I think what people are worried about is that if there aren't concessions made not only will the airline not return to profit, it may not go forward at all.

In response to Channex101, I think that you need to reconsider your position regarding monkeys and peanuts. I can honestly say that some of the 11 monthers have been some of the best crew I have flown with, they are enthusiastic and genuinely happy to be working for us, probably for a lot less than you.

I suspect that you feel threatened by these monkeys (your words), and well you should be. BASSA didn't try to stop this move by BA, a very clever move IMHO.

We all have to batton down the hatches now, we are in a hole deeper than ever before. CC costs are way over any other airline, just look at the CAA figures if you don't believe me.

Get your head out of the sand, you've had a great run but now things have to change and inevitably some will not stick around. You never know, we might actually get a whole load of new crew who are happy to be there and rejuvenate our on-board product....

Channex101 I would go careful what you say with regard to Monkeys and Peanuts, The new contract (if it arrives) will be based around(although not entirely on) London Gatwick Cabin crew terms and conditions, ergo it may seem that you are insulting them.

The company finds itself in a sorry state moving forwards. Matt101 is correct the longer term viability of BA is under threat. An aviation analyst comments that if cost remain the same, and income remains broadly neutral over the coming year, then BA has the potential to flounder just like Swiss, Sabena, and Alitalia. The immediate cash position remains good, but should this erode much further then all our suppliers will start to ask for payment upfront, loans obtained for new aircraft based on our cash position will not happen and BA will be unable to refinance these at a competitive rate.

I have said it before, but BA have cried wolf about the state of the business too many times, so why should we believe them now? The management IMHO are not making enough of an effort to convince the staff that this time is real. Perhaps they don't wish to scare away our remaining passengers.:ok:

Da Dog,

Sorry? Have you looked at the figures? Have you looked at the cash flowing out? Have you witnessed the environment we are flying in? Massive loads don't mean anything if the yield is low trying to keep people flying. Simple maths will tell you that if there is more going out than is coming in then the gravy train will grind to a halt eventually.

Add to that you have analysts figures confirming the position, downgrade of shares to 2nd level junk status with no guarantee that they won't drop further. Massive cost savings across the entire company with signs, posters and emails everywhere warning people to cut costs and save money. And still you can't see it? People taking VR, people being forced in some departments into CR, Citiflyer cutting CC and FC jobs, amalgamation of departments for more efficiency, ergo Loading and push back teams.

Look at the position of CC when taken against the steps taken by other departments over the last 5 years. The screaming, tantrum approach by BASSA has worked until now but all that has achieved is to make the drop further and more painful. BA CC are far above the going rate for CC as a poll here on Pprune showed when floods of people replied they would be very happy to work on the new contracts. Also, a full 319 with 17 Club from Gatwick to Bologna was run superbly by 3 crew why do we need 5 from Heathrow? Flight crew are about to make the decisions as to how their financial savings are to be met, and they will be met, but, believe me, those decisions are based purely on our wish to achieve the aim. Also add to the mix that BALPA have had, through careful negotiation, access to the Price Waterhouse Coopers financial analysis of BA's position. Perhaps BASSA should be following their lead as the BACC knows full well the state the company is in. We are certainly not accepting any pay cuts/CR due to CC not being willing to budge as was told to me by a purser the other day! :ugh:

As I said before it is time to put up or ship out.

Wobble2plank, I think you are trying to preach to the converted;) Perhaps read some of my other posts on this subject(the ones the moderator didn't delete that is) before you fire off a rant:ugh:

Did you not read and digest this part of my post?But I still stand by my commentEven Wille Walsh on ESS admits there are numerous staff members still with their heads in the sand:(

Da Dog,

Sorry, I humbly apologise for 'mis-targetting' ;), I will however let the 'rant' :confused: stand as a 'generic' for those who still refuse to believe the position the company is in.

Sadly there are still an awful lot of 'Bring the Company down' type people floating around who are of the opinion that if they have to give an inch on their T's & C's they don't see why anybody else should have a job at BA either.

Yes, but the point is the complexity, combined with those on older contracts, combined with a market rate faaaaarrr below the present mainline contracts.

