BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: LAM/BIG/BNN hold
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I had a £1 from all the people in BA (excluding pilots or cabin crew) who has mentioned over the last week that any militant/striking members of the cabin crew should be sacked (and that is the polite way of putting it), I would be a very rich person(almost like DH is from the BASSA subs!).
It is amazing/sad that many of the BASSA members do not know the strength of feeling in BA ...
Mixed fleet are the future of BA and they are already an asset and whilst it cannot be easy for them at the moment, the must hold faith that they will be the future. There are many people applying to be crew in MF and if they are good, (long term) they have a good career ahead of them
Its BA train set, adapt or leave - harsh perhaps but we are in a different world now to 19(cc)89 ...
LTF
It is amazing/sad that many of the BASSA members do not know the strength of feeling in BA ...
Mixed fleet are the future of BA and they are already an asset and whilst it cannot be easy for them at the moment, the must hold faith that they will be the future. There are many people applying to be crew in MF and if they are good, (long term) they have a good career ahead of them
Its BA train set, adapt or leave - harsh perhaps but we are in a different world now to 19(cc)89 ...
LTF
A couple of suggested changes to the first paragraph of the BASSA message from Hubert Davenport's post might make it more accurate:
It is clear that BASSA are out of control. They represent the worst excesses of Trade Unionism not seen since the 1970s. Where the banks got involved in a crooked exploitation of the financial system, BASSA has sought to bring down their employer through hissy fits, petty disputes and largely failed strikes. BASSA has a hapless senior rep, who has lost his BA job over his outrageous behaviour, but he still refuses to acknowledge responsibility for his vile actions and words. There is absolutely no doubt that the BASSA and Unite have made some disastrous decisions and the company has suffered through lost bookings. The negative publicity for British Airways and the damage sustained to the brand and the company's image, is unimaginable
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in between
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what about last weeks " as a union we wouldn't like to tell you what to do so it is up to you to decide if this offer is acceptable bla bla"
How can anyone with a single brain cell not see how often they contradict themselves, lie, manipulate, cheat and bully?
How can anyone with a single brain cell not see how often they contradict themselves, lie, manipulate, cheat and bully?
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Europe
Age: 53
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, this is what BASSA choose to publish to get their desired result:
No mention of what the strike might be able to achieve or how, given UNITE reps have already stated the latest offer was 'the best available in the current climate'.
No mention of how they intend to de-link this ballot from the last strikes in order to keep the strikers legally protected.
Re-hashing the tired old argument about fuel hedging. Extra bonus point to anyone from BASSA who can explain clearly what fuel hedging actually is, how it works and what BA use it for. Go on, try and explain it rather than just repeating the 'we lost money one year' line.
Admitting (finally) that the strategy all along has been 'keep saying NO until the figures get better, than shout loudly about how cost savings are not needed any more'.
Peddling the myth that BA has an anti union agenda and that IR in BA is at an all time low. No, that's just BASSA. Other parts of the airline are still able to get positive results on areas of concern by engaging and negotiating.
Trying to make their members believe that everyone in BA feels like they do. We don't. The vast majority of BA employees are on the side of the management, not the cabin crew. (VCC anyone?)
Re-hashing the myth that this is about forcing crew onto inferior terms and conditions. Really? I thought they'd been offered a pay rise, unlike most departments.
Well done BASSA, well argued and not at all emotive ill-informed drivel.
No mention of what the strike might be able to achieve or how, given UNITE reps have already stated the latest offer was 'the best available in the current climate'.
No mention of how they intend to de-link this ballot from the last strikes in order to keep the strikers legally protected.
Re-hashing the tired old argument about fuel hedging. Extra bonus point to anyone from BASSA who can explain clearly what fuel hedging actually is, how it works and what BA use it for. Go on, try and explain it rather than just repeating the 'we lost money one year' line.
Admitting (finally) that the strategy all along has been 'keep saying NO until the figures get better, than shout loudly about how cost savings are not needed any more'.
Peddling the myth that BA has an anti union agenda and that IR in BA is at an all time low. No, that's just BASSA. Other parts of the airline are still able to get positive results on areas of concern by engaging and negotiating.
Trying to make their members believe that everyone in BA feels like they do. We don't. The vast majority of BA employees are on the side of the management, not the cabin crew. (VCC anyone?)
