Fleets are aircraft fleets, but the term is sometimes used in confusing context by cabin crew management in relation to crewing. Cabin crew are organised into 3 groups: LHR Worldwide, flying long haul on 747/777/767; LHR Eurofleet, flying short haul on A320, B757 and B767; LGW Single fleet, flying form LGW on mixed long and short haul routes on 777, A319 and B737. The company are proposing ot introduce a LGW style group into LHR, named 'newfleet', which will fly a mix of long and short haul flying on different terms to all the other groups.

Maximum 3 per person.

The following answers only apply to LHR....

Both. They get a fixed salary plus: a cash allowance for each meal; overtime payments for long flights (long haul only); short turnaround payments (short haul only); working one crew member down payments (long haul only); diversion payments (uncommon!);extended turnaround payments for flights with shuttles; plus a small incidentals allowance per night for nightstops. As you have probably gathered, its complicated.

No. Overtime is triggered for long duty days.

Yes. Early reports on long haul have restrictions the prior day, late finishes on short haul have restrictions on the next day. Not sure of the exact details.

Pass.
>60% of BA cabin crew are on part time contracts of some sort I read.

Can't give you the exact breakdown for tourist class but you have one CSD on a 747 (who has no formal service role but often chooses to assist) and 3 Pursers, with 11/12 main crew depending on route. Max passenger load is 337.
It's based on eating in the hotel at the slip station and is paid with wages one month in arrears. Nobody spends anything like the total meal allowance on eating, as a recent tax audit has revealed.

There is a facility to request one trip per year a believe, which seems to be reasonbly successful. Requesting days off is not so easy. Thats on longhaul. Shorthaul have a work bidding system.

Gatwicks system is much simpler, which consists I believe of a basic salary and an hourly rate from check in to check out. I think they also have a bidding system in place for work too.

60% of Heathrow long haul cabin crew commute from distant places in the UK and even from abroad-this is amazing, surely it cannot be correct?

I cannot comment on the car parking but 60% of the amount of cabin crew at Heathrow must be 5000+ which is a lot of parking spaces but they would not all be there at once, some would be on days off. I would have thought the biggest problem would be if they do not get on their commuting flights or thier commuting flights were disprupted and they did not turn up for work. I presume the airline insists they commute to London the day before they work and spend the night in a hotel to avoid this which must cut down on thier time off at home considerably.

If they do commute on the day they work they may have to sit around for hours before they report for work and do the same when they finish work. The flight schedules cannot always conveniently coincide with thier duties. They must leave home 5+ hours before they start work if they commute on the day of work.

A take home pay of £1600 pm is not so bad, I work with people who take home less than this and have degrees etc and are not classed as unskilled labour.

If the diff in pay is so great between the two bases one assumes Gatwick crew are not in the same TU as Heathrow crew?

A final point my next door neighbour's daughter is recent Gatwick crew and loves the variety of work, she would not go back to being a nurse for anything. Speaking to her she says she would hate having to do just short flights or just long flights which is the reason she has no desire to work at Heathrow.

Baz,

We do have the same TU, but still get treated differently. It has been made obvious to us several times where the TU has their priority and unfortunately for us, it's not LGW.

For anyone thinking I'm bitter and twisted about this, I'm honestly not. It is just frustrating being accused of it when stating what the difference is, and people assuming we're jealous.

Gg

Most of the trips to LAX and NRT are two local nights downroute. There is a three day trip to LAX but one sector includes positioning. LAX gives three days off and NRT gives four days off.

Hi Juud,

I'll give it a go, although some answers will only be from a LGW point of view, I'm afraid. Unfortunately, as you've already gathered, the different allowances and agreements at BA are ridiculously complicated and even I don't understand most of them at LHR. Hopefully, crew from LHR EF and LHR WW will be able to add their bits to make a more complete picture.

We presently have three fleets at BA. LGW Single Fleet, which is a mixed flying programme, LHR Euro Fleet covering the short haul from LHR and LHR World Wide operating the long haul flights. All three fleets have different agreements and allowances but all three fleets do night stop in various places.