Lets get one thing clear, I never aimed or insinuated any of that about our LGW crew! So lets stop the !!!!! stirring there before it even starts ok.
I mearly stated my opinion and thats how I stand, i dont have my head in the sand, (as willie so kindly put it) however i dont think we'd have that problem if the company were as honest and open as they shud be, but thats not for here!
There is no one who wants to see BA fail, and we dont want to being the company down, what is the sense in that????

As for the statement of feeling threatened by 11 month temps, why should i? i never worked with them, and nor would i as im not world wide crew, they had their choice of jobs to apply for, and i had mine. Im also not saying that they are sub standard because they are paid less.
Its easy for those this dosnt concern to sit outside looking in voicing their opinion, however if the shoe was on the other foot it would be very different. We all learn to spend within our means, and if those means are to be slashed we need to consider changes. For me, that means if i was on a wage "similar" to LGW crews, I would find it hard to afford to work, as i dont live in london.
I, as well as many other in the company are prepared to make changes, but the one thing change i refuse to accept is the T&C's of the proposed new fleet. Other than that i am happy to work long, work harder and improve my effiencey as long as my money dosnt suffer. Why should that be a problem if they offer part time to those who want it, and unpaid leave, they have already stated it will save them millions.

Oh, and just to clarify BA Citiflyer are not laying off 25 becuase of a downturn in traffic, its beacuse they have written off an aircraft in LCY and its not worth replacing as a new aircraft type arrives soon.

You have many valid points, and I certainly agree that it is quite disasterous on a personal level to find that a compensation to which people have become accustomed (or even mortgaged a house against) might be drastically cut overnight. Then again, years of obstruction on the part of the union have lead to the present circumstances. Nothing is ever black and white.

As a means of trying to shut down an argument - nice try. Fact is, that your settlement very much has an impact on the remainder of the business, the shareholders' returns, and the customers / suppliers of the BA business as a whole. What happens to your worker group does not happen in isolation of the world - one key point that BASSA hardliners fail completely to realise.

Quite not accurate. They are on the same allowances as other crew and to be on the fair side most entrants straight into WW also do get the better trips as they haven't been rostered anything previously. I remember one particular crew having CPT, HKG and SYD (through SIN) in one month!

I agree! Most of them are a great bunch of people and they have brought a lot into WW with their enthusiasm and willingness to work. I have done a couple of trips with a few of them on their last trips. Really sad to see them go!

How efficient is it to have cabin crew with majority of them on part-time contracts when you actually can have crew on full-time contracts?

How much work is not involved for scheduling to go over UPL on a daily basis and cover everything with SBY?

Think about the costs involved to keep the SEP of all those part-timers updated and still not able to use them 100%.

Overall having people on part-time is probably a lot more expensive than having people on full-time employed as you need less.

Unfortunately we also get plenty of flights where we pay premium money but don't provide premium service. Which makes you wonder why we pay premium money to everybody.

Carnage, well said. I have lost count of the number of times that inflight rest on short trans-Atlantic sectors (JFK in particular) has started within 90 minutes of wheels up. It is a sad truth within BA that the Number 1 priority is horizontal rest reather than the "superior" service we claim to provide.

Ask any punter who has experienced Singapore, Ethiad, Jet Airways if they think that crew are worth the extra expense.

Part Time working or the ability to do so is now the law of the land but you are probably correct that such staff cost more to employ as perhaps to do those on 11 month contracts.

Part time?? law of the land? under circumstances yes, such as children.... you ask alot of people who have been on the list for part time for 2 years then? if it was law of the land, wouldnt they have got it by now?

Ive voiced my opionion now, for anyone that was ex 11mnth temp or LGW dont take the words that were put in my mouth, i wasnt aiming the "paying peanuts attracts monkeys" at you guys!! it was taken out of its meaning and used to stir reaction i think

As for the 11 month guys who are so enthusiastic to work, how come on a recent flight back from JFK i heard two of them talking over the aisle of Club about interviews they had upcoming and hoped it was better than BA??
Also, some of them i doubt will come back if they seen how much money they were on with a temp contract, and then how much they could be on at singlefleet!

But each to their own, and that was my opinion which im entitled to have, as well as every other tom dick and harry on here!