Re-hashing the myth that this is about forcing crew onto inferior terms and conditions. Really? I thought they'd been offered a pay rise, unlike most departments.
Well done BASSA, well argued and not at all emotive ill-informed drivel.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Playing the man", i.e. a personal attack on the opposition rather than addressing the issues under discussion has always been a weak rhetorical tool. It tends to suggest that there is no counter argument that will withstand close scrutiny. It also attempts to garner support to oneself based on an emotional rather than a rational basis. Sadly and most critically for BASSA supporters it is a tacit admission that the cause is lost and that it is time for last gasp measures, a desperate last throw of the dice.
It is also interesting that this is now "a revolt against management greed, incompetence, bullying and harassment." Perhaps an attempt to pave the way for a ballot on issues that are not linked to the previous strikes. I doubt it will succeed but it seems they will try. Trouble with a revolt is that it cannot succeed unless the regime is changed; there is little to suggest this will happen.
It is also interesting that this is now "a revolt against management greed, incompetence, bullying and harassment." Perhaps an attempt to pave the way for a ballot on issues that are not linked to the previous strikes. I doubt it will succeed but it seems they will try. Trouble with a revolt is that it cannot succeed unless the regime is changed; there is little to suggest this will happen.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is clear that Willie Walsh and the Board members of BA who appointed him, are out of control. They represent the worst excesses of Capitalism not seen since the banking disaster. Where the banks got involved in a crooked exploitation of the financial system, BA has sought to profit through rigging fuel surcharges and cargo pricing. In both cases, British Airways has been heavily fined on either sides of the Atlantic, and as far away as Australia. Yet apart from one fall-guy, a hapless BA senior manager by the name of Keith Packer, who was jailed in the USA for 8 months over cargo price fixing, no other senior members of British Airways have taken responsibility for their illegal actions and activity
plus over £1bn lost in inappropriate fuel hedging positions.
the share price is depressed because of his actions, and rather than riding high out of the recession
Where are the profit sharing schemes for ordinary employees in BA?
BA's cabin crew are being victimised solely for the profit motive
Judges who are supposed to use common sense and intellect in their deliberations, have cast aside legitimate and lawful democratic ballots because of flimsy technicalities. That is where we are as a democracy in the United Kingdom and it stinks. Unscrupulous employers use this avenue to fight a dispute that they have deliberately created though imposition, using High Court judges to bust unions.
But the fact is that MF should be a glaring example of what life would be like in BA, without union representation. For all those crew who went to work during the dispute, this ultimately will be your reward.
Are you prepared as decent people to allow this dictatorship in a democracy to continue? Is it right that you are coerced and bullied into accepting inferior pay and conditions, AFTER the company has turned the corner and is once again, as predicted, making substantial profits? Is it right that your democratically elected union representatives and your union, are trampled over by the mantra, ego and dogmatism of one person? Is it right that colleagues have been suspended and sacked just for supporting the dispute?
This is why VCC exist, this is why none of the rest of the company support the BASSA line. I don't have any axe to grind with the CC personally, I have always maintained they do an excellent job on the whole. I have flown with MF and they are, indeed, excellent. But then so are 99% of our normal crew as well. Whilst I fully recognise that SH crews are generally not as militant as the LH crews it always seems a shame that the majority get such a bad reputation by the sad, purile and nasty actions of the minority.
I really hope we are seeing the end game play out here and the demise of BASSA will lead to something good with proper, correct and sensible representation for the CC.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: hampshire
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A new low
This is the most far out post by BASSA so far, this dispute is far from over IMO.
However I don't think this is not a good thing for crew, its a bit like slipping down a steep hill, ballets and offers are an opportunity to dig heels in and resolve the problem.
Unfortunately My Holley and co are sliding down on their backs with their legs in the air, hurtling towards the cliff.
Oh and one more thing:-
2500 duty hours, minimum estimated wage is 17k. Thats a MINIMUM of 6.80 for EVERY hour away from base on average, so thats every hour at work and asleep downroute! UK minimum wage is 5.93, and I don't think the people who pay that will pay you for being asleep!
However I don't think this is not a good thing for crew, its a bit like slipping down a steep hill, ballets and offers are an opportunity to dig heels in and resolve the problem.
Unfortunately My Holley and co are sliding down on their backs with their legs in the air, hurtling towards the cliff.
