British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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HV.
What you need to understand is that the 50million savings you offered were not popular with the vast majority of crew, with the exception of some CSD's.
On euro fleet we did not want mixed flying (all the longhaul low value 767 routes) just to preserve CSD on euro fleet.
We were happy working to the new crewing levels on all but a few flights and even thoes now we have been able to master.
We would have accepted :-
Pursers would have been happy to take out a 767 in charge if this had meant protecting our situation and having new joiners on our fleet.
Most crew would have dropped a day off to keep new joiners with us.
But did you try and negotiate. NO!!!! You were only interested in protecting the CSD rank on eurofleet and protecting CSD's on worldwide from having to do a little extra work.
That's why you did not get the support you wanted because many crew could see you were just looking after your own self interests and now we are all in a far worse situation than before.
What you need to understand is that the 50million savings you offered were not popular with the vast majority of crew, with the exception of some CSD's.
On euro fleet we did not want mixed flying (all the longhaul low value 767 routes) just to preserve CSD on euro fleet.
We were happy working to the new crewing levels on all but a few flights and even thoes now we have been able to master.
We would have accepted :-
Pursers would have been happy to take out a 767 in charge if this had meant protecting our situation and having new joiners on our fleet.
Most crew would have dropped a day off to keep new joiners with us.
But did you try and negotiate. NO!!!! You were only interested in protecting the CSD rank on eurofleet and protecting CSD's on worldwide from having to do a little extra work.
That's why you did not get the support you wanted because many crew could see you were just looking after your own self interests and now we are all in a far worse situation than before.
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Perhaps Bridchen you might like to explain what you would do if your new contract pops onto your doormat next week?
So best the BASSA members focus on taking care of themselves and what BASSA members will do when a new contract lands on the doormat. Us non-BASSA members are doing very well without BASSA thankyou. No loss of pay, no loss of staff travel, and a pay rise to boot. I could not be happier in my job.
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My prediction is that LGW shorthaul will be sold off to FlyBe and the long haul routes sent to LHR.
1. Where will FlyBe find the money given their other financial commitments ?
2. Where will the additional slots at LHR be created for BA to allow the extra flights to operate ?
As you assert that other airlines have higher load factors thanks to the industrial action, I don't see slots being relinquished any time soon.
I fear the airline is in a financial stall from which it may never recover.
British Airways today (July 30) presented its interim management statement for the three months ended June 30, 2010.
Period highlights:
Operating loss of £72 million (2009: £94 million)
Strong yield performance in both cargo and passenger business
Loss before tax of £164 million (2009: £148 million)
·Cash balance of £1,749 million, up £35 million from year end
·Pensions agreements approved by the UK Pensions Regulator
·Regulatory approval received for transatlantic joint business and Iberia merger
Ergo.... I think the stall recovery will be straightforward. Martinis all round chaps !
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Betty Girl you seem woefully misinformed. Where did the unions ever accept or request mixed flying? The proposal for mixed flying comes only from BA and has never been accepted by the unions for existing crew members. The other examples you cite about what shorthaul pursers would and wouldn't accept are frankly immaterial too as they have not featured in the discussions. If you want to make a contribution to this highly charged debate it would be better if you came armed with the correct facts and not to post your own views as though they are part of negotiations, as these threads are already soaked in half truths and falsehoods.
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Well you obviously have not even read BASSAs original proposal, you know the one they keep saying would have saved 50 million.
The offer definately brought all 767 aircraft over to eurofleet with all the 767 longhaul routes.
The companies original request, that BASSA were so upset about, created a single supervisory position on Eurofleet having a cabin manager replace CSD's and Pursers. It was after the breakdown of these talks that caused the company to take the Purser off the 767 leaving just the CSD in charge. It was at this time that they reduced all the crew compliments also.
I am sure that there are lots of well informed crew on here that will confirm that BASSA did want longhaul 767 work as part of their proposal and also that the company did want one single supervisory rank on eurofleet.
I think you will find that it is you that is ill informed. Try and find BASSA's offer to BA. It used to be pinned up on the board at CRC but it has long gone from there now.
The offer definately brought all 767 aircraft over to eurofleet with all the 767 longhaul routes.
The companies original request, that BASSA were so upset about, created a single supervisory position on Eurofleet having a cabin manager replace CSD's and Pursers. It was after the breakdown of these talks that caused the company to take the Purser off the 767 leaving just the CSD in charge. It was at this time that they reduced all the crew compliments also.
I am sure that there are lots of well informed crew on here that will confirm that BASSA did want longhaul 767 work as part of their proposal and also that the company did want one single supervisory rank on eurofleet.
