As a former BA employee on the "11 month temp" contract, I have been following this thread/debate with interest. I finished my contract almost 2 months ago and since then have had a few interviews for other (lowcost) airlines, but i'm still unemployed. As much as I want to get back into full time employment, preferably with another full service, long haul, airline, as quickly as possible. I am tempted to sit back and wait and see what happens with BA (god knows how long i'll be waiting tho.....!)

I'm intrigued to see what this 'new fleet' will be. I'm fed up of all the rumours and hatred flying around over it, particularly over at the BASSA forum (scab fleet etc....) when nobody actually knows what it will ultimately entail. Yes, i know people keep saying it will run to scheme, minimum rest etc, but lets wait and see something in writing ok.

Yes, I did join BASSA during my time, however, if I went back to BA I think I could probably put my £15 a month to better use. They certainly don't wish to look after the majority of the crew (I also find it laughable that the head of the union commutes from LA, if that's not a sign that certain crew are over paid I don't know what is....). Having worked for BA, i find that BASSA just like to send out random flyers every now and then that don't really tell you anything and are just designed to hype people up into a frenzy! They are just as bad, if not worse than, the BA management! I'm all for protecting the current T&C's but the way that BASSA go about things, acting as if they run the airline and failing to negotiate anything, I will not be surprised at all if Willie and Bill get there way.

Whatever the future holds for those of us back in the 'hold pool'/ex temps etc, I for one will be jumping at the chance to get back in with BA if offered a contract in the near (?) future because I want to work for BA, if I don't like it, i'll leave. In my opinion, the problem lies within the crew who have worked for BA for years and years, have no idea what life is like outside their little bubble and don't seem to understand what wages the rest of the working world earns. I can see exactly why the management want changes to be made and I do agree with a lot of them (not all...), I'm not sure that most BA Crew realise just how good they have it. Before I joined BA, I was earning half the money and doing twice the hours and had a lot more responsibility and work commitments. Joining BA was like going on one long holiday!

Good post Welshboy!

I miss flying with you temps! All of you were fab and you should have been kept on permanently!

JayPee
 

Interesting when you say that:

"Airlines like Virgin, AF/KLM etc are not your major long-term threat. Ryanair is the model you need to look at, "

Absolutely - as we all know ( or obviously not) most passengers have now become incredibly price sensitive....couple that with the fact BA's shorthaul economy product (on board) is to be polite, pretty average compared with the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet and others, that costs of operating out of LHR are inevitably higher that operating out of the likes Lutonsted or Brimoge :ok: and IMHO BA shorthaul in it's present form us running out of time.

As for "Stall Pushers" comments about BALPA, the reps, and pilots rolling over I wonder which Union he/she is in?

Haha, thanks, i was expecting to get shot down in flames (altho there is time for that yet...).

I just want things to get sorted quickly for everybody, there are a lot of people both within BA and outside BA waiting on the outcome of these talks before deciding what to do next (ie, severance, part time etc.). Frustrating as it is, I for one can't rationally make my next job/career move until I now what BA's plans are.

Is that right Overstress? You have friends leaving BASSA for what? To throw themselves at the mercy of Walsh?

What a load of rubbish.

It is ony a few short months ago that Willie Walsh was on Question Time campaigning for a third runway at LHR. Why would he be doing that if he knew there was going to be a crisis, with the airline under imminent threat of going bust? Why did he not take action before? How could he get it so wrong? Why was capacity not cut BEFORE the summer schedule if things looked so dire? What has he been doing.....gone to sleep on the job?

So the UK is going to host the 2012 Olympics, but will have no national carrier? Why is money still being pumped into OpenSkies flying thirsty 757's with no passengers and no hope in sight of ever being proiftable. Only Willie Walsh could predict that 30 airlines are going to go bust in the recession, and then starts one himself! A business carrier like OS starts flying, when BA cannot fill the Club cabins on its mainline operation. Can anyone here make sense of that?