Oh and one more thing:-
No decent wages or conditions, just exploitation of unemployed people or others,
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scapa
I don't think you know what a duty hour is. It does not include time down-route. It is only the time that you are actually working. I agree that it still amounts to £6.80 per hour if you assume 2500 duty hours, but it does not include time in the hotel. If it did, then it would be a cushy job indeed.
If a cabin crew member pays £50 a month for their mobile telephone, but then finds the same deal for £20 a month, are they going to stick with their current provider or move to the new contract? Why should BA be forced to stay on the old contract? I agree that it is unfair to just cut a current employee's salary, but they are not doing this. Crew seem to be fearful that this will happen in the future due to the new contracts being so much more efficient. I have to agree that there is some threat of this happening, but this is precisely the reason why BASSA should have recognised that letting New Fleet in the door needs to be avoided at all costs, and they should have been biting BA's hand off to renegotiate the current contracts. Had they allowed BA enough, New Fleet would not be here.
If BA can get people to do the job to the standard that they require, for the salaries that they are offering, then that is the end of the discussion in my opinion. If they think they can earn more elsewhere, people will leave, or even not apply in the first place. It is known as market forces, and that is how the real world works.
I don't think you know what a duty hour is. It does not include time down-route. It is only the time that you are actually working. I agree that it still amounts to £6.80 per hour if you assume 2500 duty hours, but it does not include time in the hotel. If it did, then it would be a cushy job indeed.
If a cabin crew member pays £50 a month for their mobile telephone, but then finds the same deal for £20 a month, are they going to stick with their current provider or move to the new contract? Why should BA be forced to stay on the old contract? I agree that it is unfair to just cut a current employee's salary, but they are not doing this. Crew seem to be fearful that this will happen in the future due to the new contracts being so much more efficient. I have to agree that there is some threat of this happening, but this is precisely the reason why BASSA should have recognised that letting New Fleet in the door needs to be avoided at all costs, and they should have been biting BA's hand off to renegotiate the current contracts. Had they allowed BA enough, New Fleet would not be here.
If BA can get people to do the job to the standard that they require, for the salaries that they are offering, then that is the end of the discussion in my opinion. If they think they can earn more elsewhere, people will leave, or even not apply in the first place. It is known as market forces, and that is how the real world works.
CC Top
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wild blue yonder
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As you all know, this thread is not for discussing the pilots“ remuneration.
To refresh certain posters' memory, their posting rights have been suspended for a few days.
----------------------
CC Forum Moderators
To refresh certain posters' memory, their posting rights have been suspended for a few days.
----------------------
CC Forum Moderators
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: hampshire
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GS-Alpha
My understanding of a duty hour as it applies to Mixed Fleet is any hour from check in to check out, this includes those asleep downroute.
Hence BA's estimation of renumeration is based on 2500 duty hours at 2.40 per hour.
If these 2500 duty hours were solely spent 'at work' I would imagine most crews would hit their 900 flying hours per year legal limit fairly quickly!
Hence BA's estimation of renumeration is based on 2500 duty hours at 2.40 per hour.
If these 2500 duty hours were solely spent 'at work' I would imagine most crews would hit their 900 flying hours per year legal limit fairly quickly!
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scappa,
I take it you are not flying crew.
If we used your calculations on E/F some current cabin crew and pilots would be working in ecess of 100+ hours a week, which would be more like 4000-5000+ hours a year. On WW fleet it would be even higher.
So NO duty hours do not include the time we are in the hotel.
I take it you are not flying crew.
If we used your calculations on E/F some current cabin crew and pilots would be working in ecess of 100+ hours a week, which would be more like 4000-5000+ hours a year. On WW fleet it would be even higher.
So NO duty hours do not include the time we are in the hotel.
Last edited by Betty girl; 15th Nov 2010 at 15:30.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: in a house
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The on-board performance is assessed by the SCCM every 120 days and, while I accept that the standard of the assessment varies from person to person, I suspect that the same will apply to MF.
I also believe that their £2.40 per hr is swipe in - to clear.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scapa
2500 / 52weeks = 48hours per week. If your definition of duty hour is correct, that would mean a 10am report on Saturday to be back at base again at 10am on Monday, and have the rest of the week off thanks very much.
Something tells me BA are hoping for a little better efficiency than that.