LGW crew are able to operate on the 737, A319, A320, A321 and the 777, with the A318 also on the horizon.
LHR EF operate on the A319, A320, A321 and I think the 757
LHR WW are on the 767,777 and 747.

None of us get a fixed salary as such, in that it will differ every month. We get a basic salary to which allowances, sector pay at LHR or an hourly rate at LGW, plus other adhoc payments are then added at the end of the month, usually a month in arrears.

Yes we get overtime, but again, it varies between the fleets as the agreements differ. I can't say about LHR but at LGW it's around 14.00 per hour after the first 10.5 hrs. However, that's a very simplified version of it. We don't, however, get anything extra for working holidays, except for Christmas Day and you have to be actually flying, not just down route to get the payment. I have no idea how much it is but don't think it's a huge amount.

At LGW, the only time our pay changes dependant on the time of day, is if we clear after midnight on a straight shorthaul flight, in which case, we generate an overnight allowance. I don't know whether LHR crew have the same arrangement.

Trip lengths vary, depending on the destination and frequency of flights. At LGW it varies from a three day trip, (one local night), on something like Bermuda to a 7 day trip to St Lucia. However, the longer trips tend to include shuttles in the middle of the trip. All L/H at LGW generates 2 days off, bar the 7 day St Lucia, which gives three days off.

Part Time contracts are available across all the fleets, including 75% and 50%.

How many crew per pax is another thing the differs between LHR and LGW. I don't know the crewing levels at LHR but at LGW, it is 3 for the shorthaul aircraft unless the club load triggers extra. That is dependant on the aircraft type, the route etc and has so many variants it would take forever to list them all. The largest S/H aircraft we generally operate on has a max pax load of 147. On the 777, we have a Cabin Manager, 2 Pursers and 7 Main Crew for a three class aircraft and 1 extra Main Crew member for the four class. The Pursers work in the Club galley and the World Traveller galley and the CM has a working position in the services, as well as dealing with any problems.

We do get allowances for when we are downroute, but as usual, they vary. At LGW, we get breakfast free on the Short Haul nightstops, or a voucher towards a meal if we leave before breakfast, but not on Long Haul, plus we get a small overnight allowance on all nightstops. That stays the same, regardless of where we go and the O/N allowances are paid directly into our salary. At LHR, from what I know, it differs in that each trip is worth a different amount dependant on the destination. They also get extra payments for so called "difficult" destinations, although where IAH and DFW come into that, I don't know!

Finally, at LGW, we can bid for trips and days off. It is supposed to go by seniority. Does it work? Hmmm.... :suspect:

Hope that all helps!

Or in other words....What GG said! :O

It's a pedantic point but you do get a fixed salary, then allowances on top. I'm sure that's what you meant but I labour the point after hearing so many crew at LHR complaining about doing a 'charity' Paris without recognising that they do actually get paid a salary to work!

Part time also includes 33%! In total 33, 50 and 75.

No problem, CM. On reading it back, I see your point and have now changed it.

nuigini,

I knew I'd miss something off!

Jsl

I also think it's rubbish now when crew from LHR are trying to get support from LGW by saying that everybody will be affected and they should think about it as many from LGW want to transfer to LHR. Also about the secondment from LGW to LHR that it will give the crew an "insight" of what's important to keep.

Where were LHR when they were changing the T&C's at LGW? They couldn't care less! Why should LGW bother about what's happening at LHR?

It's hypocrisy.

Nuigini,

Unfortunately it's always been the case of this scenario. LGW gets "sold" down the river, but nobody cares. Any kind of proposed change to LHR t&c's - drama and "must support LHR" cries all over the land.

Personally, I think the only reasons LGW crew would want to transfer are:

- they live closer to LHR so shorter commute
- earn more money

If we earned the same money, I think people would stay at LGW, as it's a great base.

The frustrating thing as well, is that if crew stayed at LGW to fight our corner, we'd have more of a chance of improving t&c's. But because LHR is sold to them as "golden runways", they scurry up there asap to earn more money. I don't blame them, everyone is entitled to do whatever they like to improve/live their lives. I must add though, that a fair amount of people have regretted their decicion and would like to come back, but are not allowed...