Somehow I don't believe that BA is going bust? Airlines like ALITALIA and OLYMPIC are still there, even SAS, yet Walsh predicts that BA will go bust before them? Doesn't say much about the quality of the Leadership Team at BA. Have they really painted the airline into this corner, that only screwing the T&C's of its employees will save the carrier from disaster? Such a reversal of fortune will eclipse even the mismanagement of ENRON.

It is not going to look good on Walsh's CV that he was the Captain at the helm when it hit the reef. If BA goes bust, he is finished too. I think he has more ambition than that.

However it may just be that the CEO of BA is just a cost cutter with no finesse to close the deal with IBERIA, or to steer the carrier through choppy waters without alienating most of his staff. Walsh got lucky at Aer Lingus and left just in time. Now there is nowhere to go.

It will be a interesting few weeks.

Stall Pusher
 

Flag Carrier for 2012? Virgin?

Yep, Olympic and Alitalia are still in existence- Ever heard of thinly disguised state aid?.....Do you honestly think the UK Government will bail out BA if it goes broke? Please tell me you are not betting the farm, your future and your T&Cs on state aid...

Get a grip of reality: the company is bleeding.

Companies all over the world are going bust and crew at BA are refusing to give away a couple of pounds because they believe the management is lying and using the recession as an excuse to change them.

As much as I would love to keep our terms and conditions, I can't see how it could be done under these circumstances. I would rather accept a change than be queuing at the Jobcentre.

I am sure Wiggy that if ALITALIA or OLYMPIC were receiving illegal state aid, the EU transport commissioner would have acted.

However the bald facts are they are still there, just like Air France would also never go bust.

What a national embarrassment after the shameful opening of T5, if BA ceased operations? Could Walsh really achieve the double?

Stall Pusher,

SAS is actually owned by the governments of Denmark, Norway and Sweden which makes a significant difference. All of these countries have been "forced" to pay huge amounts of money this year because of their lousy figures.

Stall Pusher,

Amazing, you have better oversight on the nefarious plans of the evil doer Willie Walsh than even the investors in the city have.

Cash is king, even if we add the 'nk' after the 'ba' the Government would not bail BA out. They can't even afford it. The German government worked tirelessly to ensure that Opel was covered before the transfer of ownership, what did our government do? Nothing. Now Mandy is trying to pick up the pieces! and LDV are going bust.

So, where will he steer the helm of BA according to BASSA? Have BASSA taken the time and effort to actually get into the books and determine, positively and thoroughly that WW is telling a pack of lies?

I think BASSA have a fairly large, overinflated opinion of themselves if they feel that all of the financial pain, the stock market hassle and the loss of pre-bookings is all in the name of spinning a yarn to get rid of the CC box payments and really we have a golden goose just waiting to lay in Waterworld.

Archetypal BASSA spin and nonsense. Will they still be telling their members that as the P45's hit the floor? 'Don't believe it, it's all smoke and mirrors, throw it in the bin, they didn't mean it!'?

Yes that is true about SAS being state funded. Only 7.4% is privately owned.

British Airways has to compete with a number of airlines in the EU, which would never be allowed to go bust by their governments....Italy, France, Greece, Spain.

Why should their employees enjoy secure employment and better T&C's than those offered by British carriers? This Labour government is happy to help out the banks (£bns in bail outs), car manufacturers (scrappage scheme) and the property market (no stamp duty for properties under £175,000), yet loads up the airlines with APD?

If BA is so rotten with old fashioned working practices and over paid management and employees, perhaps it should be allowed to go bust. How can the airline compete with other EU carriers that will always survive no matter what?

BALPA blinked too soon. How foolish their members will feel in two years time when BA is making record profits again, as it has time after time.

"British Airways has to compete with a number of airlines in the EU, which would never be allowed to go bust by their governments....Italy, France, Greece, Spain.

Why should their employees enjoy secure employment and better T&C's than those offered by British carriers"

Because, perhaps sadly, perhaps otherwise, UK plc has adopted the American way of doing business rather than the European Socialist way. I'm not saying that's right, but that's the way we do it.

