British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)

[Colonel White]

Today 18:37 MissM Wrote
See some of you on the 6th. I'm thinking of putting on yellow eyeshadow!

Presumably to show off the crocodile tears she will be shedding for the souls lost in Manchester. I take it then that MissM sees nothing distasteful in the proposal put forward. Makes you wonder how some people ever got selected as cabin crew.

On the duty flights I've made in the past, I've had the good fortune to come across decent, helpful cabin crew. On a late flight back from Nice I was informed at the gate that although I was in Club, there was no meal loaded for me. The crew on the flight said they would see if they could rustle me up something and I was really grateful when they managed to find a spare meal as I had been in meetings all day and was facing the prospect of having had nothing to eat for around 10+ hours by the time we landed at LHR. I get the impression that the majority of cabin crew are proud of their job and want to do the best for BA's customers. It is just a pity that there is a small vociferous faction who seem to go out of their way to play the jobsworth and tarnish the reputation of the rest. The sooner they leave BA either under their own steam or as a consequence of disciplinary matters, the better it will be for the rest of the organisation. I would suggest that the proposed action by BASSA regarding the upcoming meeting may blow up in their faces. If the company deems that the action of linking solidarity with sacked and suspended staff with the loss of life in the Manchester crash is bringing the company's reputation into disrepute, it would be unwise of cabin crew to adopt it as this is a sackable offence.

[strikemaster82]

MissM

Earlier in the thread I posted my thoughts on BASSA being an example of a mind-control cult.

I still hold this view and would suggest that perhaps you are one of those who has been 'taken in'. I say this as you hold such unswerving beliefs even when faced with the true facts as understood by the outside world.

Many posters have patiently explained things time after time, yet you continue to repeat untruths, presumably in the hope that some BASSA opposers will start to believe its version of events?

For example, your point about the VCC being replaceable and therefore fearful for their jobs has been explained time and again yet you miss the obvious point that cabin crew themselves have been replaced very quickly...

You state in the face of indisputable financial evidence that BA has never been in a fight for survival. That point alone is so easily refuted, can you not see that this destroys your credibility?

People have been dismissed during the dispute for gross misconduct, using a process approved by UNITE. Do you suggest that these dismissals are unfair?

You ignore the concessions made by many other groups across the airline. (This has the effect of making others in the airline angry, I know this because they tell me..)

Finally,

If everyone who voted for industrial action had gone on strike for Christmas and BA had been grounded I have no doubt that we would have reached an agreement with management. They would have been forced to negotiate because no other alternative had been available.

- they didn't, it wasn't and you didn't.

In the USA they have a phrase for this "Woulda coulda shoulda" which sums it up very well I think. None of your options happened, the rest of your colleagues in the company opposed your views and BASSA has been sidelined.

[MissM]

LD12986

I am gravely mistaken? How can you be so certain? An industrial action amongst cabin crew has never any public support because regardless time of the year they depend that the flights depart as scheduled. That's the problem within the aviation industry.

123breath

BA is not in fight for its survival. BA is bringing back aircraft from the desert and look at the pay rise of our devoted CEO. Almost 40%. Would you honestly say that this company is fighting for its survival? By the way. Why hasn't the company said for a very long time that it's struggling for it's survival? Because it's not true.

BA will not issue a 90 days notice. Never. In such case it would have happened earlier. If PCCC was serious they would have stepped forward earlier. They are not serious. Either way, they would have sold us down the river as some of their founders are apparently active on this page and signed the offer available by BA.

Colonel White

And to support my union against this bullying management.

It makes you wonder how some get selected as cabin crew? Personally, language skills (fluency in 5 languages plus English), culture awareness (brought up in Africa and in Asia) plus customer services experience. Don't patronise me or anyone else who has been selected. We have all been put through a thorough selection process.

[LD12986]

I am gravely mistaken? How can you be so certain? An industrial action amongst cabin crew has never any public support because regardless time of the year they depend that the flights depart as scheduled. That's the problem within the aviation industry.

There is a much more emotive element to industrial action at Christmas. You would have been on the front pages of all the major newspapers and leading the news bulletins (not much else in the way of news over the period) every day of the strike. We're not just talking about not having public support. You would have been public enemy Number 1.

If you think you are despised by your colleagues now, that would not compare to the strength of feeling had you gone on strike.

Nobody would ever, ever, forgive cabin crew if they went on strike at Christmas, and the company would have licence to (within the law) do their worst on you.

And you would have all deserved it.

BA is not in fight for its survival. BA is bringing back aircraft from the desert and look at the pay rise of our devoted CEO. Almost 40%. Would you honestly say that this company is fighting for its survival? By the way. Why hasn't the company said for a very long time that it's struggling for it's survival? Because it's not true.

There you go again. Ignoring facts. BA has brought just 1 747 back from the desert so it doesn't have to undergo heavy maintenance in the desert before returning to service.

What do you have to substantiate the claim that WW has received a payrise of 40%?

And what about two years of record financial losses (please don't wheel out T5 opening and price-fixing in response)? Are you going to accuse BA of the criminal offence of false accounting as well?

[beesflyer]

Evening Miss M, welcome back. As you have answered other posters, can you please answer my post asking how you are going to stop Management making the needed cost savings in your dept. You clearly state you are, but how ??