Interesting comment. You are implying that the level of service offered to pax is dependent upon your salary? Seems a rather self defeating position as without the pax, you just won't survive.

BA LHR cabin crew salaries will not be the death of the airline. The wages were the same last year and almost £1 billion profit was made. Union busting will cost a fortune this year, not crew wages.

I strongly believe that it is pilot salaries that are sinking BA. Pilots are actually paying to have the privilege to fly elsewhere in the world. I bet there are no cabin crew doing that!

Get better fuel hedge fund managers!

Litebulbs
 

...Ah at last the BASSA spin and solution is revealed.

1. Pilots should take a pay cut or better still "pay to fly".
2. Sack our current hedge fund managers.........
3. Leave Cabin Crew T&C's alone.

Well whilst "1" and "2" might happen ( well at least the pay cut bit) there's not a Snowball's chance in hell of your T&C's being left alone.

I honestly, honestly think BASSA are in denial - I just hope ( I really do) that you and your colleagues come out of this reasonably unscathed and we all come out of this with a job in 12 months time.

Litebulbs
 

"BA LHR cabin crew salaries will not be the death of the airline"
"I strongly believe that it is pilot salaries that are sinking BA."

This is a beautifully nonsensical argument - the exact same thing could be said of any group of staff within BA. Perhaps you have failed to notice the massive change in world economics since then? I admit that management have failed to make the case for a permanent change but to suggest that the reason that the airline is in trouble is purely down to pilot costs merely detracts from any sensible point you had to make.

BASSA need to do better, the old mantra of leave us alone, take the money off someone else will not wash in this economic climate. Changes have to be made now to all departments, or else we end up like Sabena, Swissair etc.

Litebulbs

You must clearly have your head buried in the Bassa sand still :ugh:.

Everyone is being effected by to downturn in revenue by the airline industry,
and general global townturn.

Simple buisness understanding:

More income than outgoings = profit
More outgoings than income = failed buisness.

I hope this helps to understand why now and not before changes are needed!


Yes some pilots have paid to work this is mainly as part of their personal investment to theirselves
to get a valid type rating on their new pilots licence and hence become more attractive
to a employer, like BA.
A pilot will not pay to fly forever, as he/she needs to start earning to pay back the £60000+ to get their licence.
Pilots are paid comenserate to the skills and responsiblity they have,as are all others in our industry,

I believe this is why drastic changes are expected in BA with CC contracts, and "tweeking" of others contracts to bring
ALL of BA in line with other airlines they call it "benchmarking".

For everone in our industry we have either already seen changes or will
have to change our working practices and/or our contracts/saleries.

Sadly the "golden days" have gone !!!!

To add a point from yesterdays WW talk at Waterside (take what you will from this). He stated that he felt many of the staff do not believe how bad the situation is, he had lunch with Mr Darling and was told that there was nothing likely to come from the government. Finally if the staff will not change there will be no BA 2 years from now, we will go the same way as Swissair, he urged all the managers to go back and tell us all! He and the FD were not forgoing next months salary as a gimmick more of necessity. Enjoy this weekends weather.

Litebulbs

We need to change our working practices and do all that we can to ensure our company survives.

Have a look at the figures from the CAA website. It shows that the cost of employing Cabin Crew at BA is twice the cost of employing Cabin Crew at Virgin. (2006 for example: £27900 average cost at BA, £13300 at Virgin)

Some of our CC colleagues are VERY well remunerated, perhaps to the detriment of the rest of us.

"BA LHR cabin crew salaries will not be the death of the airline", but we sure as hell are assisting in the death of the airline.

We need to change, or we face a future with no salary, no staff travel, and no pension............and no Crate and Barrel !!!

At last a positive in all this mess! hehe ;-)

And then BA will make another £900M, due to the new fuel prices and you will have to spend the next 15 years getting back to where you are today.

From the BBC -

"The most striking number in British Airways results for the past year was the £3bn it spent on fuel, which was 44.5% higher than in the previous year.

So for all the talk from Willie Walsh, BA's chief executive, that "the global downturn makes this the harshest trading environment we have ever faced", without the £900m jump in fuel costs the airline would have been very comfortably in profit: operating profits would have been around £700m."

