with all the tiresome BASSA tub thumping that will involve, then BAPLA will implement our cost savings.

Negotiations since February? I depends upon your definition of negotiation? I would suggest that the 'no, no, no, now whats the question?' approach coupled with the schoolchild 'but why should we give up anything when they haven't given up anything' is not the art of skilled, intelligent negotiation. Your difficulties in this stem from your inability to negotiate in the past.

Now, stop ranting about how other, already 'leaned' (read no ridiculous bonus payments etc.) departments have managed to achieve their negotiations by the deadline and concentrate on getting a good deal for your members without the childish name calling.

plank.

Come on, give us the nitty gritty. Just what has been said in those negotiations. Have you got the minutes? Were you there?

Or is this just more opinionated drivel. You are spouting the same old rhetoric, and I can find no other reason then, because you hate cabin crew/Bassa.

And the document I quote from is from a BA manager. BA state that negotiations have been in place since february, so perhaps you should not be asking bassa members what they mean by negotiations, but should redirect your question at BA IfCE management.

Lots of huffing and puffing:eek::eek:


GG
It must be the BASSA way, a good friend of mine was called up to a Hotel on The Bath Road the other day to provide some figures for "team BA" she witnessed BASSAs best negotiators threatening to kick each others heads in as she arrived in the car park:eek:


It seems that not only BASSA and BA are a jumbo jet apart, but even some of their finest can't see eye to eye:ooh::ouch:

Pib,

Sigh.....

Name calling? Rant? Hardly, just trying to get someone who is a BASSA supporter to explain the rational behind the BASSA negotiating mantra. The resort of name calling has never entered my posts, just my opinion on how BASSA have failed, constantly to represent their members.

PC767

Now, sorry, but where have you dragged this drivel up from? At no point have I ever had anything against CC. In fact, if you could be bothered to re-read back you will find that I have alot of respect for the Cabin Crew I work with. That will never change. As to BASSA, I find it difficult to have any respect for an organisation that proclaims to protect its members wishes whilst consistently withholding information from them and not involving the core membership group in decision making that affects them all.

Even on this board here we have seen CC who would jump at the chance of VR but, by heel dragging and obstructiveness it would seem that that opportunity is about to go. Unless BASSA manage to pull a rabbit out of a hat before the 30th. Somehow I doubt it but, hey, maybe.

My main point is that you (BASSA) still have some sort of misguided idea that the company is not in trouble. BASSA seem to think that the removal of WW will result in the land of milk and honey returning and all will be well again in BASSA land. To use the words of Alan Sugar, 'Ain't gonna happen'. The 'nitty gritty' of what was Project Columbus and is now on the table before BASSA is well known. Fixed hourly rate, fixed flying pay, removal of 'credits', no more lunch, CAT or dinner payments. Fixed links, tours, reduction of standby crews, overall reduction of CC personnel by 2000 jobs (not heads, jobs equating to 3500-4000 redundancies) removal of discomfort allowances, telephone allowances, night allowance etc.

Not difficult to surmise really as it is exactly what the flight crew gave up years ago. But then we are still too overpaid aren't we? We should give up everything we have so that BASSA doesn't have to use the word 'give'? Time to rationalise I'm afraid.

I have no gripes against the crew and I think BASSA has done them a grave disservice by allowing this situation to develop over the years.

Edit:

Forgot to add,

It seems that one can't have an opinion if it differs from the BASSA mantra as GlamGirl and Nuigini have sadly found out.

Now, what was that Bullying word again?

I'm sure that BA have been trying to negotiate but, from what I can gather it seems to have been a one sided negotiation with BASSA not present very often. Seem familiar?

I find it interesting that Bassa say they wont "bore you with the details"... Is this the same bassa that published a "leaked" project columbus document late on a friday night, as soon as they got it. the same that sent the lovely xmas (ww/grinch) news letter, and published the 31+ points to contract that BA wanted to change???.

My feeling is they are not saying anything now as they know they have backed the union and its members into a corner, from which they can not move and have nothing to say..

The meeting on the 6th will just be table banging about how bad BA is and how a strike is the only action now, after all Bassa, as they already know is dead:(

Apparantly BASSA were supposed to table their counter proposal this afternoon, but have not turned up to the meeting.

Willy is going to find this high court injunction a doddle.

Do not let a couple of idiots run this thread down. Some very reasoned responses by many. But what strikes me is that every time a question is asked by somebody the pro-BASSA's never ever come back with an answer???

Please answer me this:

Why has the complete deal between BALPA and BA that was given to your Leadership not been given out to its members. Why only half truths and snippets of the whole plan? Thereby giving the impression that we are not giving up anything at all!

Because having done my sums my paycut is just under 5%. A lot more than BASSA makes it out to be.

I cannot understand why such dishonesty is serving anyone any good unless one had an agenda to mold crew into a particular thought pattern!

Seems some of the 'rubbish' has been moderated.

Whilst in the past I have thought the moderation was a bit 'fierce' I think it was very well judged in this case.

Thanks.

Perhap now we can carry on with a reasoned discussion without the vitriol.

Again, this should be asked directly to the Chairman herself but I would be surprised if she answers as she only seems to answer whatever suits her.

Some of the members don't seem to mind. Some of the members would ask "How high?" instead of "Why?" if they were told by BASSA to jump.