Gg

Juud,

On a 3-class 777, we have 5 crew to 240 pax (traveller and traveller +). One is a Purser running the galley, 4 main crew in the cabin delivering drink/food etc. Some people will think it's easy being in the galley (doing "nothing", but if the Purser does the job properly, there is plenty to do)

On 737 with 147 pax, we regularly have 3 crew (one Purser and 2 Main crew). Purser is required in the cabin.

This is from LGW.

Hope this clarifies.

Gg

Club World - 40 seats
World Traveller Plus - 24 seats
World Traveller - 216

There are 3 galleys: At Doors 1 (CW), Doors 2 (CW and WTP+) and Doors 4 (WT). That's how it's been done whenever I worked on it previously, which almost never happens. I work out of LHR and most crew get very confused on it!

In comparison, minimum crew on an A319 up the road at LHR is 4 (126 seats), rising to 6 on a short sector.

Juud,

You're making me think here... :uhoh:

777 3-class: 40 in Club- 5 crew in total (including CM and 1 Purser) - 2 dedicated galleys. 216 in Traveller/24 in Traveller+ - 5 crew in total (incl 1 Purser) - 1 galley in rear of the aircraft.

777 4-class: 14 in First - 3 crew - one galley. 48 in Club - 4 crew (incl CM and Purser) - one galley. 40 in Traveller+, 124 (?) Traveller - 4 crew (incl 1 Purser) - one galley.

Been a while since I was on 4 class, whence hazy on amount of seats in wt, sorry.

Gg

Glamgirl,

Unfortunately it has always been like that and it really makes me sad. Some crew at LHR are going on about getting support and sympathy from LGW because our T&C's have to be defended before it will also affect them (!).

I'm based at LHR and this is an ongoing discussion on almost every flight and every single time I have been shouted down whenever I have asked them why the crew at LGW should care because nobody was there for them when they had their T&C's changed! LHR couldn't have cared less as it was none of their business and nobody "would dream of transferring to LGW"!

Nuigini,

You are so right. I'm sorry you get critisism for your opinions, but good for you for standing up for what you believe. I've even had critisism on MY flights from LHR crew commuting, and that is taking the biscuit.

I would like to point out to everyone else, that I don't believe all crew at LHR are like this, it's unfortunate that a minority makes it so unpleasant.

Gg

It is apparent the crewing levels differ from base to base and airline to airline.

A while ago I flew LHR-NCE on a 319 with 5 c/c I cannot remeber the split but it was a smallish club cabin of about 20 seats, 2 c/c in club with 3 crew working in the 90 seat or so tourist cabin which was far from full (perhaps they had a large club load on the return hence so many c/c)

In contrast a few days later I flew back to LGW on a 737-400 that was full with again a small club cabin of about 15 seats but only 3 cabin crew on the entire aircraft. I in club and just 2 serving the 130 or so tourist pax. I was surpirsed to see only 2 c/c for so many tourist pax. If there were more c/c on board I did not see them.

Then again more recently I flew from LCY to Nice on a 146 on an aircraft on lease to BA with the crew from the airline the aircraft was leased from. There were only 2 cabin crew. I in club and 1 in tourist. I think the split was probably 30/70, they managed to do the job though, the a/c was about 70% full.

The crewing level does vary!

The A319 and A320 have at least 4 crew and the number is actually regulated depending on which trip the aircraft is doing and obviously also the load. For an AMS you would have 6 crew (2 in EC and 4 in ET) due to the short flight time and the service onboard.

Go to LGW and you will see that the aircraft always has less crew. Their 777 has either 10 or 11 crew whilst LHR has at least 11 and at the most 13.

Ironically, on the A319 from LGW to AMS, you will have 3 crew, despite the short flight time and service onboard, unless the club load exceeds 15.... :{

As nuigini says, the crewing level on shorthaul is complicated for both bases and depends on aircraft type/variation, club load and flight time. To those onboard, it may sometimes seem like we are overloaded with crew when there are 5 crew for 40 odd pax, but you can usually guarantee that the other sector would have been chocka block full.

And there, I think, we have part of the crux of the problem. The one word that has kept popping up is complicated. And so far, we have only really covered LGW T&C's in any detail. LHR crew, apart from the lovely nuigini, have been suspiciously quiet. Yet Carnage Matey has correctly pointed out that LGW is the "Simple" fleet, for want of a better description.