As for BALPA blinking..the reps saw the Company figures. Look on the bright side - if BA is still around in two years in it's current form with your T&Cs untouched then you'll be able to afford to buy me a beer if we meet downroute.........

There is more to running a business than profit, profit and profit. Other EU governments recognise this whether it is cars, house building or running an airline. The middle classes are the engine of the economy. If there is a race to the bottom on T&C's just to maximise profitability, who will be able to afford to buy a new car, update the washing machine or buy your own place.

I do not believe that BA cabin crew in the future will only be able to afford public transport, using a laundromat, or living in a rented room whilst the company makes huge profits.

What sort of people will be attracted to a job like that?

Interesting that you state that BALPA blinked too soon and will feel foolish in the future when none of the details of the package have been released.

Suffice to say that a major pillar of the negotiations was the building in of a long term incentive package and also the fact that there will be no implementation until ALL other department cost savings have been achieved.

Still a short sighted blink? Perhaps not.

All that given I still agree that we seem to be in an employment life raft with a big hole in the side put there by our glorious New Labour Government. Whilst we in the UK industry labour (no pun intended) under the weight of public 'green' enmity and adverse Governmental tax pressure the rest of Europe scrap taxes and bail out airlines. Add to that the 'level playing field' of the American bankruptcy protection along with the conveniently forgotten 'Open Skies' part II, the opening of the Americas for 'free trade' and we seem to have gotten ourselves up a creek with no paddles.

The futures bright, the futures Orange! :}

Stall Pusher: I appreciate that you are a wind-up merchant but you pitch up on this forum and start calling me a liar?

I don't care for that much.

You carry on living in your bubble, you haven't got long until it bursts. :sad:

Why do I say you're in a bubble? maybe Well you tell me what you think BA is for? :ugh:

I'm going to chuck this link in before I retire for the night....

I-resign.com - Community - Dismissal for SOSR - Some Other Substatial Reason

Relevant to the current situation or not?

Wiggy
 

Actually, I thought "Stall Pushers" comments on Aer Lingus were the most illuminating in terms of failing to understand airline economics. EI remains a high cost airline even after several rounds of cutting and reorganisation. It remains highly unionised and relatively rigid in terms of work practices. It will run out of cash very soon unless air travel picks up again. They've just suspended a good proportion of their long haul flights for the duration of their summer timetable. What happens to staff not required as a result? I suspect they get paid a lot less, or nothing. Ryanair has few of these problems, certainly no shortage of cash yet, even though they are now having to pay more to attract staff. That's just because they are getting bigger.

Walsh may have his faults, and the T5 fiasco did reflect badly on him. However, he previously did a pretty good job in repositioning EI to compete with FR. He left because he was frustrated by a shareholder (the Irish government) that could not finance EI's clear need for investment in a new fleet, but would not divest the airline into private ownership where the necessary funds could be raised. The main point, though, is he knows the threat FR pose, and what has to be done to counter it. From what I can see, he's not exactly pushing to match FR, with things like 20 minute turnrounds on short haul for instance.

How about this as the ultimate nightmare for ALL BA staff, I'd suggest: FR bid for BA? Far-fetched? Well with €2 billion in the bank, FR could offer cash for BA and have change left over, though any bid would be stock or stock/some cash. Aer Lingus gave them some "practice" in corporate activity, something they'd not done before. Also, FR now know EXACTLY the parameters the EU will use to judge if a takeover is anti-competitive. The only problem the EU had with the FR/EI deal was the dominance of slots at DUB. Any FR/BA link would free up slots at LHR, so good for competition. Would FR do it? I doubt it. They're more likely to build long haul capability at Stansted, and use/grow their short haul network flying there to fill the planes. Then maybe roll out to their continental bases and do the same? Who knows? The EI thing was apparently a very opportunistic move, not something they'd planned for ages during the EI privatisation.

