BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair enough, in that case it must just be the cabin crew community themselves or their elected reps on LH that are set against the idea. If, as people here seem to suggest, the idea is so evidently beneficial for BA, the only bump in the road must be BASSA. It is obvious from the evidence presented that BA have no objection to CC bidding, so the obstacle must be the cabin crew themselves.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Charon
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA have good reason for making very little effort to introduce any kind of bidding system to LHR WW fleet. The costs of building such a sytem are/were prohibitive due to the complexity of the current WW agreement.
It would have required a custom built program not one off the shelf used by another airline.
BA has wanted rid of said agreement for years. Spending any kind money on something you don't want or need would be pointless.
Of course, if the current WW fleet provided the savings themselves to fund the project then that's a different matter.
It would have required a custom built program not one off the shelf used by another airline.
BA has wanted rid of said agreement for years. Spending any kind money on something you don't want or need would be pointless.
Of course, if the current WW fleet provided the savings themselves to fund the project then that's a different matter.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Juan Tugoh,
I think it was a lot more complicated as because of the cost BA wanted large changes in return.
I wish the union had bothered to ask it's membership how it felt but they seem incapable of that.
Yellowdog,
I think the lack of knowledge about our agreements is because a lot of the posters on here are neither BA cabin crew or BA pilots, just interested parties.
MFCREW,
Please don't lose heart because I would put a bet on two days being brought in soon enough. After a block of six days on E/F I am often shattered and that is without any long haul time changes. I personally don't believe that kind of rostering is sustainable on a long term basis. We shall see. Good luck and I hope you enjoy your time in BA. You have joined at a strange time in BA history but it will eventually get sorted and then things will calm down.
I think it was a lot more complicated as because of the cost BA wanted large changes in return.
I wish the union had bothered to ask it's membership how it felt but they seem incapable of that.
Yellowdog,
I think the lack of knowledge about our agreements is because a lot of the posters on here are neither BA cabin crew or BA pilots, just interested parties.
MFCREW,
Please don't lose heart because I would put a bet on two days being brought in soon enough. After a block of six days on E/F I am often shattered and that is without any long haul time changes. I personally don't believe that kind of rostering is sustainable on a long term basis. We shall see. Good luck and I hope you enjoy your time in BA. You have joined at a strange time in BA history but it will eventually get sorted and then things will calm down.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Betty Girl I was being sarcastic, the medium of a forum is perhaps not the best for expressing such subtleties.
The point is that with the current WW agreement there is no way that BA will pay out for a bidding system. Those who are trying to persuade themselves that it would be in BA's interests to make their lives easier without giving anything up are being foolish.
BA has a rostering system that works. If the cabin crew want a bid system for LH they will have to "buy" it by giving up something that will save BA an equivalent amount of money.
The point is that with the current WW agreement there is no way that BA will pay out for a bidding system. Those who are trying to persuade themselves that it would be in BA's interests to make their lives easier without giving anything up are being foolish.
BA has a rostering system that works. If the cabin crew want a bid system for LH they will have to "buy" it by giving up something that will save BA an equivalent amount of money.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: leafy suburbs
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MFCREW
Revisit your roster and check how many hours are between the flights you mention. Is it more than 48 hours? If so, I make that 2 days off.
With many workers in the airline industry doing shift work, time loses a bit of its meaning (well it does with me). I occasionaly wonder what day it is, is it the weekend, a public holiday etc. So if you are told you will have 2 days off, most peoples thinking is 2 DAYS 2 NIGHTS, but as I say, 48 hours is 2 days.
Revisit your roster and check how many hours are between the flights you mention. Is it more than 48 hours? If so, I make that 2 days off.
With many workers in the airline industry doing shift work, time loses a bit of its meaning (well it does with me). I occasionaly wonder what day it is, is it the weekend, a public holiday etc. So if you are told you will have 2 days off, most peoples thinking is 2 DAYS 2 NIGHTS, but as I say, 48 hours is 2 days.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Revisit your roster and check how many hours are between the flights you mention. Is it more than 48 hours? If so, I make that 2 days off.
MFCREW
Thanks for the clarification, that answers that.
I thought that since you seemed concerned about the 'is it 1 or 2 days off?' thing, that you might have the answers closer to hand (seeing as you have just started) or you would be proactive in getting the clarification. Anyway, enough of that .....
Whatever happens, good luck with MF, and be certain that there are many in BA who welcome your collective arrival, and look forward to meeting you 'on the line'.
Thanks for the clarification, that answers that.
I thought that since you seemed concerned about the 'is it 1 or 2 days off?' thing, that you might have the answers closer to hand (seeing as you have just started) or you would be proactive in getting the clarification. Anyway, enough of that .....
Whatever happens, good luck with MF, and be certain that there are many in BA who welcome your collective arrival, and look forward to meeting you 'on the line'.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: london
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basically, if you get back from a longhaul trip at 7am on Monday morning, you can legally depart on another longhaul trip on Wednesday morning
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: leafy suburbs
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But we tend not to cross too many times zones in the process.
You may leave an overseas station at midday and have an eight hour day, but at your home base it is midnight and you are effectively working "nights"
Not being CC, I would guess time off between flights, and in what time zone you last flew, are factored in to what time off you have at home base.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The race to the bottom is something that we can be proud of in the UK?
Big Airways CC go on strike in the UK...with the recent merger with Iberia, how long do you think it might be for cheaper Spanish CC to show up for duty?
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: uk
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just an addition to the bidding debate:
The only group of BA cabin crew who DON'T have a bidding system is WW LHR.
EF LHR, MF LHR and SF LGW all have a version of the Carmen preferential bidding system, which is not based on seniority, but by allocating points indicating which trip type or destination you want most.