£2.40 from swipe in to clear I agree with, as that is the way that Gatwick currently do it. My point though is that these hours are not duty hours, and so will be a lot more than 2500 per year.
2500 / 52weeks = 48hours per week. If your definition of duty hour is correct, that would mean a 10am report on Saturday to be back at base again at 10am on Monday, and have the rest of the week off thanks very much.
Something tells me BA are hoping for a little better efficiency than that.
£2.40 from swipe in to clear I agree with, as that is the way that Gatwick currently do it. My point though is that these hours are not duty hours, and so will be a lot more than 2500 per year.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying hours = 900hrs
Duty hours = 2500hrs (MF). 2000hrs (Other fleets)
Duty hours are whilst on company time, whether flying, downroute or in the office.
MF will have the same pay system as LGW, where hourly pay is paid from check-in to clear, regardless if it's a one day 2 sector trip or longer where a nightstop or two is involved.
Edited to clarify: the 900/2000/2500 hrs numbers are the MAX per year, not a minimum.
Duty hours = 2500hrs (MF). 2000hrs (Other fleets)
Duty hours are whilst on company time, whether flying, downroute or in the office.
MF will have the same pay system as LGW, where hourly pay is paid from check-in to clear, regardless if it's a one day 2 sector trip or longer where a nightstop or two is involved.
Edited to clarify: the 900/2000/2500 hrs numbers are the MAX per year, not a minimum.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MIDLGW,
You are not correct. Duty Hour are the hours you are on duty.
It does not include the time you are down route in the hotel.
If it did we would all be doing 5000 hours a year.
The hourly meal rate IS however paid for all the time between check in to check out and this dose include the time in a hotel but this is not DUTY HOURS. They are two different things.
Flying hours are from chocks to chocks.
Duty hours are from check-in to either check out time or 30 mins after chocks if you are down route.
You are not correct. Duty Hour are the hours you are on duty.
It does not include the time you are down route in the hotel.
If it did we would all be doing 5000 hours a year.
The hourly meal rate IS however paid for all the time between check in to check out and this dose include the time in a hotel but this is not DUTY HOURS. They are two different things.
Flying hours are from chocks to chocks.
Duty hours are from check-in to either check out time or 30 mins after chocks if you are down route.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To clarify
The hourly rate is paid from check in to check out for the whole trip.
eg. Check in at midday on tues to check out on midday thurs is 48 hours.
48 x 2.40 = 115.20 , so MF can earn up to 67.60 per day.
Strictly speaking, using CAA terminology, a duty day is from start of briefing to chocks on of last sector.
You are confusing different use of the term "duty" day.
The hourly rate is paid from check in to check out for the whole trip.
eg. Check in at midday on tues to check out on midday thurs is 48 hours.
48 x 2.40 = 115.20 , so MF can earn up to 67.60 per day.
Strictly speaking, using CAA terminology, a duty day is from start of briefing to chocks on of last sector.
You are confusing different use of the term "duty" day.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: My views - Not my employer!
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just for clarity, the pilots receive TAFB payment, that is Time Away From Base.
It starts at check in and ends when you check out after your last duty of the tour. It is this payment that I believe the MF crew will receive. Whether it is by the same name is another matter!
It starts at check in and ends when you check out after your last duty of the tour. It is this payment that I believe the MF crew will receive. Whether it is by the same name is another matter!
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: hampshire
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have reproduced the term from elsewhere which was not an official source so I agree the term 'Duty Hour' is confusing in how it is applied.
The point i was making was that the MF wage is not as poor as BASSA are making out.
BA are using 2500 hours swipe-in to swipe-out per year as a base for their estimate of 17k. Well GSAplha as you have quite rightly said thats not many per week (I would use a 48 weeks as a base for my calculations rather that 52 as people do have to have leave). I would fully expect MF crews to exceed 2500hrs and earn more.
If you worked out the hourly rate based solely on time from report to clear then it would be significantly higher than my previously posted one.
The point i was making was that the MF wage is not as poor as BASSA are making out.
BA are using 2500 hours swipe-in to swipe-out per year as a base for their estimate of 17k. Well GSAplha as you have quite rightly said thats not many per week (I would use a 48 weeks as a base for my calculations rather that 52 as people do have to have leave). I would fully expect MF crews to exceed 2500hrs and earn more.
If you worked out the hourly rate based solely on time from report to clear then it would be significantly higher than my previously posted one.