Despair!
 

As BA CC myself (Eurofleet) I have to say that I am starting to despair of this whole situation, and am doubting that many of my colleagues have any ability whatsoever to trully see what's happening to BA and the industry in general. How that will translate if it comes to any kind of vote absolutely terrifies me.

Over the last few days, so many that I have worked with are simply spouting along the lines of "BA is not in financial trouble, it's all lies", "Willy just wants to destroy BASSA", "It's illegal to make anyone redundant", and the latest now is from those crew who, having read the subject title of the VUW offer, think that they are being asked to give up ALL payments (including allowances) for 1-4weeks, think it only applies to crew (so is therefore unfair), or think they are being asked to work their days-off.

That's scary, but what's worse is that despite many postings on the BASSA and other CC forum sites, it seems that BASSA itself is quite content to let this confusion run riot amongst it's members.

That said, I have to also say that I'm finding the (mostly) level-headed debate on here to be quite uplifting, despite the seriousness of the subject matter. There may be hope!

It is scary. It has reached the point if BASSA were to ask its members to jump they wouldn't ask why but instead how high.

TorC Part of the problem is as I see it is the bitterness and anger between BA management and BA cabin crew. I have worked for the airline just over 20 years and the tensions between the two sides seems to be increasing on a weekly basis.

I have a lot to be thankful for BA has been good to me. But I can see why this anger and resentment has happened over the years.

Hence why we are now at a point where there is no trust or mutual respect. BA may be telling the truth and we are as a company in dire trouble. But the very people it needs on side are working against the company and dare I say there is even an element that don't give a dam if the company goes under.

I think its very sad that we are where we are now, but I fear that there is going to be major trouble ahead for Mr Walsh as they seem intent on screwing the cabin crew community out of their terms and conditions, while other departments (non customer service departments) seem to be getting let off somewhat lightly.

Deltaguy:

The only reason that other departments 'seem' to be getting away lightly is because they have already rationalised! This fact has been conveniently hidden from the majority of BASSA members as the hierarchy in BASSA realise that they have a long way to fall if they were to catch up with the rest of the company. Ask the engineers how their conditions have changed, the ramp rats, loaders, Ground handling staff, pilots etc. All of the T's & C's are remarkably different to 10 years ago.

The CC however, are not. This may be seen as a triumph of BASSA negotiating, no is an easy word, but what it ultimately has been is that the company couldn't, at the time, be bothered with the petty, militant approach. Now, however, they need to take the bull by the horns and take BASSA/UNITE head on.

Now 10/20 years of painful adjustment comes at once and people wonder why the CC are complaining? Sorry but it has been coming for a long time.

Who's going to keep the cat?
 

Yes, tensions/emotions etc will fluctuate, as they will do in any form of relationship. That's only natural.

What is also natural in most relationships, if they are honest and true relationships in which both parties want the best for each other, is a willingness by both parties to talk/listen/question/understand/give/take etc and to try to move towards a common point of resolution, at a cost acceptable to both parties. This is what seems to be sadly lacking in the BA/BASSA relationship. I accept that blame lies on both sides. I do not accept though that it lies in equal proportions.

As an employee, I relate myself directly to BA, not via BASSA. I have a seperate relationship with BASSA. Most of the time, I'm fairly content with my relationship to BA. It feels to me to be quite a healthy and open relationship. BASSA and me though, we are on shaky ground, and maybe about to argue over who gets to keep the cat.

Stall Pusher
 

"Only two 744's have been grounded this year, yet we are taking delivery of 4 new 777-2200ER's"

But what about the additional 744's and the 757's that will be grounded this Winter (someone will remind me of the numbers involved in a minute)?

16 grounded in total.

Contrary to the MOS:rolleyes: reports, he BALPA deal that meets the company demands and wil be balloted on includes:

Basic pay reduction by just below 3%
Flying rate reduced by about 20%
Increased annual work LH and SH
Fewer augmented crew on LH
Reduced report times for SH (due T5 improvements)

This is the result of an intelligent negotiation between an Association and a Company. It still has to be voted in, but I'm sure it will be; and BALPA retains the right to null and void it if any other area doesn't fulfill their part of their commitment in its entirity.

Meanwhile BASSA are apparently denying that there is a problem at all. Well, folks, stand by for a few hard proposals and realities in the next fortnight if your reps don't wisen up.

I wish you well as individuals, but look forward to the obliteration of BASSA and their total ignorance of reality. Bring it on Willie - well overdue and something that the rest of the company are relishing - just ask any engineer, for example.

