British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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who will suffer as a result of the company's (current) lack of willing to extend this offer to Union members.
The company should open up this offer in My Opportunities and give people one month to accept it - and they must NOT be a member of the union by the end of those 30 days.
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Originally Posted by Snas
Sorry Eddy, I cant let this one go. It was extended to union members, they voted to reject it.
But what about the union members who voted to accept?!
I KNOW, that's the danger of union membership. You wanna be a member of a union, you take what said union negotiates on your behalf.
I think I changed my mind again. No - it shouldn't be re-offered.
Originally Posted by Snas
That would be illegal.
"This offer is only available to crew who are not a member of the union on XX of XXX 2010".
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No moreso than the offer I signed....
"This offer is only available to crew who are not a member of the union on XX of XXX 2010".
"This offer is only available to crew who are not a member of the union on XX of XXX 2010".
Note quite chap. The first offer was made after the cut off date for union membership meaning that it could not be viewed as encouraging you to leave, as it was already too late.
Were a new offer to be made (for example) on Monday on condition that you had let the union by the following Friday, then that would literally be encouraging you to leave the union, and illegal.
Eddy - I totally understand where you are coming from and for the most part agree with you - however BA is ruled by the law in this, and thats that.
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By the way, a manager I know recently had to deal with a disciplinary case involving a Bassa member who had worked during the strikes.....
Bassa refused to offer protection when called upon for it.
You cannot have your cake and eat it, too.
Bassa refused to offer protection when called upon for it.
You cannot have your cake and eat it, too.
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Hi Eddy
Replied earlier but my post has to be approved by a moderator
I am new to this so in brief
I seem to remember getting plenty of notice from BA that I'd be given the opportunity to vote IF I wasn't a member of the union.
On 25th June BA made the offer if you were not in a union on that day. I would be grateful if you could provide comms from before 25th June to back up your statement
I mean you absolutely no disrespect, StTropez, but it's very easy to claim support for BA now that there's no doubt in anyone's mind (well, bar a few hundred crew, perhaps) that the war is over than that BA has emerged victorious.
But for those of us who backed BA from the very start, to see the offer extended to those who went out on strike and only opened their eyes after causing untold damage to the reputation of the airline and after it became clear that there was no way Bassa would win, seems somewhat unfair.
I take your point Eddy, but I repeat my concern is for CC who were in a union, 'BACKED BA', did NOT go on strike, still have ST, have supported BA throughout this awful time, and may not have a chance to accept the offer if Hothead Holley calls another ballot for IR
Betty, Thanks.
PS don't know how to do quotes
Replied earlier but my post has to be approved by a moderator
I am new to this so in brief I seem to remember getting plenty of notice from BA that I'd be given the opportunity to vote IF I wasn't a member of the union.
On 25th June BA made the offer if you were not in a union on that day. I would be grateful if you could provide comms from before 25th June to back up your statement
I mean you absolutely no disrespect, StTropez, but it's very easy to claim support for BA now that there's no doubt in anyone's mind (well, bar a few hundred crew, perhaps) that the war is over than that BA has emerged victorious.
But for those of us who backed BA from the very start, to see the offer extended to those who went out on strike and only opened their eyes after causing untold damage to the reputation of the airline and after it became clear that there was no way Bassa would win, seems somewhat unfair.
I take your point Eddy, but I repeat my concern is for CC who were in a union, 'BACKED BA', did NOT go on strike, still have ST, have supported BA throughout this awful time, and may not have a chance to accept the offer if Hothead Holley calls another ballot for IR
Betty, Thanks.
PS don't know how to do quotes
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[cynicism] Perhaps it was more to do with 'when' Bassa had someone 'available' to represent the crew member. Perhaps Bassa were 'having a busy year' and couldn't spare someone..... [/cynicism]
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Eddy,
I am not in the union and I did accept the offer. I just know lots of good people who did work during the strike but remained union members and I am just hoping for their sake that the union sees sense or the company gives them the chance to sign in the future.