"In fact the evidence of BA's revenues is not of a cataclysmic global recession. Passenger revenues rose 3.1% to £7.8bn and cargo revenues were 9.4% higher at £673m. Which is not boom boom, but nor is it financial disaster at 30,000 feet.

What actually caused BA's worst ever loss of £401m before tax and the suspension of the dividend was a lamentable rise in costs: engineering and "other" aircraft costs increased by £59m or 13.1%; landing fees were 14.2% or £75m higher. Even staff costs rose a bit.

So it's difficult to avoid the impression that at least part of BA's agony, its descent in just 12 months from record profits to record losses, was of its own making - though plainly there's a limit to what it can do to hedge itself against the near-collapse in the value of sterling (which pushes up the cost of fuel) and against the volatility in the dollar oil price.

The better news is that BA expects to pay rather less for fuel this year."

Staff cost rose a bit, which you imagine would happen after a record year.

Litebulbs
 

But not long ago you said:

"I strongly believe that it is pilot salaries that are sinking BA"

Now you are saying:

"Staff costs rose a bit"

So in your opinion is BA sinking or not, and if it is, is it still your opinion that it's just the pilots who are to blame?

The "pay peanuts and get monkeys" argument is pure nonsense. There is a lot of evidence that there is little relationship between terms and conditions (in any service industry) and service given. The key is the overall climate and culture within the company .The fact is that BA service is -and has been for many years, -highly inconsostent. It can be the best in the world and it can also be the worst. The preoccupation on long haul is too often visibly to get away from the customers and into horizontal rest as quickly as possible and "To Fly to Rest" seems to take over from "To Fly to Serve". The allowance culture which drives many seems to undermine rather than enhance the attitude towards service,- despite it providing some of the highest financial rewards in the business. The crews of Easyjet and FlyBe within the UK and the Asian and Middle Eastern carriers and some smaller niche airlines on long haul are often more consistent and certainly more cheerful than many BA experiences. And as for the very highly paid US legacy carriers....................................

I totally agree on this and it's only used as a defense. There will always be people willing to work and I'm confident that many people wouldn't mind to work for a lot less money than what some BA crew are earning only to travel around the world.

As Skylion says there is also an atmosphere in the company to finish the service as quickly as possible to get as much rest as possible.

We all have to do our share and we won't get any sympathy at all, not from any of the other departments or our customers, for going on a strike in these times.

BASSA has also proposed a solution to the company that all new crew recruited will be employed under a new contract (different pay and terms) which will meet the financial situation. Are we supposed to have crew on board which are on THREE different contracts?

Litebulbs:

Ironically for a long time, as the CC were all raking in their expenses cash (sound familiar) the large influx of Cadets from the early 90's was making itself felt in the fact that BA had, of any major national legacy long haul carrier in the world, the cheapest LH Captains.

Things are a little flexible now due to the increase in the retirement age but, and it's a big but, that also applies to certain members of the CC community who command large, overinflated salaries for a job where they play no active role in the service on the aircraft! The days of over seeing the Chefs, assuring the presentation of First Class meals and the correct cooled temperature of the wines are long gone. Not just on BA but on ALL LH carriers who are trying to struggle through this.

It has been well discussed already that FC pay is benchmarked against other carriers thus generating the ability to entice qualified personnel into the BA cockpit. CC have not, yet, had that pleasure and it is coming now in the shape of WW's demand list. I suggest you scroll back a few pages and have a read, it is all there.

The next year will be very telling and, I honestly believe, quite painful for some. The other departments at BA who do realise the problems, are pro-active about their cost savings and are putting up with the transitional pain are totally fed up of the puerile nature of the BASSA bleating. Time to grow up I'm afraid, the rumour I have heard is that even Unite can't be bothered with the BASSA rhetoric this time around.