Topbunk

Just for clarity, to avoid any possible misunderstanding and you being misquoted ... :ok:

Do you mean the Flying Hour Rate is down 20%? (i.e. the payment for each hour flown is reduced by 20%)

I think he does. :ok:

I suppose our clear times will be discussed as they have been monitoring them closely since we began reporting at the CRC. In that case many crew do have themselves to run as many rush off the aircraft, even being told otherwise, as soon as the passengers have disembarked.

TopBunk

Is it true that they want the flight crew to fly their maximum hours?

nuigini

Yes, there has been an hours/annum increase for both LH and SH which brings us closer to the maximum annual flying rate. This is at no extra cost to the company hence the productivity gains.

Work more, paid less.

More to come for the CC.

BA WILL go bust if anyone is stupid enough to go on strike.

Thankfully, unlike you stallpusher, many crew do are able to see the bigger picture and I just pray that others wake up before it's too late.

Remember BCAL - everyone said they wouldn't go broke and look what happened there. :ugh:

It seems that BASSA are now really fearful about the loss of Ts & Cs for the senior/older end of the pay/perk scales. They don't seem to have done an awful lot for the younger, newer entrants or those at LGW. Essentially, BASSA appears to have been a club run by the seniors for the seniors, and everyone else has been bullied and lied to to keep them in line. These 'club-members' are beginning to sweat and panic as their cosy little lives are now seriously threatened! No more cosy trip selections or dictating behaviour during disruption.

Such a shame that so many of its members have allowed themselves to be led up this garden path.

The train smash is coming, and coming quickly. Casualties will abound. And Stall Pusher will probably only realise that as they zip up his/her body bag!

:ugh:

I also hope others will come to their senses and see what exactly is happening. I recently came home from a trip and some crew really scare me with their selfishness. One girl said she would rather see the airline go bust than having her terms and conditions changed because she can't afford to give up any money. How clever is that?

This also explains the suggestion that BA should introduce a new contract with new terms and conditions and let future crew work on existing fleets instead of introducing an entirely new fleet. This shows that BASSA only cares about excisting crew and their salaries.

Well TopBunk. It is about time that BALPA entered into an intelligent debate with BA management, after the embarrassing situation your union got itself into over OpenSkies.Wasn't very intelligent was it?

Fancy you lot taking a pay cut whilst our dear CEO continues to pump money into your nemesis! Willie seems to get whatever he wants from the pilots.

I do not know why the pilots on this forum keep attacking BASSA. All I hear from them is how weak and expensive their union is, moaning about the reps etc.

BALPA ought to take a leaf out of BASSA's book and not get pushed around by Walsh. He has got those OpenSkies contracts all ready for you in the drawer. You will wish you were flying for JetStar.

Welcome back Stall Pusher,


So I take it you still have no thoughts on the consequences of 16 aircraft being grounded this winter, not the 2 you claimed your post #760?....

Stall Pusher:

Your postings betray your prejudices all too clearly.

What you didn't post was that the BALPA deal will not happen unless all the other groups pull their weight.....

So unless BASSA learn the meaning of the verb 'negotiate' then the pilot pay cut will not happen!

The pilots have settled with BA, looks like a certain union is going to be standing out in the playground by itself when the school bell rings....

Dear Moderator. There have been a lot of attacks here on BASSA.;)

The 757's were going anyway to OpenSkies.....but now they are not.

There are eight 744's being 'rested'.

It is strange that BALPA have looked into BA's books and decided on a pay cut for its members, when the following should have been considered:

1. Why has British Airways been mis-managed to a degree that Willie Walsh and the Board have turned a profit before tax of £922m in 2008, into a loss before tax of £401m this year - a staggering difference of £1,323m!

2. Half of this amount appears to be the cost of fines levied on the company by the regulatory authorities over criminal actions, for participating in illegal fuel surcharge and cargo cartels.


3. Doesn't a company the size of British Airways deserve a Chairman that is prepared to devote his full attention to the matter of running the company successfully, rather than leaving it in the hands of someone who only works part-time in the job?

It seems that if the pilots are happy to reward incompetence on such a grand scale by donating part of their salaries away, it necessarily follows that perhaps this was not an intelligent thing to do.

How much mis information is being fed to people, these fines were accounted for in the accounts for year ending March 2007! See the Annual Report from that year.

