Andyismyname,
You make many comments on here ..........
FYI - When the last set of serious negotiations were made in '97 there was basically some money left over in the pot due to the changes made, and these would re occur annually. It was decided to spend this amount by forming a destination payment on more arduous routes, and is the choice of the unions which routes are paid it.
Simple really.

CFC..............but didnt the dstination payments only apply to LHR routes? I thought that is why the MIA service which came up from LGW didnt attract the payment.

In the current climate can we justify it?

Maybe the money left in the pot was in LHR WW's pot..??

Yes, as we did our own bit of divide and conquer. So, do you think we can justify the destination payments, or the back- to-back payments, don't forget, that although we get a hotel room and allowances and a payment. I can't justify it! Not now!

It was twelve years ago the destination payment was introduced! Do you really think there is money left in this pot? I don't think so!

In my experience they are cutting down on the number of B2B because they aren't as cheap or effective as before. I have had a pretty fair share of Eastern Coast nighstops the last year.

Think about DFW and IAH that have come to LHR from LGW. They are both giving destination payments. At LGW they didn't receive it.

You're all missing the point.

The money left over was from changes to our agreements and was originally put onto arduous routes at both LHR & LGW. However with LGW going to SFLGW, all dest. payments are out of LHR only now. Its irrelevant if some routes were originally at LGW.
There has been more of these destinations recently and the 'pot' has been split more, hence the payment has dropped dramatically over recent years.

We're not getting anything extra - just monies that were owed to us from '97.

Calm down, I was trying to enlighten you about the destination payment.
I did say, twice, if you want a full indepth answer as to how it came about and why we still have it, go onto our in-house forum and I'm sure there's a few who could answer more fully than I.

I'm all for change,especially for the good of the company, but I've never heard any cabin get angry about being paid destination payments..!!!!

Any of your allowances you can't justify receiving, then please pass them on to Dreamflight, I'm sure they'll be very grateful...

Please remember that ALL of our payments have been fought hard for by our colleagues i.e. 3rd MBT on a transatlantic after a two week strike in 1971. Whether it be called 'destination', 'west coast' or whatever these are our payments and our form of income and I'm glad to see our representatives from both CC unions working hard to keep them.

Happy Flying!

CFC you have hit the nub of the problem on the head

Thats OK when the government of the day are picking up the tab, but 38years later restrictive practices like these have no place in a privately owned airline trying to compete on a global scale, with people that can do it better, quicker and for less money, your shinning example is why Cabin Crew now have a bulls eye on their back and Willie Walsh has a large bow and arrow:ok:

".............both unions working hard to keep them". I think they are pushing the proverbial up hill.

I fear that if we dont achieve a negotiated solution by the 30th, Willie will be able to say that because of the economic circumstances he has no option but to nullify our agreements, and impose our new working practices.

The future is ours to grasp, not to throw away.

I would still like to know how much money is left in this pot since 1997 or if the company is being forced to take the destination payment out of its own pocket. I still find it very hard to believe that there is any money left in it twelve years later when you think about the number of destinations and crew being owed to.

nuigini, pop along to the union offices, either one, next time you're in CRC.

They will be able to answer all your questions.

Each year there is money left in the pot. It was not just however much was in it when our pay was restructured.There is a similar amount left over each year.

Hellooooooo........... pop along to the union offices and you will be preached at. "Willie is telling lies", "everything is rosy" etc.

Look at the figures, average cost at BA £29000, average cost at Virgin £14000.

That is around £15000 per head, and there are around 13000 of us........do the maths, that is £195 million that could be saved.

There is no "money in the pot" for payments.

We need to negotiate permanent changes by the 30th, or they will be forced apon us, which will be very unpleasant.

I was talking about the destination payments, specifically....:ugh:

Right, that's me off from here for another few months....!

13, I was just trying to explain why I dont think there is any money left in the pot this time.

The pot has a serious leak.

PS. the dest. payments weren't negotiated in the '70s......

13

But what are saying, is that things negotiated in the past, be that in the 1970's or 1990's cannot change.

That is where you are fundamentally wrong - times have changed and a new set of basics need to be established for the 21st Century.

I would suggest that the complexity of the CC agreements is precisely because BASSA have refused to change the basics, and what you have is a 1960's contract with bolt ons from the 70's, 80's and 90's for BTB, telephone allowances, MBTR, early day report allowances, destination payments etc etc to say nothing about the restrictive practises of 2 local nights when disrupted in WW or 15/18 hours in SH after a 'long' day or not doing fixed links through LHR requiring numerous extra CC sitting around all day.