It the collape in yield that is the problem
 

I attended the Wille Walsh/Keith Williams presentation and the message is that BA's business is currently somewhere between catastrophic and cataclysmic with the collapse in yields in Club being the main problem with March 2009 being particularly horrific. There is no sign of a bottom with, for example, Air France offering LHR-CDG-HKG business class at £1000 return. Couple of mentions as to how relatively well LGW long haul is doing and is being awarded by new routes to Maldives, Sharm, Montego Bay, Dominican Republic. I would suggest that the something like the LGW contract is what LHR crew are going to be offered/forced to accept at the end of June. WW made the point that the top union officialls in Unite and GMB will still have jobs even after we are all on the dole. The yield situation is critical and peope will never again pay the rates for Club that they were pre-2008 therefore temporary solutions are not an option. Lots of people may still be flying in club but they are using cheaper, restricted tickets. 80 of my colleagues in Im left yesterday with generous redundancy but the point was made that as money begins to run out any redundancy pay will be massively reduced.

As a regular long haul passenger I can confirm that the opinion of regular passengers is that the cabin service is usually rushed.

That is particularly noticeable on flights departing Heathrow. A fellow passenger commented he had flown up from Nice that day and noticed 2 of our cabin staff were passengers (in uniform-hence he noticed them) on the same flight as himself that arrived more than 5 hours before the departure time of our flight. He thought they might be tired and in need of rest and that could be the reason for the rushed service on an 11 hour afternoon flight.

I would like to add that most of the BA cabin staff are the best in the business, it is a great pity not all of them are in this category, that is a management issue.

On other airlines we always see the equivilant of a cabin service director/manager visible in all cabins usually helping out with the service.

My last flight was with another carrier and the cabin manager was serving meals in the economy cabin and then spent some time walking around afterwards to see if anyone needed anything or just wanted to chat. The service was efficiently managed and not rushed.

Changes in Ba Crew Agreements
 

As a memeber of Ground staff I think that it is about time that Cabin Crew took a long hard look at what their continuouse threats are doing to our Airline.All other Departements within BA have had to make changes, some of these changes has meant a loss in earnings but we have changed to enanble BA to continue, but we are forever hearing that Cabin Crew are Threatening to hold Ballots, for industrial action, its about time Cabin Crew started to live in the real world, you threaten action forget asking ground staff for support, your on your own.

Message from our manager
 

Dear Colleague

Many of you will have read this weekend’s communication from BASSA/Unite.

Ahead of our meeting with them and Amicus on Monday, I wanted to give you a picture of where we are and how things have moved on.

I need to tell you that the challenges we face have got much worse since the start of these pay and productivity talks with the unions several months ago, and are now far more serious than any of us could have imagined.

Grim reading

As you know we made a record pre-tax loss of £401million in 2008/09 – with the results in the fourth quarter making really grim reading. Underlying revenue, excluding currency exchange, was down 21%, and the operating loss for the quarter was £309 million – the largest quarterly loss in our history.

We’ve started the new financial year with every one of our key measures down – how much customers pay, how many customers we have, and how full our planes are.

Fight for survival

Let’s be clear – we are now fighting for our survival and time is running out.

As a result, the company has set a deadline of 30 June (four weeks away) for every area of the business to reach agreements in the pay and productivity talks.

At the same time the size and scale of our challenge on permanent cost-savings has substantially increased across the company and in IFCE.

It means the measures we have been discussing with the trade unions until now, including the introduction of a Mixed Fleet at Heathrow, are no longer enough.

For example, the cuts in our winter schedule and grounding of 16 aircraft have significantly reduced the planned savings Mixed Fleet would generate.

A separate Mixed Fleet still forms an important part of our plan, but it will launch on a much smaller scale than originally forecast: 500 crew in the first two years instead of 2,000.

Increased productivity

Instead we have to look harder at increased productivity with our existing people to generate the savings we need.

That is why at Monday’s NSP, we’ll be talking not just about Mixed Fleet Heathrow, but also significant reductions in crew complements, while continuing to deliver excellent service to our customers.

This could be achieved through crew taking up offers of part-time contracts and voluntary redundancy, and while it does mean having to work harder, it adheres to my commitment of trying to minimise any financial impact on you, our current crew.

Voluntary redundancy

We’ll offer everyone the opportunity to express an interest in voluntary redundancy and we’ll open up the lists next week. We’ve already started the process of offering part-time contracts to eligible crew using the Ops and Choice Framework and the existing lists.

At Monday’s meeting we’ll also discuss a new disruption agreement that allows us to respond more quickly to operational disruption, enabling us to improve the level and speed of service we can offer to our customers.