I think you will find that it is you that is ill informed. Try and find BASSA's offer to BA. It used to be pinned up on the board at CRC but it has long gone from there now.
Where did the unions ever accept or request mixed flying? The proposal for mixed flying comes only from BA and has never been accepted by the unions for existing crew members.
Productivity - Euro Fleet
B767 aircraft will move to Euro Fleet to be operated under a new Euro Fleet agreement.
Euro Fleet Single Supervisor.
It is agreed in principle that the CSD and PSR role can be considered a single role for the purposes of bidding/rostering. The principles are as follows;
- A CSD or PSR can bid for or rostered any trip on any single aisle aircraft type (except 767.)
- A CSD or PSR can be rostered in-charge of B757.
- Only one SCCM to be rostered on B757 and any single aisle aircraft type and the current PSR position is to be replaced by a main crew member.
- On Euro Fleet B767 the SCCM must be a CSD, with the current PSR position being replaced by a main crewmember.
B767 aircraft will move to Euro Fleet to be operated under a new Euro Fleet agreement.
Euro Fleet Single Supervisor.
It is agreed in principle that the CSD and PSR role can be considered a single role for the purposes of bidding/rostering. The principles are as follows;
- A CSD or PSR can bid for or rostered any trip on any single aisle aircraft type (except 767.)
- A CSD or PSR can be rostered in-charge of B757.
- Only one SCCM to be rostered on B757 and any single aisle aircraft type and the current PSR position is to be replaced by a main crew member.
- On Euro Fleet B767 the SCCM must be a CSD, with the current PSR position being replaced by a main crewmember.
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Asperge.
What really shocks me about your post is that you actually have so little knowledge of what your union was trying to negotiate in your name.
How can we be in the situation we all find ourselves with people like you, willing to put your jobs on the line and lose your staff travel, who actually have no knowledge of what your union was suggesting in your name.
Yes that has always been part of BASSA's 50 million savings. It is how they wanted to keep the CSD on Eurofleet. Oh yes, has the penny dropped for you!!! Yes they are nearly all CSD's!!!!
Devereux the lead negotiater has always wanted longhaul 767 work on eurofleet and he saw this as a way of getting it. That is why so many euoofleet crew did not want this BASSA proposal and many preffered BA's original proposal but the union was only interested in protecting themselves, the CSD's.
You need to actually know what you are talking about before you tell others they are wrong.
What really shocks me about your post is that you actually have so little knowledge of what your union was trying to negotiate in your name.
How can we be in the situation we all find ourselves with people like you, willing to put your jobs on the line and lose your staff travel, who actually have no knowledge of what your union was suggesting in your name.
Yes that has always been part of BASSA's 50 million savings. It is how they wanted to keep the CSD on Eurofleet. Oh yes, has the penny dropped for you!!! Yes they are nearly all CSD's!!!!
Devereux the lead negotiater has always wanted longhaul 767 work on eurofleet and he saw this as a way of getting it. That is why so many euoofleet crew did not want this BASSA proposal and many preffered BA's original proposal but the union was only interested in protecting themselves, the CSD's.
You need to actually know what you are talking about before you tell others they are wrong.
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Asperge.
Just another question to you. Are you actually crew?
Just wondered because we hear about BASSA members that never bother to read the company emails and letters but I am shocked that you don't seem to read the union ones either!!!
Just another question to you. Are you actually crew?
Just wondered because we hear about BASSA members that never bother to read the company emails and letters but I am shocked that you don't seem to read the union ones either!!!
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To be honest, most of you have been taken in
So, who has been taken in?
Hector Vector (Dunc),
How many times do we have to put that right? BASSA offered near zero savings - they wanted all the money back after a couple of years. They were treating it as nothing more than a 'loan' to BA. So HV (Dunc), you're otherwise weak argument fails at the first hurdle. 
And with those of your ilk attempting to pass off drivel as fact, then it is little wonder the marginalisation occurs. Self-inflicted handiwork - well done! 
Betty girl,
Thats a wee bit rich, isn't it? The union is barely capable of putting together any communication that is coherent and truthful. All we have seen are hopeless allusions to wars and atrocities (much of it offensive) and stories about tomatoes and song lyrics - not an ounce of substance anywhere! No one has asked HV (Dunc) if he is actually crew - is that because you are clearly aware that he isn't actually crew .... anymore? Consequently, he doesn't meet the test required by this thread:
But the Mods do acknowledge that HV (Dunc) "is a form of troll", and is perhaps riding close to the Mods "heavy use of the Delete function".
Walsh could have accepted the unions proposals and without going through it all again, there would have been over £50m in savings
Its front line staff are marginalised as hate figures by other employees, and vilified in the Press.