The point, though, is that there are worse things than BA's revised CC T&Cs I suspect, and FR is definitely in that category. Incidentally, I avoid FR if I can, even if I pay a bit more. I also avoid BA since I moved to Ireland. That's more to do with the dump of an airport you use as a base. LHR is a disgrace. I'm sure T5 is great if you fly in/transit/fly out from there, but having to transfer from Domestic T1 is a nightmare. And I've always had fantastic in-flight service from BA without any exception (and I was a Gold Card holder so no shortage of flights!). So CC may be hacked off with BA, but I have to say none ever took it out on the passengers, though some (pax) definitely deserved it!

The market will find the right rate.

Why are many thousands of hopefuls for a BA CC job apply?

At what point will this diminish to none or even reverse to people leaving in droves as the wages/allowances/perks are cut?

The right rate for the job is when an employer can fill the vacant positions with ease and at minimal cost.

If the wages/allowances/perks are too low to attract, then they have to improve. Quite simple really.

Yes Keel Beam, the same theory applies to Flight Crew. No doubt the market rate for a Captain will soon be £50,000 on an OpenSkies contract. I am sure there will be no shortage of takers.

You mention a good point Wobble regarding US carriers filing for Chapter 11, some of which have been in more than once and used the opportunity to uncompetitively reduce fares on international routes. Chapter 11 is a subsidy by proxy.

Even the Channel Tunnel's CEO Jacques Gounon sought a French style Chapter 11 under the auspices of the Paris Commercial Court and £4bn magically disappeared. EuroTunnel even had the nerve to say they made a profit in 2008-09!!!!! How they can do it when they cut frequency, fail to reduce fares and run empty trains is hard to fathom out.

British Airways does not have the option of Chapter 11 or the assistance of the Italian, French, Greek or Scandinavian goverments. This Labour government allowed Rover and LDV to go to the wall, where in France the same would never happen to Renault (25% owned by the French government), Citroen or Peugout.

Yes you might well bang your head on a wall Overstress. The attack on the T&C's of BA's employees is nothing to do with the recession, it would have happened anyway. It is a convenient foil for the BA LT. The financial state BA is alleged to be in, is entirely the responsibility if a dysfunctional management, as best exemplified by the T5 shambles.

I suppose the employees of Aer Lingus had their pay cut so that the airline would 'survive' and be more profitable.....now there is nothing to cut away. Just a pernicious ever downward spiral of parking up aircraft and laying off staff, with MOL circling, waiting to pick over the remains.

Even the BA pension fund deficit has grown after it was promised measures taken two years ago would sort the problem out. Whose fault is that? The employees?

Stall Pusher, you put forward some salient points. A few, however, are wide of the mark. There will always be disparity between flight crew rates of pay and operators. Differing airlines offer different rates of pay to attract the best pilots which results in cheaper training costs and a reduction in the insurance paid by the company. Add to that the inherent PR associated with a good safety record and you can see a collective benefit from attracting pilots to a company at 'the top of the tree'. As the training, experience and type qualification of pilots is a protracted, expensive and difficult route this is a well established migratory regime and one that is unlikely to change drastically.

Sadly Cabin Crew minimum training requirements and qualifications are somewhat easier to replicate in a short time scale.

As to the pension. Well, as the pension is based upon current stock market valuations and, as the world stock markets crashed out worse than Amy Winehouse at a crack party, I fail to see how the pension deficit could have done anything other than worsen. Couple that with the money grabbing antics of our lovely 'gone is boom and bust' Government and you can see that just about every other private final salary pension is in the same leaky boat. Sinking fast!

So Wobble, unpaid leave or part-time? You don't seem to have answered the question.

Stall Pusher, thanks for contributing.

Can you confirm that BASSA has had access to the same independent financial figures that BALPA has has access to, but has chosen not to share that advice with us members?

Could you explain why the noticeboard in T5 has the Times article saying Willie has got a pay rise, but not the article saying he is not taking the payrise?

The thing I find most frightening is that BASSA seem unable to comprehend that the world is in a recession/depression.

CTC - You won't find me on any front line supporting selfish cabin crew(thankfully I know not all are). I'll be out there doing my best to find another job after your actions put BA out of business.