Temporary measures not enough

We’ll also accept the offer from Steve Turner, Unite’s National Secretary for Aviation, of a two-year pay-freeze and an increment freeze, although we’ll say that in its present form as a ‘temporary loan’ the offer does not go far enough.

I know there are some tough messages in this letter, but I have to underline the gravity of our situation and the need to deliver permanent cost-savings. Temporary changes, though welcome, are not enough, and if we don’t face up to this issue we will go out of business. This will affect you, your pay and your pension.

I remain committed to talking with the trade unions to find a joint solution to the extremely serious challenges we face. I will contact you again after the NSP on Monday.

I do not believe this attack on the BA cabin crew is justified.As pointed out previously,fuel costs have impacted most on BA's profitability and as fuel is now back to $50 per barrel,profitability will accelerate.
I sense that the current proposals are an attempt to force through permanent cost savings,before the economic situation improves dramatically.

Todays FT pointed out the upsurge in growth and demand in Japan and China,the growth in Japan being the most significant in the last 50 years !!Flying as cabin crew is a demanding role,both in customer contact and exhaustion from time zone changes,shift patterns etc. A reasonable reward has to be paid to attract the caliber of employee to constantly deliver the product to the required standard. To reduce the remuneration package to the bare minimum would be disastrous for a full service airline.

Economic recovery will come,that is inevitable,the airlines' desperation to force through sweeping salary and benefit cuts,strikes me as blatant opportunism. I am sure the cabin crew will resist this attack on their well earned pay and conditions.

"A reasonable reward has to be paid to attract the calibre of employee to constantly deliver the product,to the required standard."

"the cost of employing Cabin Crew at BA is twice the cost of employing Cabin Crew at Virgin. (2006 for example: £27900 average cost at BA, £13300 at Virgin)."

And there is the problem in a nutshell. BASSA believe that "a reasonable reward" is twice that of their nearest competitor. While BASSA believe that BA CC are so special they should be paid - on average twice the reasonable rate, BA are screwed.

Yes economic recovery will come, but not in its past form, meaning passengers, particularly business ones, will fly less, and also pay less which means Airlines cannot reduce costs just for a year or two and go back to previous levels.

Yes I am sure there might be resistance to productivity and working practice changes, but then if these are not negociated, then I think they will be forced in, and what is forced through will be a lot worse than what can be negociated!

I feel all the propaganda from the company is doom and gloom. Just look at this weeks BA news...fight for survival ! An attempt to hoodwink and brainwash the employees into making life changing decisions, only to see company profits on an amazing scale in years to come.
As for BA crew earning twice the salary of Virgin crew; just nonsense.....Virgin cabin crew do not work all year for £13000.....just not a salary to enable survival, let alone a living wage.

Oh come on BermudaTriangle, no one is holding a gun to our heads saying we have to work for BA. If we dont like it, we can leave!! The fact is no one else will pay us the amount we receive for doing so little.

We have to face the fact the Virgin manage to attract their crews for half the cost to Virgin than BA does. Its fact.

We have to change. If you think the whole message from BA is bollocks, try talking to our customers about how their businesses are doing? Or read a newspaper, or watch the news. Perhaps you should try and buy your paper at Woolworths. It might surprise you!!

bermudatriangle,

You seem to personify the BASSA Ostrich. It's against my hard earned 1970's terms and conditions? The only hard fight for those was the constant whine and toy throwing to enable you to keep them for so long in a competitive world.

I challenge you to find any other LH operator where a member of the CC with no active role on the aircraft earns more than some of the pilots and then still tell us you've 'earned' those T's & C's.

The CC pay structure is almost as great a millstone around BA's neck as the pension. Unless it is curtailed, structured and dragged, screaming and kicking into the current century then the prospects for the company certainly is doom and gloom.

As to whether LHR crew are worth their weight in candied gold? Nope, give me a good crew from LGW every time. Full aircraft, three working, well, hard and efficient plus fixed linking. Far better.

And that's the problem for you wobble. someone is earning more than a skygod. Why don't we find some nice cheap flightcrew and wheel them in and you can go home aswell? You have convinced yourself your money is fully justified but those oiks down the back on 20K must take a paycut. You are paid 5 times as much. Let them eat cake eh?