Betty girl,
Asperge, Just another question to you. Are you actually crew?
Just wondered because we hear about BASSA members that never bother to read the company emails and letters but I am shocked that you don't seem to read the union ones either!!!
Just wondered because we hear about BASSA members that never bother to read the company emails and letters but I am shocked that you don't seem to read the union ones either!!!
This thread is intended for use by people presently employed as airline staff.
If you do not fall into this category - please do not post here ......
If you do not fall into this category - please do not post here ......
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BA Ground Staff Deal ready...
Looks like another (the final excepting the Muppet Show?) part of BA has managed to reach a negotiated settlement..
The Independent
The Independent
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Abbey Road,
I see your point about the union not being able to put together any communication that is coherent and truthful but the proposal that BASSA suggested, was up on the BASSA notice board for months and monrhs last year as were letters of theirs explaining how bad it was, that BA wanted to replace CSD's and Pursers with a new single incharge crew member. It seems strange that this passed Asperge by.
I see your point about the union not being able to put together any communication that is coherent and truthful but the proposal that BASSA suggested, was up on the BASSA notice board for months and monrhs last year as were letters of theirs explaining how bad it was, that BA wanted to replace CSD's and Pursers with a new single incharge crew member. It seems strange that this passed Asperge by.
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The grounds staffs deal has been done in all but name for months. Unite had resisted signing the deal in a show of solidarity with the cabin crew but it appears even they've now lost patience. BASSA really have been cut adrift by every other employee in BA.
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Betty Girl,
With respect, more Eurofleet CSDs came to work over the strike than Pursers, at least that's what I saw as I worked most days of the strike.
We have fought long and hard to protect our rank. Why should I give up something I have worked my socks off to achieve when I have accepted change. I had to wait 14 years as Main Crew before I was allowed to go for Purser promotion after which I immediately applied to be a CSD. That is how it was when I joined BA, many moons ago.
If you were a CSD, would you be prepared to go down a grade when you had worked hard to achieve promotion?
On 767s we are managing really well without a Purser since imposition and Bill Francis and BA have been fair in allowing us to keep our grade. This has contributed to huge cost savings.
To be a Cabin Manager or whatever the title would have been on Eurofleet for the single supervisor, would have made very little difference to our salaries. This is something BA would not have been able to change in any case, so there is very little point in doing away with the grade. We might as well as may be the case, die a natural death so to speak.
I have also 'backed BA' more than the average crew member and gone above and beyond more than most. Please be a little bit more reasonable when attacking CSDs, because you are tarring us all with the same brush.
With respect, more Eurofleet CSDs came to work over the strike than Pursers, at least that's what I saw as I worked most days of the strike.
We have fought long and hard to protect our rank. Why should I give up something I have worked my socks off to achieve when I have accepted change. I had to wait 14 years as Main Crew before I was allowed to go for Purser promotion after which I immediately applied to be a CSD. That is how it was when I joined BA, many moons ago.
If you were a CSD, would you be prepared to go down a grade when you had worked hard to achieve promotion?
On 767s we are managing really well without a Purser since imposition and Bill Francis and BA have been fair in allowing us to keep our grade. This has contributed to huge cost savings.
To be a Cabin Manager or whatever the title would have been on Eurofleet for the single supervisor, would have made very little difference to our salaries. This is something BA would not have been able to change in any case, so there is very little point in doing away with the grade. We might as well as may be the case, die a natural death so to speak.
I have also 'backed BA' more than the average crew member and gone above and beyond more than most. Please be a little bit more reasonable when attacking CSDs, because you are tarring us all with the same brush.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 11th Aug 2010 at 17:24. Reason: Too long a sentence in of the paragraphs!
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Tiramisu. I think you misunderstand. I know alot of CSD's came to work. I don't think BA wanted to remove your pay they were just wanting to have one senior crew member on E/F. E.g. current CSD's would have kept their pay just no more Pursers would have been made into CSD's in the future. They were basically wanting to have one SCCM on eurofleet and had been wanting that for a long time.
I think personaly that that would have been a better option for you than the one we have now when you CSD's are doing just 767 band 4 work.
I personaly like the fact that I now only work on the airbus and don't have to work on the 767 anymore.
I was not meaning to upset you as a CSD but just trying to show how short sighted the union were in all their negotiations.
It was the fact that all the union reps were CSD's and just looking after their own interests that I was getting at.
Of course I don't blame CSD's persay. You are a great bunch and you in particular give great posts on here.
I think the union has actually let you down the most. You could be doing a much nicer mix of trips if they hadn't been sio insistant that only CSD's could be in charge of the 767s. So sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying.
I think personaly that that would have been a better option for you than the one we have now when you CSD's are doing just 767 band 4 work.