That's all.
I am not in the union and I did accept the offer. I just know lots of good people who did work during the strike but remained union members and I am just hoping for their sake that the union sees sense or the company gives them the chance to sign in the future.
That's all.
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Hiya Betty,
my apologies - I mis-interpreted your situation.
I think these people need to leave the union IMMEDIATELY.
Sitting around, waiting, hoping that the company will make the same offer again to the union and that, this time, their union colleagues will see sense and accept, it daft.
Tell your friends to GET OUT NOW. If this offer is ever to be made again, they'll need to be out of Bassa to be allowed to accept it.
Again, you can't have your cake and eat it. Your friends have to choose between the protection the union might offer you on the off chance that one day you'll need it (the two times I've needed their help they've been useless!) and accepting a decent offer here and now.
That's not to say I still don't respect the majority of the Bassa reps, the work they do and the reasons they do it. But when it comes to something major like taking strike action, one has to make a personal choice.
As for your friends; they cannot have both.
my apologies - I mis-interpreted your situation.
I think these people need to leave the union IMMEDIATELY.
Sitting around, waiting, hoping that the company will make the same offer again to the union and that, this time, their union colleagues will see sense and accept, it daft.
Tell your friends to GET OUT NOW. If this offer is ever to be made again, they'll need to be out of Bassa to be allowed to accept it.
Again, you can't have your cake and eat it. Your friends have to choose between the protection the union might offer you on the off chance that one day you'll need it (the two times I've needed their help they've been useless!) and accepting a decent offer here and now.
That's not to say I still don't respect the majority of the Bassa reps, the work they do and the reasons they do it. But when it comes to something major like taking strike action, one has to make a personal choice.
As for your friends; they cannot have both.
Last edited by Eddy; 12th Aug 2010 at 21:01.
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Hiya StT!
Don't worry about it.... Things have a tendancy to go missing on here from time to time 
Forgive me, I can't. And you know what, perhaps I'm getting befuddled.
Nevertheless, those with the foresight to leave the union that descended into chaos early on in this whole affair have been given an opportunity to sign up to a deal unlikely to be rivalled by anything union members will now see.
Those who, for whatever reason, chose to retain their membership of said union, have not been privy to the same offer.
It's harsh, but it's fair.
For starters, they shouldn't have remained in the union. I think I might actually have been in the union for part of the strikes, but only for the first one and only because of major problems getting BA Pay Services to stop my contributions.
But I'd never dream of staying in a union that I am defying the strike calls of. Not for any reason.
Those people did a good thing in backing BA, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they kept paying the union and, thus, helped FUND the strike!
Ne'er mind! It's not particularly straightforward. Why they don't just give us a quote button is beyond me!
Originally Posted by StTropez
Replied earlier but my post has to be approved by a moderator
Originally Posted by StTropez
On 25th June BA made the offer if you were not in a union on that day. I would be grateful if you could provide comms from before 25th June to back up your statement.
Nevertheless, those with the foresight to leave the union that descended into chaos early on in this whole affair have been given an opportunity to sign up to a deal unlikely to be rivalled by anything union members will now see.
Those who, for whatever reason, chose to retain their membership of said union, have not been privy to the same offer.
It's harsh, but it's fair.
Originally Posted by StTropez
I take your point Eddy, but I repeat my concern is for CC who were in a union, 'BACKED BA', did NOT go on strike, still have ST, have supported BA throughout this awful time, and may not have a chance to accept the offer if Hothead Holley calls another ballot for IR
But I'd never dream of staying in a union that I am defying the strike calls of. Not for any reason.
Those people did a good thing in backing BA, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they kept paying the union and, thus, helped FUND the strike!
Originally Posted by StTropez
PS don't know how to do quotes
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Was in CRC today.
You might imagine that a union member would think twice before gleefully boasting that they had lost £348 by going on strike, yet had recieved more than £400 in strike pay from the union.