If you think the rest of the company is going to support you, sorry you're very sadly mistaken. And you'll find out just how unpopular you are if you take this action to destroy the lives of all our colleagues. :=

Stall Pusher,

You are totally correct. A union should stand up for it's members. But, it seems that BASSA are only willing to stand up for the members that tow the line. They aren't interested in any member that doesn't agree with their stance and heaven help anyone that dares to question them and their ideals! That's not what a union is for.

You are also right that T&C's were on the agenda long before the recession. The difference now is that management can no longer afford to bury their heads in the sand at the first sign of resistance. There is no choice. Things have to change. If you think the figures have been made up or exaggerated, then you are sadly deluded.

This is not going to go away and the only chance for us is compromise and I mean real compromise. None of this "temporary solution" stuff either. Who would want to invest in a company that could be in exactly the same situation in one, two, possibly three years time? Yes the recession will eventually end, but who knows how the industry will look at the other end.

The BALPA deal ?

Let me take a wild guess from reading todays Mail on Sunday.

1/Pilots pay point 24 scale/increments will be slowed down a little and this will save cash in the short term.

2/Pilots will still be able to get to that great 24 scale/increment due NRD now 65 instead of 55.

3/Pilots taking VS will get good T+C's, just like all the managers who took the deal before xmas 2008, other staff will be be getting IVS with legal min T+C's.

4/Pilots continue to get that magic 17.5% increase in their Pen Pay being funded by the company/other staff.

5/Pilots still maintain their present deal inside pensions, as paying least in and getting most out.

May be a few other items like a smaller cheeseboard etc etc etc.

Appears BALPA have done their members a great service, just like they did when the pension changes were about in 2007.

Yes, good old socialism for the middle classes; screw those who actually need state assistance at the bottom of the pile.

That is why the European economies and a nepotistic, rotten collection of dated economies, lacking the dynamism of the Asian and South American countries who are in the process of overtaking them.

Joetom

Sorry but if you get your view of the world from the MoS then you will not be keeping up with the facts.

Anyway i thought this thread was about cabin crew terms, not pilots? :cool:

Joetom,

That's a lot of supposition from one very limited MoS article. Here's a thought, why not put the hysteria to one side and let's all see what today brings us when BALPA release the actual details of what's being proposed.

As for BASSA, well, words fail me, they don't represent the views of the membership, they try to impose their view on the membership. I love, in a perverse, depressing way, that many of our crew believe this is nothing more than an elaborate ruse to get them to change their terms and conditions. If WW is as blunt and aggressive as you claim him to be, why would he try and go through such a convoluted way of achieving this unless, and this is the non-BASSA bit, we maybe, just maybe, are neck deep in the poo and sinking fast.

Crew, as with all staff groups, need strong representation in a large company like BA, but the BASSA way is just not compatible with the modern world.

One final thought, as we know, the company can serve notice on all contracts of employment, and in such trading conditions the courts would, in all likelihood, come down on the side of the company. Of course, you could strike but were I a betting man, I'd imagine your 2000 headcount reduction would come from a large number of sackings. Of course, a tribunal might rule those illegal but as the law doesn't require the airline to re-hire those who were sacked in those circumstances, and the compensation is capped (I believe £30K) then it'd cost BA £60 million to achieve a permanent headcount reduction of 2000. And I'd guess that the composition of those 2000 might just be from the older contracts. Not saying it will happen but, it's a possibility.

I'm not sure why BASSA haven't had access to the books in the same way BALPA has but I'd guess that it's probably because the level of trust that exists between BA and BALPA simply isn't there with BASSA and the information involved is deeply commercially sensitive. As to why that trust isn't there, well, I'd argue that's a whole new thread in its' own right with errors on both sides.

Oh and one last thing, if we're going to have a debate, can we do just that and not simply come on gainsaying the alternative point of view without facts because it's not moving this on anywhere.

Flame away, warriors.

Joetom,

This made me chuckle. As the thorny subject of Voluntary Redundancy has been on the cards for some considerable time with respect to the top 500 seniority pilots the T's and C's associated have been set for the same period.