What I would really like to know is: do any of you BASSA bashers who seem to adore BA and WW so much want to work for free to save your beloved BA and earn points with the management? Are you among the 3000 staff who have offered to work for free?

And GlamGirl, how exactly have you been threatened or bullied by posters on CF? I see no evidence. Interesting in how in another post you mentioned to someone 'good luck on the dole queue.' Again, you seem to be doing what you accuse BASSA members of doing...insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Actually, Virginia, BBC News reports the following: "Almost 7,000 British Airways staff have applied for voluntary pay cuts"

Seems that unlike BASSA, quite a few people actually want the airline to survive, so that it can pay them a salary in the future.

The difference between what GG/Nuigini and others on here do, is that they are open to views and debate the pertinent issues, instead of ignoring the issues and trying to undermine the credibility of the posters instead, as die-hard BASSA supporters seem to do.

It seems that Bassa have one aim in this conflict, and it has very little to do with the terms and conditions of its members. It's all about power.

Under previous leadership teams, Bassa has wielded the power, aided by senior IFS management who wanted their department to grow to have a disproportionate influence within the company. The union called the shots, because it suited all parties. Our two previous CEOs didn't have the nerve, in their respective financial crises, to take on a union that had become virtually unmanageable and so acceded to their demands and intransigence. Not only did BA management not achieve any significant changes to IFS' cost base but the status of CSDs and their influence on board was actually enhanced, increasing costs yet further.

WW was recruited to take BA into T5 and to make BA competitive. He recognised where the vast bulk of inefficiencies lay and recruited a team to achieve those cuts. His new IFCE management has changed the balance of power in the IFCE/Bassa relationship, and Bassa don't like it, because they've never experienced it before.

WW has the nerve to take this through because he can see the rewards for BA at the end of the process. Bassa are scared witless because they see that they won't be the ones deciding whether flights can depart one down, whether a crew can continue to destination after disruption, and management won't be kowtowing to their every demand.

This is all about power and influence, and Bassa's wounded pride and status should not be a reason for the negotiations to fail. They should be bringing realistic 21st century agreements into this modern 21st century company.

Once they accept that their position within the company is not going to be what it was, then maybe the reps will start doing what their members are wanting them to do - striking a deal, not dealing with strikes.

What about you Re-Heat? Do you even work for BA? If not I wonder why you are so concerned about BASSA.

Because the person who wrote on CF that she wanted to punch her in face changed her message!

It's not about "earning points with the management" should you apply for unpaid leave or work for free. It's not actually free work as you will still receive your meal allowances. Crew shouldn't say too much either about "work for free" as UPL has been given since last fall. What's the difference? That you actually go to work instead of being at home?

It might be hard for some of you to believe but there are actually some of us in great concern of our jobs. If an agreement is not reached before the deadline the !!!! will hit the fan and many innocent crew will be affected by the arrogance and selfishness of others. Why is that hard to understand?

I haven't applied to work for free but for part-time. I am convinced that these offers will be taken away from us if an agreement isn't reached until Tuesday.

Why are you concerned Virginia? I would have thought that you had handed in your resignation?

Well I don't see any evidence of that now.

Wow....

I'm joining the debate late on but here goes:

Virginia,
If you are a CF member you'll see that Gg was threatened... but the post was modified as apparently it was 'beneath' the original poster to make such statements!!!!! that makes it ok now eh?

I'm a pilot: I do not 'hate' crew or 'hate' BASSA etc. However I cannot say the same about my CC colleagues about us. Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of the crew I work with are great and I have had some great trips - even recently. What does get me down, is that if you do have an 'alternative' view to the BASSA mantra then suddenly you are the 'centre of anger'!!! how childish!!!!

My wife is crew, and everyday she comes home with a new story of how 'the rich pilots are robbing the poor CC'. When she tells the crew involved that she has seen the BALPA document and that we are in fact taking a pay cut etc she gets accused of fibbing etc........

On my trips when I'm asked to join the discussion (I call it pilot baiting: get a pilot to talk about what HE/SHE thinks about the CC situation, then write on CF/BASSA forum how brave you are for taking on a 'Nigel') all I do know is state fact (which apparently are different to BASSA FACT!)

All I ask now is: why has BASSA not shown you the actually BALPA agreement? you know the one my reps gave to your union before they gave it to me?

One reply was: BASSA have not got BALPAs 'private' document..........

so I gave the CC mine.....

still apparently I was a 'crew hater'

The best discussion was with a purser who said she would rather bankrupt the company then give in as she couldn't afford the BA proposals.....

I did mention that she would then not have a job.... but apparently that's better the BA 'winning'

never mind

I can't be bothered anymore!!!


SS

Re-Heat, I suggest that you get your facts right before posting.

It's 800 out of 40,000 who have volunteered to work for free. 4000 have taken unpaid LEAVE and 1,400 are to work part-time. The latter 2 are to benefit the workers themselves, especially amongst cabin crew many want part-time and many are happy to take unpaid leave. Working for free is different matter entirely.

BASSA Supporter
 

Yes Classic, and Walsh had the nerve to take on the unions at Aer Lingus, threatening them with doom and gloom after 9/11, got the concessions he wanted and then in 2003-04 the company made a huge profit on the back of their financial sacrifices.

However it has been downhill ever since.

He is not going to ransack BA's staff in the same manner. We WILL take him on and it will be a fight to the death. So the negotiations had better be constructive, sincere, meaningful and successful.