Comparisons
 

Stallpusher,

To answer your first question. Yes there is a difference of £1.3Bn year on year. One billion is an increase in fuel costs as the oil price went to a record high of approx $150 a barrel. Yes it did dip later to around $50 but is heading back up again $70 at the moment you'll notice unleaded is now back over £1 again. As for the other £300m that is the recession people aren't paying the higher fares and the banks aren't travelling as much as they did.

As BA can't stop a recession or change the price of oil, that leaves employee costs and productivity. We're doing our bit and many parts of the company have over the last few years, so over to you. It will be less painful if you negotiate.

To you second question, the fines were in the previous financial year's figures not last year's. So the figures are worse than you choose to believe.


CB

Well BA is doomed anyway when the oil runs out!

I seriously doubt that BASSA will be stupid enough to strike, at this point in time it may not be the wisest of moves, I also seriously doubt that BA will go bust.

ba and project columbus 111
 

hi,
i would just like to make the following point.

willie will be taking his cue from the cabin crew unions at the end of june - as cabin crew, i'm sure that you are aware that bassa has a poll on their website - the information taken from that poll will be presented to willie at the end of the month and based on that information he will make his decisions.
i can't see that willie will be listening to individual voices - possibly hasn't got the time.
you can argue away here but if you want your voice heard you need to either fill in the bassa poll or get amicus to start up a similar poll.

i've spoken to lots of crew who don't seem to realise that completing the poll is important - otherwise, willie will just be getting a minority point of view. scary for all of us.

so, my advice is, to get off your b*******s and make sure your voices are heard.

Virginia

Well that's a very cosy and happy-ever-after point of view.

What sort of foundations have you based it on?

Can those who believe that BA is pulling a fast one and is preparing to make a fortune in the forseeable future please provide some sort of statistical basis for this notion?

There are plenty of numbers out there showing our dire financial position, but I've seen none from Bassa to support their argument.

Lots of emotive rhetoric to stir up the troops, but no stats to create a reasonable argument.

There has been a lot of talk on here (and other places) about Bassa suggesting cost cuttings (albeit temporary). However, I can't seem to find anywhere what those suggestions are/were.

Could anyone please enlighten us? Or have they not released this information, but telling members to trust their reps?

There is another forum around where there is so much hatred and bitterness towards management, fellow crew, pilots and anyone else that it's actually quite shocking to read. I know this is not everyone, but it must be very draining being so angry all the time.

Gg

2008/2009 annual report & accounts. Chief Executive's Review.

"This focus on premium markets may look strange at a time when premium traffic, according to IATA’s latest figures, has declined by around 19 per cent in the first three months of 2009, and when we have been forced to cut back our premium capacity by parking aircraft and reducing flying.

We check our vision against our short-term actions regularly and are convinced it remains valid. For a start, it marks a continuation of the work we have already done to improve our products and services. We remain convinced that this is the part of the market where we need to be powerfully represented when conditions improve – as they inevitably will."

Glamgirl


The latest that I could find was the BASSA Latest News update of 31May (on the BASSA website). This was the idea that instead of Newfleet, there should be Newcrew. That's to say that new crew would work on current fleets instead of the seperate proposed new fleet.

Beyond that, I can't see much of any substance. There are a few more news-flashes post 31May, some of which (Walsh set for £2.4m pay out, for example, posted on 11June) have yet to be updated with current, correct info.

I think you can safely go with the 2nd sentence of your 2nd paragraph.

As to your 3rd paragraph: Yes, I've noticed quite a few crew lately that are so drained that they find it hard to do things such as post take-off PAs, 2nd bar rounds on band4 sectors, hold a delicup/tumbler at it's base, offer the choice of meals/sandwiches, play the foreign language PAs, play the subtitles on the safety demo video and other such demanding aspects of our job. I even had a briefing recently where the CSD told us that the service routine was "chuck it out, clear it in, read the paper". Truly inspirational!

The above mentioned crew are good at running off the aircraft and through Terminal 5 though, so I guess they can't be that drained after all :rolleyes:

PC767

That was then .... this is now. To be fair though, I do see the point you are trying to make. But do you expect premium loads/yields NEVER to improve? I'm sure they will, but in years, not months, and probably not at the £s we have been used to.

Let's hope that the mention of "work we have already done to improve our products and services" wasn't relating to hot towels in WT+ as we really wouldn't want to be caught telling porkies would we?

Well, those are the crew that I'm ashamed to call colleagues. It can be a tiring job at times, but take the rough with the smooth and it's a darned good job to have. If everyone could just do what they're supposed to do when they're supposed to do it on the aircraft we would be the best in the world. Problem is, too many think passengers are an inconvenience and distraction.