You might imagine that, but you would be wrong.
Regards continuing union membership: As in all areas of life, there are choices. Choices have consequences. (Sorry, that probably sounds a little condescending). But basically, my view is that to continue to fund an organisation (and thereby appear to apparently "support" it) with which one appears to have a very fundamental difference of opionion, is quite simply silly, or at best misguided. Therefore one of the above mentioned "choices" has to be made now, once and for all. Too many seem to be fence-sitting on a now very dilapidated and rickety fence. Surely it'd be best to jump off the fence now, before it collapes around you, and possibly harms you in so doing?
While BA certainly does seem to want union representation and therefore continuing collective bargaining, surely it's entirely upto the employees to decide exactly which union it is that'll represent them, and the manner in which that representation is undertaken?
Just as acting as a representing union is a very serious matter, with possibly very far-reaching consequences for all involved, then so also is being a member of such a union. Too many seem to have failed to grasp this, and see the whole thing as a bit of a laugh. Not quite so funny now though is it, for those still choosing to support bassa/cc89/unite?
Today we have news of the unite strike ballot of BAA staff. Just minutes ago, Brian Boyd was on BBC R2 News, talking about " .... the employer, the British Airports Authority .... ". It's not been called that since 1986! It'd be nice if those at the top end of unite could get the general details right, before trying to interfere with the minutae of many hard working peoples working lives.
You might imagine that a union member would think twice before gleefully boasting that they had lost £348 by going on strike, yet had recieved more than £400 in strike pay from the union.
You might imagine that, but you would be wrong.
Regards continuing union membership: As in all areas of life, there are choices. Choices have consequences. (Sorry, that probably sounds a little condescending). But basically, my view is that to continue to fund an organisation (and thereby appear to apparently "support" it) with which one appears to have a very fundamental difference of opionion, is quite simply silly, or at best misguided. Therefore one of the above mentioned "choices" has to be made now, once and for all. Too many seem to be fence-sitting on a now very dilapidated and rickety fence. Surely it'd be best to jump off the fence now, before it collapes around you, and possibly harms you in so doing?
While BA certainly does seem to want union representation and therefore continuing collective bargaining, surely it's entirely upto the employees to decide exactly which union it is that'll represent them, and the manner in which that representation is undertaken?
Just as acting as a representing union is a very serious matter, with possibly very far-reaching consequences for all involved, then so also is being a member of such a union. Too many seem to have failed to grasp this, and see the whole thing as a bit of a laugh. Not quite so funny now though is it, for those still choosing to support bassa/cc89/unite?
Today we have news of the unite strike ballot of BAA staff. Just minutes ago, Brian Boyd was on BBC R2 News, talking about " .... the employer, the British Airports Authority .... ". It's not been called that since 1986! It'd be nice if those at the top end of unite could get the general details right, before trying to interfere with the minutae of many hard working peoples working lives.
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post 1921 hector v
Hector, why do you continue with this same rubbish when you have been proved wrong so many times
Not sure where you get the £1.5 from, but aside from that, you wanted the £50m paid back in the good times, so no saving there, without doing anything more, BA will make £1.5bn savings over the next 10 years with crew reductions and new fleet, money well spent.
.
7000, not true, 4973 in total, with 667 of these returning to work
I am sure if the TU wish to talk about performance related pay for any staff group Willy would be happy to listen
What planet are you on, even take away the strike and ash costs, we still would have only broken even.
Crew hated ?, not true, all the crew that worked are admired and respected by all in the airline
You might be right here, but this is due to BASSA, not Willy.
I hope you not a betting man, if you are bet on this. BA cost savings allow expansion into new routes, the low cost base of the CC has allowed many new routes from LHR to florish, due to the slot limitation at LHR, both full and increased usage if LGW has allowed for growth from both airports as well as via Madrid. \the tie up with AA on the Atlantic has allowed schedules to be aligned leading to improved profits on these routes, ba back to 10% profits by 2012, shares go through the roof, staff rewarded with big bonuses (well, those that have signed up for the new deal)
G.