I can only imagine that those outside of BA are looking at all this in complete bewilderment. 3 fleets of the same airline with so many differences to their terms and conditions. To outsiders, including our shareholders, it must border on the ridiculous! In my opinion, we must streamline our operation if we are to survive as an airline in the future.


Jsl

I can see why the short range aircraft have more crew due to the short sector times and a high club load but I cannot see why the LGW 777 needs less crew than the LHR 777 unless the LHR 777 has more seats or a different configuration that requires more crew.

Presemably the cabin products are the same for services from both bases or perhaps the LHR 777's fly longer sectors than the LGW 777's do.

Gg, Please reread my posts. I have only just damned those who pay you so much less at LGW but I am sorry you resent that. As for my attitude to flightdeck. I have also shown my support for those T & Cs not being stolen. What I am trying to get across to you is your defence of BA rather sticks in my throat. Here we have a company we suspect is about to turn the CC over and you are posting your gratitude for actually having a job. You do rather sound like headgirl.
CM, I have a problem with any group who want CC to suffer financially.

You'll find that given so many other departments have given so much in terms of increased productivity, job cuts and pay reform, they have a problem with CC saying "No change! Why pick on us?". BASSA still try to hold the company to ransom at any opportunity. If they'd been more receptive to progressive change in the past the cabin crew community wouldn't be facing the huge change it is now. The militant unionism which reared it's ugly head during Februarys snow disruption only served to strengthen the resolve of the board to force change.

Pinkaroo,

I'll try and explain this again (for the last time). I'm not defending the company per se. However, I do realise that something needs to be done to remain as an airline and to remain profitable. All other departments are getting cut, so why do you think CC are different? I don't necessarily agree with it, I'd love for all of us to earn £100K a year but it's not sustainable.

Try having a chat with a loader, engineer, MT driver, check-in staff and ask what's happening in their department. It's not pretty, and I'm having to watch several friends in different department being paid off and most likely not able to get another job in the forseeable future. This is what makes me grateful to have a job in the current climate.

What you do need to understand, is that the company is getting seriously fed up with this "NO!!NO!!NO!!" attitude from unions. At least if the unions turned up at meetings and behaved like adults and negotiated properly, you would have a better chance of getting somewhere. This doesn't mean I (or anyone else for that matter) want you to lose money, but there are obvious (to me anyway) areas where money could be saved from IFCE. You may not want to see it for yourself, and that's your perogative, but I'm being realistic here.

Gg

3-crew worked on inter-German 737 services in the 80s/90s. Full hot meal and very short flight times.

Gg, How do you know they are getting seriously fed up with your perception of the Bassa attitude? Have you had a personal conversation directly with members of the management negotiating team or are you just repeating what you think they feel? As regards your definition of "properly negotiating" don't you just mean give away hard earned T & Cs you do not have at LGW? These T & Cs were part of many people's contract and to lose each one is a reduction in contracted rights. Don't be so keen to see them disappear.

Pinkaroo,

No, that's not how I look at negotiation. Proper negotiation includes discussion and give and take. Company wants one thing, union wants another, talk, discuss, come to agreement. That's how it works in the real world. We didn't really have much of a choice when it came to LGW, as a certain union starting with B couldn't give a flying monkey as to what happens at LGW. Most of the people who voted FOR singlefleet were LGW world wide and who couldn't wait to get different routes and easy option transfer to LHR.

I know your t&c's were hard fought for etc etc, but some of your t&c's are from BOAC days for crying out loud. It's not sustainable, end of story. Give me a good reason for getting destination payment for Dallas and Houston, please. And don't say it's about the type of pax, because I've done that route. That's just one of the things I can see the company cutting to be honest.

I've talked to both union reps and management, as I don't just listen to one side of the story. I listen to both sides and then make up my own mind as to what I want to believe. And for the record, the £6K loss per crew member the union is spouting is rubbish. Do the math, it doesn't add up. It's not as simple as dividing the company's wanted savings by amount of crew.