I would liken the CC agreements to a Microsoft Operating system, it is an elephant balanced on a pin, totally not fit for purpose in the 21st Century.

Rest assured, that if BASSA won't negotiate sensibly in the next fortnight, the elephant will be toppled and a new simpler structure imposed.

A vote for a strike = a vote for the dole.

Why not just contact UNITE - Bassa or Amicus for the facts rather than make it up as you go along.

Twice now the CC unions have met BA's requirements only to see the goalposts moved. Willie will not rest until he gets his own way.

Having been CC with BA for 30 years now and never really been union minded, I now can't wait for the ballot paper to drop on my mat to vote for strike.........and you will see me on the front line supporting my 14,000 colleagues (30,000 if the whole of Unite come out)!

I suspect most of your 14000 colleagues will be at work whilst you're on the front line. It's all well and good saying BA move the goalposts, but times change, and sadly whatever you, and indeed I, gave up at the last cost saving round we are now in a situation where BA could feasibly be looking at insolvency. Not either of our faults, but that's where we are. The current Unite proposals to BA were apparently somewhat optimistic with their sums, and also included not claiming a pay rise as a cost saving. I'm sure you can see why BA weren't impressed by that. Simply tinkering round the edges and trying to preserve outdated agreements by cutting rates for new entrants doesn't get close to delivering the efficiencies needed in the timeframe needed. BA don't need trickle-through savings from new starters when it only takes one old contract CSD to insist on his two local nights at Prestwick to scupper the operation.

CFC, Willie is after permanent change.

What permanent changes are you aware of that the unions have put forward and had rejected?

And what is you will be striking over? Surely the ballot paper would be accept or reject the proposal?

And of course, agreement needs to be done by the 30th, or it will be imposed.

I hate to bring politics into this, but well over 10 years ago a young Tony Blair managed to transform Labour into "New Labour". I feel that we need the same transformation. BASSA, which says NO and in this case will have things imposed on its members, or "NEW BASSA", which negotiates and controls its destiny.

So, NEW BASSA, a good idea? We only have 18 days.

Sadly if that is the attitude of our colleagues, and it is having witnessed it on mumerous occasions recently, they will get change. It will be change of employment status.

We need a new BASSA, and we need it fast.

Basing on what most crew feel I came home from a trip this morning and most of them were talking about going on a strike. It already began in the briefing room. Having said that there could have been crew as well far too scared saying otherwise because, as I have mentioned so many times, going against the stream and you are in for a tough fight.

I for one will definitely not be voting for a ballot. A strike will not be supported by any other department or the public that are actually paying our salaries. I will vote for the change.

CM Ummmm are you sure about your facts there? As I remember it not many did go on strike however there was a huge call in for people going sick which had far more of an impact on the operation.

This £29k being banded about as the average pay for a BA CC.
.
My question is, how much does the company want this to reduce by to be a happy ending ? % ??? anyone know !!!

Quote from Andyismyname

Yes - I think it's a great idea. I think it would definitely have alot of takers - can I be the first??:ok:

Nuigini is right - alot of people will be agreeing to the BASSA rhetoric in briefings etc out of sheer fear. If you are brave enough to venture onto to some of the other forums - it is really scary. They are literally baying for blood.:eek:

And Carnage you are absolutely right. Many vote for strike out of sheer ignorance, believing WW will turn around and say "Oh OK you win".:8 Two years ago people were near to tears the day before the potential strike with anxiety over what to do. Additionally, there are also a large number of "old contract, die hards" about to leave who may just want to go with a bang!!

Somehow somewhere we need to tap into the "I AM prepared to change" workforce amongst us. How and where is the question?

CFC - you have done your 30 years. Please can you allow the rest of us to do the same by voting NO for a strike?

And like Nuigini, I too will vote for change. PERMANENT change.:D

On the last part of this very long thread I posted the "new" contract LHR cabin crew basic salaries.. ie after 1997.
Amazingly not one person commented..why? mmm perhaps it kinda stopped the discussion of over paid cc? Yr 1 basic btw is £11,000

...and the allowances?

Here again BASSA has let down their members over the years. Unlike BALPA they have always gone down the allowance route rather than basic pay.

Commuters.......
 

At the risk of stating the obvious....is it not your choice where you live; not BA's?

Since you ask, including allowances, you clear about 1800 sterling once you've worked out how to bid. Hardly a fortune is it? CM, would you get out of bed for it, year after year?
Nuigini, You are leaving for Etihad. Do you think you have the right to an opinion or are you just stirring it before you go?
Wobble and Topbunk, Have you put in for part-time or working for free as per WW's front page request in Pravda? Pinkaroo's household has.