Walsh could have accepted the unions proposals and without going through it all again, there would have been over £50m in savings, no £200m wasted on strike costs and around £1.5bn retained in forward bookings.
Instead Walsh, as he has done before, ran true to character and wielded the big stick. As someone once said on this forum over a year ago, Walsh and his team all thought at the first onset of IA, all the cabin crew would be down their doctor's surgeries "practicising their coughs". Well it hasn't worked out that way. Over 7,000 went on strike. A slight miscalculation I would say. One certainly worthy of a resignation
7000, not true, 4973 in total, with 667 of these returning to work
So what is going to happen now? Whilst the company loses money hand over fist (allegedly), the LT award themselves £11m worth of bonuses, paid for in part by sacrifices made by other departments in BA. Just a banal customer satisfaction target was all that was needed to trigger this windfall. So whilst we are all expected to tighten our belts, the LT are at the trough. And before anyone says "Willie didn't take his", future bonuses and salary for Walsh as CEO of IAG, will make those bonuses look like a weekends pocket money in the near future.
BA would be currently reaping big profits as the company surfed the crest of the recovery, but instead it is a business racked with industrial relations problems. Its front line staff are marginalised as hate figures by other employees, and vilified in the Press.
Crew hated ?, not true, all the crew that worked are admired and respected by all in the airline
There is no way back from the mess that Walsh has been allowed to create. I fear the airline is in a financial stall from which it may never recover.
Emergency action will be required before the end of the year. My prediction is that LGW shorthaul will be sold off to FlyBe and the long haul routes sent to LHR. BA will struggle to recruit staff of a sufficient calibre even to meet the new lower expectations of its customers. The meltdown will continue, as even BA staff tell friends and family to book with other carriers.
G.
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Sometimes it's not a bad thing for BAA to be referred to as British Airports Authority. There is a common misconception that BAA and BA are the same company (or atleast that people mis-hear BAA as simply BA and draw their own - incorrect - conclusions).
When talking about strikes, we need as little risk of people thinking they're talking about BA as possible.
An elementary mistake on the part of the Unite lacky, but not an unforgivable one, for once.
When talking about strikes, we need as little risk of people thinking they're talking about BA as possible.
An elementary mistake on the part of the Unite lacky, but not an unforgivable one, for once.
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Hi Eddy
Point taken.
Although personally, I'd rather hear BA refered to as British Airways (which is, after all, its official name), and BAA refered to as BAA (which is its official name).
I did once have to pick-up Jeremy Vine on the very same issue, a couple of years back.
What's that saying? ..... "The Devil is in the detail". (Devil is in the detail - Idiom Definition - UsingEnglish.com)
Point taken.
Although personally, I'd rather hear BA refered to as British Airways (which is, after all, its official name), and BAA refered to as BAA (which is its official name).
I did once have to pick-up Jeremy Vine on the very same issue, a couple of years back.
What's that saying? ..... "The Devil is in the detail". (Devil is in the detail - Idiom Definition - UsingEnglish.com)
Last edited by TorC; 12th Aug 2010 at 21:37. Reason: changed "our" to "its"
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While British Airways can't entice employees to leave a union, I as an individual certainly can. Although to be honest it's nothing so complicated as enticing .... I just simply tell them to leave.
Is it not highly likely that British Airways will make another identical offer in the near future, specifying that it's open to employees who are not members of unite on XX/XX/2010?
While a lot of things are currently unclear at the moment, this is exactly why people, colleagues of mine, simply HAVE to open their eyes, search for the clues, and then decide what's best for them.
Is it not highly likely that British Airways will make another identical offer in the near future, specifying that it's open to employees who are not members of unite on XX/XX/2010?
While a lot of things are currently unclear at the moment, this is exactly why people, colleagues of mine, simply HAVE to open their eyes, search for the clues, and then decide what's best for them.
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Eddy.