There was, indeed, a caveat attached to the application of VR which quite clearly stated that the conditions of VR were set and, if not taken, would never be as good again. You pays your money and takes your choice. You are complaining in a similar vein to someone who bought a television last year and then found it half price the next. Time is the motivator in this one.

Where did this little gem pop up from? This is about CC productivity but yet again we get mired into a 'but he's got more than I've got' playground argument. This has been explained many times before. Suffice to say that those who contribute less get less, simple truth rules of pension fund accumulation.

Hopefully the adult lead taken by BALPA will either galvanise BASSA into trying to achieve something similar for its membership or push them to the negotiating table to at least try and salvage some scraps from the mess they are in. The next week should be very interesting indeed.

Pinkaroo, I am deeply touched that you are so concerned over my personal position in this whole sorry mess. However, it is just that, my personal position, so stop digging.

Andy

My sympathies mate. I dont visit the BASSA forum anymore as a result of the one sided rhetoric and 'bullying' that goes on there.

I wish the union that sadly I am still a member of, would provide honest answers and honest information.

The world economy is in the poo. The country is in the poo. The airline is in deep poo. Only BASSA refuses to release information to its members.

I agree with the questions you have, "Why does the BASSA noticeboard in T5 have clippings about Willie Walsh's payrise, but not anything about his refusal to accept it"?

Has BASSA had access to the companies figures? If they have, why wont they release the information to the members? Why wont they deal honestly with their members?

It will be a huge turnaround and a monumental change of tack, but surely BASSA needs to negotiate the change, not have it driven through under SOSR. Lets face it the allowances system depicted above is a bit if a joke nowadays. But then again, peraps BASSA is as well.

Its not a talent or popularity contest, this isnt Big Brother or Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, this is events which are affecting real peoples lives.

Real people will lose jobs and homes.

Well said!!

wobble2plank
 

Apologies for thread creep but that statement is somewhat of an oversimplification in my opinion.

The statement is true if you are a member of the latest scheme (effectively money purchase). It is not necessarily true if you were a member of APS or NAPS. For both Flight Deck and Cabin Crew (and others) your final pension is loosely dependent on your final pay (with details too numerous to mention here).

So if you joined the airline as a check-in agent (in APS) and stayed for 30 years retiring as a check in agent (without any promotion) then your pension would be based upon your final salary with any increments. If you start as an F/O and stay as an F/O for say 15 years and then become a Captain for 15 years your pension will be based on your final salary as a Captain (PP24) although for 15 years your contributions would have been based on the salary of an F/O.

Same is true for Cabin Crew I might add who join as Main Crew but end up as a CSD.

I know at least two people who are still in the same grade on the ground as they were 38 years ago and it is folk like this who, to an extent, fund the additional benefits a lot of us enjoy.

I wish you all the best in emerging from the current mess relatively unscathed. Whilst I hold a healthy suspicion of anything that comes from the mouth of BA management it would seem to me that in truth these are difficult times for the airline and that something has to give.

I'm sure it has been looked at by all (hopefully BASSA also) but temporary concessions would be the route that I would have wished to see - however I suspect that BA are looking for more permanent solutions.


Regards
Exeng

Dear Moderator. Not sure which part of my last post you did not like. Sorry about that. SP


The point you have all missed is that things will get better/are getting better. Already the price of oil is rising and the FTSE has gained 15% since the beginning of the year. Walsh has got to hurry up screwing his workforce, otherwise by the time the cuts are made the airline will be in profit again! Obviously it would be as profitable as Luthansa is now (who have just awarded their cabin crew a pay rise and improvement in T&C's), if it wasn't for the disastrous fuel hedging positions we currently are tied to.

I am very surprised that the managers responsible for Fuel Hedging have not been dismissed or reprimanded, for virtually bankrupting British Airways. Mr Wals was very quick to sack Gareth Kirkwood and David Noyes over the T5 debacle. Why is he so selective with who he fires?

The problem for the cabin crew is that WW is not offering any hope. If sacrifice is made now, there will be no compensation later when the profits roll back in. Management will benefit through their bonus award package, but reductions in T&C's will stick forever. This is unacceptable.