The EF LHR version, for example, works well because there's no clear "popular trips". Some crew like earlies, anathma to others. Some people like 3 day trips, others "there and backs". Some like long days like Moscows to maximise flying hours in a block, some like Southern Europe, others domestics, Scandanavia etc. etc. There's no great financial penalty whichever destination or trip type you choose, as the meal allowances (the biggest allowance type on EF) is mainly Euros or £ and evens up over a month. In other words you don't have everyone bidding for the same things, so the work generally speaking gets covered, yet people mainly get a roster they are happy with.
The reason BA has not been able to reach agreement with the unions over a similar system for WW LHR, is because Longhaul have very clear "popular trips" because of the allowance system ie. everyone wants SIN, BKK, HKG NRT and nobody wants anything in Africa. Unless you change the allowance system, EFs system on WW would not work. In fact a bidding system was suggested by the company, as one of the benefits of moving to an hourly rate, when we had that debate a few years ago. SF LGW have an hourly rate, hence it works.
Unfortunately the hourly rate deal on the table then will never be back on the table - it was too good to repeat. In fact it was described even by CC89 reps at the time as a "no - brainer for WW crew, less so for EF" and recommended by them, yet was rejected by BASSA. That can be seen as a huge mistake by them now, as, not only would WW have bidding, but which routes are transfered to MF would be of much less importance.
The only group of BA cabin crew who DON'T have a bidding system is WW LHR.
EF LHR, MF LHR and SF LGW all have a version of the Carmen preferential bidding system, which is not based on seniority, but by allocating points indicating which trip type or destination you want most.
The EF LHR version, for example, works well because there's no clear "popular trips". Some crew like earlies, anathma to others. Some people like 3 day trips, others "there and backs". Some like long days like Moscows to maximise flying hours in a block, some like Southern Europe, others domestics, Scandanavia etc. etc. There's no great financial penalty whichever destination or trip type you choose, as the meal allowances (the biggest allowance type on EF) is mainly Euros or £ and evens up over a month. In other words you don't have everyone bidding for the same things, so the work generally speaking gets covered, yet people mainly get a roster they are happy with.
The reason BA has not been able to reach agreement with the unions over a similar system for WW LHR, is because Longhaul have very clear "popular trips" because of the allowance system ie. everyone wants SIN, BKK, HKG NRT and nobody wants anything in Africa. Unless you change the allowance system, EFs system on WW would not work. In fact a bidding system was suggested by the company, as one of the benefits of moving to an hourly rate, when we had that debate a few years ago. SF LGW have an hourly rate, hence it works.
Unfortunately the hourly rate deal on the table then will never be back on the table - it was too good to repeat. In fact it was described even by CC89 reps at the time as a "no - brainer for WW crew, less so for EF" and recommended by them, yet was rejected by BASSA. That can be seen as a huge mistake by them now, as, not only would WW have bidding, but which routes are transfered to MF would be of much less importance.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beagle,
What you say is so right.
The hourly rate, on offer back then, would have been great for WW but not so good for E/F crew unless you only did three day trips.
411A,
Iberia cabin crew are paid more that BA crew.
If you compare BA cabin crew wages (especially those of crew that joined after 97 but also all others) many of the other European 'Flag' carriers cabin crew earn more than BA cabin crew.
What you say is so right.
The hourly rate, on offer back then, would have been great for WW but not so good for E/F crew unless you only did three day trips.
411A,
Iberia cabin crew are paid more that BA crew.
If you compare BA cabin crew wages (especially those of crew that joined after 97 but also all others) many of the other European 'Flag' carriers cabin crew earn more than BA cabin crew.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it could possibly be mixed fleet going the other way -
Iberia’s costly crew will be the focus of attention for Willie Walsh - Times Online
Iberia’s costly crew will be the focus of attention for Willie Walsh - Times Online
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for reminding us of that article Litebulbs.
Note the average for BA cabin crew of 29K. The average wage in the London area is 28K. This average, of course, includes all the crew on pre 97 contracts, so as these more expensive crew leave, the BA average would come down as well and probably already has, as since that article many took severance. Post 97 cabin crew already have a much lower average.
My point is that crew that joined after 97 are actually not on particularly high salaries now already. I really do believe that the new Mixed fleet salaries of £11k and less remuneration than our current Gatwick crew, will result in good new M/F crew leaving because they will find it very difficult to live in, the very expensive, LHR area or commute from elsewhere.
I want BA to survive and I did not think striking was a good thing to do but I also want BA to continue to give good customer service. In my personal view, crew that are badly paid and tired will ultimately not be happy crew and it is a happy and well motivated crew that serves our customers best.
I know that all our new Mixed Fleet crew are very keen and will be great crew so I hope BA sees sense and improves their agreements because I want our airline to continue to be one of the best.
That is of course my own personal opinion.
Note the average for BA cabin crew of 29K. The average wage in the London area is 28K. This average, of course, includes all the crew on pre 97 contracts, so as these more expensive crew leave, the BA average would come down as well and probably already has, as since that article many took severance. Post 97 cabin crew already have a much lower average.
My point is that crew that joined after 97 are actually not on particularly high salaries now already. I really do believe that the new Mixed fleet salaries of £11k and less remuneration than our current Gatwick crew, will result in good new M/F crew leaving because they will find it very difficult to live in, the very expensive, LHR area or commute from elsewhere.
I want BA to survive and I did not think striking was a good thing to do but I also want BA to continue to give good customer service. In my personal view, crew that are badly paid and tired will ultimately not be happy crew and it is a happy and well motivated crew that serves our customers best.
I know that all our new Mixed Fleet crew are very keen and will be great crew so I hope BA sees sense and improves their agreements because I want our airline to continue to be one of the best.
That is of course my own personal opinion.