Gg

A friend of mine very recently spoke to both Willie Walsh and Keith Williams on the matter, and they were determined that changes would happen, regardless of whether BASSA tried to stonewall the company. Do you require more evidence that the management are fed up with BASSAs attitude?

I don't have hostility towards anyone. I am, however, fed up with some attitudes from LHR crew, and from the amount of rubbish the union spouts, as well as crew not thinking for themselves but taking what the union says as gospel.

I asked you for a good reason for getting destination payment for Dallas/Houston, which you haven't given me, so I'm guessing there is no good reason. The only reason I think it should not be there in the first place is because I seriously can't see why there is a destination payment for those routes, not because I'm not getting it.

We have been left to "rot" as you say, at LGW. So, why should we back you guys up when you scream "STRIKE!" at the top of your voices? I went to a big union meeting a while back, and the convener said "we're going for strike. We don't know what for yet, but we're doing it". How is that good representation from the unions?

By the way, I'd like to point out that long haul at LGW is the department making the most money at the moment. Go figure.

I would like to make it absolutely clear (as you haven't understood me yet), that I do not want you to lose your t&c's because I'm not getting as good deal as you. I'm just saying things have to change to make sure we all have a job at the end of the day. If that's a crime, I'm guilty, but last time I checked, it wasn't a crime having an opinion.

Gg

Another insulting thing about DFW and IAH, apart from the destination payment, is the fact when these came to LHR both of them all of the sudden gave three days off. At LGW both of these had given two days off. Same case with ATL as it has now come to LHR.

LGW is the most profitable fleet of all three. After that are LHR EF and LHR WW. Fact!

Why do I feel for LGW even though I have always been based at LHR? Because I have since the very beginning noticed the major differences between the bases. We are the same company and we SHOULD work under the same conditions with the same crewing levels. End of story.

Not really.

Every 777 service from LHR leave with anything between 11 and 13 CC depending on configuration and not taking into consideration any load factor. It's the same at LGW as they either leave with 10 or 11 CC depending on configuration.

Many of the LGW trips go to the Caribbean and they can be pretty long.

The shortest trip for LHR is to TLV and even that one has 12 CC.

Is that because the CSD/Cabin Manager has a working position on the LGW services whereas at LHR they do not?

the singlefleet operation works at LGW beacuse we do short-range longhaul that checks in the morning and all clears by the latest 10:30 in the morning. Also its a smaller base with a lot less crew than LHR and we have a bid system that can almost give us what we want.
Having a singlefleet operation at LHR becomes more complicated because of the varying destinations/times zones/check in times and when you factor in long-range trips such as sin-syd. I cannot see having the whole of LHR on a singlefleet operation with a bid system working ???

Glam Girl

You speak a lot of sense which is nice to hear.

I can't actually say why they removed one crew member from the 777 at LGW because I honestly don't know. Unfortunately LGW has always previously been the target for the management because the union(s) haven't been that strong there as the one at LHR.

I think it's a good idea that the CM is actually part of the service! Some of the CSD on WW couldn't care less and only leave their office once an hour to their hourly cabin check. Having said that, there are also some great CSD that really help out and take part of the service.

aar4n5,

LH does mixed flying all around the clock and they also have a bidding system for their crew. They don't fly to Australia but still they have some really long trips all over the world.

I thought LGW were in the same union as LHR c/c are.

The CSD on my last flight in World Traveller was actually serving meals in that cabin and she chatted to the passengers which was very nice. Pity they are not all like that.

On the previous 3 flights I have heard the CSD's on the cabin announcement system but never saw one enter the traveller cabin unless going to/from crew rest area. I guess they must have been helping out in Club?

Project Columbus IS comming, WONT go away so start preparing.

Obviously, it will mean change and for the better for Willie. Nothing gets changed unless it benefits BA.

Hes taken on the regions and won. Now its the Cabin Crews turn, and who knows, Flightdeck next...

It's flight crew, not flight deck. I have cabin crew under my command not cabin deckhands.

And Silverstreak, your statements really do add nothing to what we already know.
So polish up, change is coming and it'll be painful for us all. No glee, no ''other staff groups/fence peeking''. We're all going to give.

Debate/Constructive dialogue might get you a half palatable deal.