The thing is that prior to the anouncement on 25th June there was no other way of getting the offer accepted other that voting YES, so that is why many were still members on 25th. Not because they wanted representation, not because they agreed with the union but because at that time, that was the only way to get the offer accepted.
BF was being inundated by people like you, who felt duty bound to leave the union, asking him to give them a way to accept. At the same time he wanted to heap pressure on BASSA so that is why he made the offer.
However because BF cannot by law offer an inducement to leave the union, he had to anounce it on the 25th and also make that the day you had to have already left the union. So NO people like StTropez had no way of knowing and even though he has probably now left the union he has no way of accepting the offer. I just feel sorry for him and knowing what a normally thoughtful and caring person you are I was just a bit suprised at how harsh your original post sounded towards people in StTropez position.
The thing is that prior to the anouncement on 25th June there was no other way of getting the offer accepted other that voting YES, so that is why many were still members on 25th. Not because they wanted representation, not because they agreed with the union but because at that time, that was the only way to get the offer accepted.
BF was being inundated by people like you, who felt duty bound to leave the union, asking him to give them a way to accept. At the same time he wanted to heap pressure on BASSA so that is why he made the offer.
However because BF cannot by law offer an inducement to leave the union, he had to anounce it on the 25th and also make that the day you had to have already left the union. So NO people like StTropez had no way of knowing and even though he has probably now left the union he has no way of accepting the offer. I just feel sorry for him and knowing what a normally thoughtful and caring person you are I was just a bit suprised at how harsh your original post sounded towards people in StTropez position.
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I remained a BASSA member to vote yes to the latest proposal, before that I voted No and No to both strike calls, I thought that was the best thing to do at the time. ( better to have a voice and dilute )
I have now left BASSA unfortunately after june 25th cut off.
I returned my acceptance ( after the cut off date) with a side letter explaining, but BA have not replied, not even an acknowledgement.
I too worked during the strikes.
I understand that BA cannot be seen to entice crew from the union, however I am now left without BASSA backing and it would appear also from BA.
I have now left BASSA unfortunately after june 25th cut off.
I returned my acceptance ( after the cut off date) with a side letter explaining, but BA have not replied, not even an acknowledgement.
I too worked during the strikes.
I understand that BA cannot be seen to entice crew from the union, however I am now left without BASSA backing and it would appear also from BA.
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I remained a BASSA member to vote yes to the latest proposal, before that I voted No and No to both strike calls, I thought that was the best thing to do at the time. ( better to have a voice and dilute )
I have now left BASSA unfortunately after june 25th cut off.
I returned my acceptance ( after the cut off date) with a side letter explaining, but BA have not replied, not even an acknowledgement.
I too worked during the strikes.
I understand that BA cannot be seen to entice crew from the union, however I am now left without BASSA backing and it would appear also from BA.
I have now left BASSA unfortunately after june 25th cut off.
I returned my acceptance ( after the cut off date) with a side letter explaining, but BA have not replied, not even an acknowledgement.
I too worked during the strikes.
I understand that BA cannot be seen to entice crew from the union, however I am now left without BASSA backing and it would appear also from BA.
I'm pretty certain you'll get another chance to accept a direct offer from British Airways, as will everyone else who has now left the union.
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pcf, I cannot express enough sympathy to you.
Have you now left Bassa?
(EDIT : I notice Tor above has said what I'm mid-typing)
I hope you have, because I suspect the same offer will be extended again in a month or so to people like yourself. People need to start making their minds up now about what they want.
Good luck - I mean that sincerely.
Have you now left Bassa?
(EDIT : I notice Tor above has said what I'm mid-typing)
I hope you have, because I suspect the same offer will be extended again in a month or so to people like yourself. People need to start making their minds up now about what they want.
Good luck - I mean that sincerely.
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I contacted the 'BA helpline' and was advised not to make a false statement - on the acceptance form it clearly stated ' not a BASSA member on 25th June' ..I didnt have an option