BA management have a long history of incompetence. Under Bob Ayling's BEP savings of £42m were demanded. This is when the new low pay contracts were started which are now apparently too costly as well. However BA went and wasted £67m ( and much more than that probably) painting the aircraft tailfins in new ethnic desgins. Later as we all know, that decision was reversed and even more money was wasted painting them into the current 'Chatham' design. Once bitten, twice shy I am afraid.

Anyone would think BASSA have not even negotiated or offered a viable alternative, but they have. Unfortunately with Walsh it is his way or the highway. Confrontation is inevitable.

Stickpusher, welcome back. The price of oil rising is bad for an airline.

Why hasnt BASSA advised its members of the true state of the business.

We need to negotiate permanent salary cuts now to stop them being imposed under SOSR.

If we union negotiates cuts, the airline will go broke, looking at the cash burn v cash reserves, potentially by the New Year.

The payback later..............will be still having a job.

Bloomberg Article: US-Europe premium fare reductions
 

This is an interesting article that may impact your thoughts on BA's cost reduction plans and, indeed, its general business planning for the foreseeable future.

Basically, the article states that two US carriers (Delta and American) have reduced fares in Business Class by over 50%. Business Class to LHR for June is now under $2,000. How does that compare to BA CW?

Link to the full article below:

Delta, AMR See Revenue Vanish as New York Business Fares Tumble - Bloomberg.com

:ugh:If one thinks that prem pax are going to return and thus both the revenues and yields to the post credit crunch levels, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.:ugh:




Bankers, lawyers, M&A have all slashed there travel budgets, both slashing the pax count and the seats they travel in.

Were flying aircraft that are configured to carry Premium paying customer's - that no longer exist. There are many article on city boards stating that Prem travel will never return to the same levels that we have enjoyed for so many years.

Its simple - we have a fraction of the money coming in - but the same money going out. It 'ain't rocket science folks.

Please tell your BASAA reps to listen to reason. If you guys go on strike when the rest of us will be taking pain through pay cuts & productivity I honestly believe that you could bring the whole company down. If you don't believe this - start doing some INDEPENDENT research in the companies financial state. Stop listening to the broken record that is BASSA.

This time its for really folks - don't be a sheep and make your own independent mind up. :eek:

Andy. BA is not going bust. It will not be bust at the end of the year. We may have a different CEO by the end of the year, but the airline will still be there.

If BA really thought that premium travel was not coming back to previous levels, they would not be making the investment in the new First Class cabin. Crew are continuing to receive Premium training courses, so the upgrade for First must still be on the cards. First travel will recover. True there will not be so many bankers sitting in there, but there are a lot more millionaires around these days.

The blueprint for getting us through a difficult time is no different now than before. If there are too many empty seats, you simply have to cut capacity. BA have not done this quick enough and you have to ask yourself why? Before now First cabins have been closed and crew compliments reduced. Why has this not been done?

The reason is political. The plan was to only offer part time if you transfered to the new fleet. So far this year we have run with a surplus of cabin crew getting loads of 24hr av's, when unpaid leave, part time or VS should have been offered.

Only two 744's have been grounded this year, yet we are taking delivery of 4 new 777-2200ER's. New routes have stated to Saudi, extra service to JNB and new destinations are being added like Las Vegas, Maldives etc. Harldly the moves of an airline about to go bust.

If BA was in such a desperate state, OpenSKies would be grounded and the new LCY/JFK service shelved until the market improves. If you cannot fill the Club cabins in mainline from LHR to JFK, why start a new business only operation in competition with your own product? It does not make sense.

Suddenly there is a change of tack by IFCE. Events have overtaken the master plan and management are playing catch up with the situation. They are doing now what they should have done in January.

Because if BASSA has seen the figures and noticed that the management isn't using the recession as "an excuse to change the terms and conditions", their only argument would go flat as a pancake.

I suppose it's better for them to tell íts members that they haven't seen any of it.

I heard from one crew who had heard (these rumours) that BASSA will not negotiate until they have seen the books. Go figure.