This kind of attitude bothers me a great deal, and I just wish people could do their job as they're supposed to.

Anyways... I'll keep dreaming and hoping...

Gg

GG .... Don't despair, you are not dreaming and hoping in solitude. Really, you aren't.

Stall Pusher, and BASSA,

I am saddened by the way there are so many attacks on the CEO, and in one post the Chairman.

Why cant BASSA stop picking convenient bits of history and move forward?

Hedging is done by most businesses, and indeed by many individuals. Who hasn't bought a bottle of Scotch and filled their petrol tank on the day of the Budget...........just in case the Chancellor increases the relevant duties? That is hedging!!

Prudent companies also buy harvests when the price is low, or in the case of airlines with a known need for fuel, buy fuel when they think the costs is advantageous.

I find it somewhat ludicrous, and sadly bizarrely hypocritical, that BASSA is able to use this line to us Cabin Crew. Lets face it, we kniow a Sale, or a bargain when we see one......or we think we do!! Who hasn't bought things at Abercrombie and Fitch, Maceys, Walmart, Tesco or ASDA when they thought they were getting a good deal? This is exactly what BA were doing. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

um.....and those attacks on 'price fixing' always seem to forget that people have actually gone to jail over it.......and they are still locked up!!

With T5, the buck stopped with Willie. Yes he sacked 2 people. I dont know, but perhaps they were the people who failed to tell Willie that there were problems?

I think it was last year, that BASSA portrayed Willie Walsh in either a 'pirate' or 'burglar' style outfit in a newsletter, and included a 'letter from the future' bemoaning a time when changes had been undertaken.

Could BASSA perhaps stop the personal attacks, and the fiction, and deal with the facts, as they affect us NOW?

The past is the past. The CEO is the CEO. The world financial crisis is real, and affecting all businesses. Can you please release the figures that you have seen. It will take a change of tack, but crews will respect you for the blatant honesty. We have had it very good for a long time.

Please stop dwelling on a view of the past, and successfully negotiate our future in British Airways.

Andy. You need to get real.

Walsh should have been sacked over T5, but two Directors were sacrificed in his place. Why?

It is all unravelling now. Here is a post from another forum:

There is a different option available at Gatwick...instead of working for free we are getting offered £80-100 to come in on our days off to do overtime because someone somewhere has cocked up the manpower figures...AGAIN!! http://www.crewforum.co.uk/forum/smileys/smiley129.gif

Stall Pusher

How about releasing the figures that BASSA have seen and enlightening the members?

Glamgirl:
Glamgirl, this kind of attitude has been around for decades. I'm not sure if the 'get as much out of it whilst doing as little as possible' behaviour is endemic in BA cabin crew or representative of society at large.

Either way, you highlight a major issue.
Some crew seem to think that getting to their destination with as much rest and as little personal inconvenience as possible is the main objective.
As opposed to recognising that they are paid to do a job that has the added bonus, when they have finished work, of arriving somewhere desirable (or not!) at the other end.

I'm looking at the loads for my next trip to India. Half full both ways.
To me that's extremely disappointing. To some of my crew (those that haven't gone sick because they 'don't do India') I'm sure it will be a cause for celebration.

WW doesn't get twice the quality of customer service for twice the money. He doesn't even get the best customer service for twice the money.

If it bothers you and me it enrages WW.

I remember asking a Gold card member for his thoughts on travelling with BA recently. He said that after refusing to fly with us for a while he had noticed a marked improvement in the cabin crew. He added 'it's amazing what the threat of losing your job can do to your motivation.'

Nicely put.

When I read the headlines of the Daily Mail today, it dawns on me what Walsh is doing. It is an act of Filicide.

I believe he is deliberately bankrupting British Airways so that it can be taken over cheaply and at the same time, the liabilities of the pension fund can be jettisoned and everyone's contracts will be changed as they are re-employed. He tried a management buy-out at Aer Lingus, but was rebuffed by Bertie Ahern. What is happening at BA is a modification of that.

Andy, I am afraid your loyalty to Mr Walsh and BA are greatly misplaced. Look after yourself and find another job, that is what I am going to do. British Airways has now become a laughing stock and a source of ridicule.

One of those 2 "sacrificial lambs" was Cargo MD at the time of the price-fixing scandal. Delayed retribution?

Not necessarily. It's generally cheaper to pay overtime than it is to employ extra man power (no NI or pension contributions for example). I'm sure you could volunteer to work for free if you really wanted to and save the company £80 - 100 per day.;)