I personaly like the fact that I now only work on the airbus and don't have to work on the 767 anymore.
I was not meaning to upset you as a CSD but just trying to show how short sighted the union were in all their negotiations.
It was the fact that all the union reps were CSD's and just looking after their own interests that I was getting at.
Of course I don't blame CSD's persay. You are a great bunch and you in particular give great posts on here.
I think the union has actually let you down the most. You could be doing a much nicer mix of trips if they hadn't been sio insistant that only CSD's could be in charge of the 767s. So sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying.
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Please be advised that the account of Hector Vector is temporarily suspended pending confirmation of airline employment. Therefore please refrain from posting further comment to this user until you see further posts from him: This will be your indication that credentials have been confirmed. This post will be removed at that time.
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An observation about VCC
One of HV's oft-repeated mantras is/was that VCC should watch out because they placed their jobs under threat by demonstrating that they are expendable because the airline continued to function without them when they were off training for and serving as VCC.
Given that, it's interesting that in its very first sentence in "A Senior Manager in BA Writes" posted by him http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/418...ml#post5859940 mentions a growing backlog of work and twice more it describes the problems being caused by VCC being away from the office.
It was kind of him to provide the ammunition to demolish one of his favourite claims.
Given that, it's interesting that in its very first sentence in "A Senior Manager in BA Writes" posted by him http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/418...ml#post5859940 mentions a growing backlog of work and twice more it describes the problems being caused by VCC being away from the office.
It was kind of him to provide the ammunition to demolish one of his favourite claims.
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The VCC are indeed an interesting element of this situation. For the third time recently I have heard from CM friend of mine (all from 3 comments from different CM's) that one (on one occasion two) of the VCC on her flight was "not a team player".
The feeling was that as they were a manager in their normal job, this was something they were "expected" to do, not happy to do. Also they were not happy to muck in and help, but instead tell the regular crew when toilets needed restocking, there were safety issues in the cabin etc etc. A bit of a supieriority complex that the CC job really was a bit beneath them unfortunately.
Needless to say, all received feedback.
If that also was their attitude (I have no reson to doubt the people I know, not these ones anyway!), I'd actually be quite happy that they didn't interact with customers, and pass on issues to the people who do want to be there.
I would also say that these individuals are also in the minority and apart from these comments have heard nothing else but good things.
The point I'm trying to make is although VCC are "backing BA", not all are doing it willingly, or find that the CC job is for them (see the pilots and facebook incident a few months ago).
Luckily at LGW the VCC keeping in check are "extra" to the normal crew levels. Giving CM's the option to give such individuals the option to "sit the rest of the flight out, to consider if CC is for them".
Another part of this interesting web.
FWIW.....
I think the SH at LGW will go to Flybe eventually (Walsh has been very open about looking at other revenue streams for the LGW shorthaul product in all his forums). The LH will stay (Again Walsh has been very open about starting new Eastern routes, subject the changes in the MOA). The crew will end up being moved onto the new mixed fleet contracts and dual based.
There seems to be a almost elated atmosphere amongst the crew at LGW that the SH will be go and that only the LH will be left.
If they think BA will leave it like that, I think they need to think again.
The changes have only just begun.
The feeling was that as they were a manager in their normal job, this was something they were "expected" to do, not happy to do. Also they were not happy to muck in and help, but instead tell the regular crew when toilets needed restocking, there were safety issues in the cabin etc etc. A bit of a supieriority complex that the CC job really was a bit beneath them unfortunately.
Needless to say, all received feedback.
If that also was their attitude (I have no reson to doubt the people I know, not these ones anyway!), I'd actually be quite happy that they didn't interact with customers, and pass on issues to the people who do want to be there.
I would also say that these individuals are also in the minority and apart from these comments have heard nothing else but good things.
The point I'm trying to make is although VCC are "backing BA", not all are doing it willingly, or find that the CC job is for them (see the pilots and facebook incident a few months ago).
Luckily at LGW the VCC keeping in check are "extra" to the normal crew levels. Giving CM's the option to give such individuals the option to "sit the rest of the flight out, to consider if CC is for them".
Another part of this interesting web.
FWIW.....
I think the SH at LGW will go to Flybe eventually (Walsh has been very open about looking at other revenue streams for the LGW shorthaul product in all his forums). The LH will stay (Again Walsh has been very open about starting new Eastern routes, subject the changes in the MOA). The crew will end up being moved onto the new mixed fleet contracts and dual based.
There seems to be a almost elated atmosphere amongst the crew at LGW that the SH will be go and that only the LH will be left.
If they think BA will leave it like that, I think they need to think again.
The changes have only just begun.