TopBunk,

No, what I was saying, or trying to explain, poorly as it seems, is why we have destination payments, why LGW don't, why not all trips to the same destination have them.

I think change should happen, but as I've said before, I'm not going to say here what I think those changes should be.

I was trying to explain why we have them NOW, not why we should keep them. I never said that.

allowances vary as you well know.

so as you then admit the allowances are needed then?

As for choice in place to live, well it is you choice but you should live with in a sensible travelling distance to LHR. So where`s cheap? mmmm I`ll go for the north home counties.. Herts? nope.. Bucks? well Milton Keynes possibly but that M1 M25 isn`t great, Beds? mmm Luton? yes well.. Beds possibly.. you all know that its expensive to live in the southeast and my £23K (B4 tax) earn last year on new contract was fine. Not asking for more or less willing to work more yep.

pinkaroo

Yes - one step further in fact! Permanently helping the business under VR offer ....:eek::ooh:

Pinkaroo

"Hardly a fortune is it? CM, would you get out of bed for it, year after year?"

That is the whole problem. The world has changed. People are NOT paying the amount we need to fill seats on the aircraft to reward us in the manner to which we have become used to.

Something has to change. We have to accept change. Shrugging our shoulders and collectively say "NO" will not produce the people to buy the tickets which pay our current salary.

If, in the new economic climate which we are most certainly in, you dont find the salary acceptable, leave. Others will fill your position. It has always been thus.

We need to change. To do a 'protest' NO vote, will only lead Willie into giving us notice of termination of contract.

Then there will be no salary, no staff travel, quite possibly no pension.

Think about that! No salary, hence no mortgage or rent, no money for school or uni fees, no money for car repayments etc, no nipping off somewhere sunny during winter, no lifestyle. And having to find new employment in the current economic climate!! Not easy, and definately not the same lifestyle!!!

We need to negotiate to secure our future...............NEW BASSA anyone?....we have 18 days left!!

Tell the reps before time runs out.

OK, So we keep retreating as cheaper and cheaper labour arrives to fill the vacancies. Then what? This country was populated by a proud nation called the English. We worked hard. We made laws. We made a fair and safe society. We paid our taxes and financed the NHS and educational establishments. We raised our families. We built our country. We built an Airline industry other nations envy. Now we are just supposed to piss off are we?
Nuigini, It was the 25th of March 2009. That was only about 11 weeks ago! Ages? I don't think so! Hope the remuneration is lower there and the terms less favourable.

Pinkaroo, chill.

There used to be an Empire as well. The sun never set on it. Times change.

If we tried to force our employer to carry on with the cost burden it has, it will go broke!

That is not a win-win situation. We need to negotiate a solution before the 30th or we have blown it. The sun will have set on our empire.

We need BASSA to realise it needs to change, we need to negotiate or the empire is lost!

"We need to change. To do a 'protest' NO vote, will only lead Willie into giving us notice of termination of contract."


I don't think that will ever happen. Even if CC decide to strike. He cannot terminate the contract unless the company goes "bust". But if that happens, they would lose slots overnight. Hardly a successful outcome ;)

L.

Luksy, he most definitely CAN. Have a hunt on the web, tis all legal. I think it's called SOSR (Some Other Substantial Reason)

Like most things in life DYOR (do your own research)

My fiancee (old contract CSD) won't be striking over this and is painfully, viscerally aware of the dire straits the company finds itself in. She's more than happy to take on more work roles, a working position on the aircraft, managerial responsibilities etc etc. Not everyone's a foaming BASSA militant.

Just for perspective, you understand.

Pinkaroo, as CM has said, whether or not I would get out of bed for £1800 a month is totally irrelevant. Just as a point of interest I have, in my formative years, worked for far less whilst trying to obtain the qualifications required to do the job I do today.

The amount you get paid is relevant to the level of job you do, nothing more nothing less. As there are many other companies with CC operating for far less than BA then the company will see your pay as an opportunity to cut excess costs. Sorry but that is the way of business.

I am certain that CC would not want to be paid the same as OCS cleaners? But they work on the aircraft don't they? WW doesn't get paid the same as the pilots even though he is also a pilot does he. Horses for courses. Responsibility tied to re-numeration.

This adjustment is necessary albeit, due to the poor negotiating skills of BASSA over the past 10 years, a painful one.

Hopefully we will see an acceptable outcome and thus can continue to have these little discussions in the future on Pprune rather than in the dole queue.