B Rgds
BF

[Caribbean Boy]

So, MissM, you'd rather see BA go bust. The vast majority of BA employees care more about the company than you and your ilk. That's why we fought to keep BA flying and beat you every time you went on strike.

[Hand Solo]

Fluent in 5 languages! I often hear that from cabin crew when they want to big themselves up (why is it always 5?). That and 2 degrees or running their own business. The reality is that that immaterial, the requirements to be BA cabin crew were a smattering of grade C GCSEs / O levels (just Maths and English I think) and basic proficiency in one foreign language. Anything else is overqualified for the role.

[JKKne]

I am terribly sorry to jump in late on this but I've only just discovered the intentions of BASSA surrounding the Manchester memorial

I returned to the UK on the 20th to attend the memorial service for one of my dearest friends and his amazing wife who died on the British Airtours flight, it was an incredibly emotional occasion and one that brought to the fore the stories and actions of the gallant and heroice flight crew who sacrificed their lives to save others and other passengers who also bravely fought the horrific conditions on board.

To hear BASSA have used this memorial to lay yellow flowers at the memorial made my stomach turn. How dare they ridicule the memory of my friends and of those brave people who lost their lives in a glorified political gambit. I appreciate that members of BASSA may have been friends and colleagues of the crew that passed on but surely they know this is no way to honour them, words fail me

I emailed BASSA to register my digust and have recieved nothing back, I'm not entirely surprised.

I am not one to generally allow emotions to determine the course I follow but I've never felt such distaste and disgust at people I've never met and I feel rather the worse person for it as I fear my feelings make me no better than them

[jetset lady]

Originally Posted by MissM

Sooner or later they will be after LGW again. It is the cheapest base at the moment but still too expensive when compared to the costs of what New Fleet are. They are safe at the moment but not for long.

MissM,

Once again, you appear to have missed a fairly relevant part of a posting. In fact, in this case, it's the majority of the post! Let me remind you. I'll even put the really relevant bit in bold to help....

Originally Posted by jetset lady

Yes, it may come back to LGW again. In fact, I'm pretty sure it will but from talking to friends working for Virgin, Thompson, EasyJet, Ryaniar and BMI, it's happening across the whole industry. CAA limits are no longer limits, they now appear to be targets but like I say, it's not just BA. Aviation has changed for the worse and the old days are gone. You can either accept it and try to get the best realistic deal possible or get out while you still can. I'll hang on for a while to see how it all pans out but if I ever come to hate it as much as you seem to, I won't hesitate.

[Colonel White]

Colonel White

And to support my union against this bullying management.

It makes you wonder how some get selected as cabin crew? Personally, language skills (fluency in 5 languages plus English), culture awareness (brought up in Africa and in Asia) plus customer services experience. Don't patronise me or anyone else who has been selected. We have all been put through a thorough selection process.

Anyone who intends to wear yellow to the meeting on the 6th clearly is lacking in sensitivity. I have no issue with union members wishing to show solidarity for those who they feel have been done a disservice. I might point out that BA offered to allow ACAS to observe any of the disciplinaries - an offer which I believe was turned down by the individuals concerned. What I find beneath contempt is the union seeking to garner support for those who have been suspended or dismissed by linking it with the Manchester disaster 25 years ago. Clearly, Miss M, you do not view this in the same light. Would it make a difference if it was linking support for the individuals concerned with say the millions who died in the holocaust, or the killing fields of Cambodia or maybe those who perished in Rwanda ? How comfortable would you feel if you union said 'We want every one coming to the meeting to wear a red poppy to show support for the chaps and chapesses who have been sacked or are suspended and afterwards we are collecting all the poppies in to make into a wreath to lay at the Cenotaph.' Don't you see the obscenity in hijacking a tribute to the dead in order to provide support for a few living and able bodied people who have only themselves to blame for their predicament ? Don't you think that some people may wish to support the notion of providing a tribute to those who died, but may not agree with supporting the sacked and suspended staff ? Equally, there may be people who support the sacked and suspended staff who couldn't give a fig for the victims of 25 years ago. Are you really that insensitive ? It's not a bit of a giggle. It's not a 'right on' attitude. It's like a bloke stealing flowers from a grave in order to have a bouquet to impress some girl he just met. If you were the recipient, how would you feel, knowing where they came from ? I'm left wondering whether you really are that obtuse, insensitive or totally lacking in a moral compass. You claim to have a clutch of language and other skills so clearly are not stupid, which would be the only other excuse.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Colonel White

I might point out that BA offered to allow ACAS to observe any of the disciplinaries - an offer which I believe was turned down by the individuals concerned.

Do you have evidence of that statement? I am sure I read that BA refused a Unite request for at least mediation in the hearings. I am happy to accept correction on my understanding.

[123breath]

Miss M wrote;
BA will not issue a 90 days notice. Never. In such case it would have happened earlier. If PCCC was serious they would have stepped forward earlier. They are not serious. Either way, they would have sold us down the river as some of their founders are apparently active on this page and signed the offer available by BA.

I'm pleased you focused on this point (albeit having ignored many others) as I'm reminded of a conversation I had in March with someone in senior management who has direct access to WW....he said that WW was very keen to be seen to play the patience game, and this has been demonstrated to be true, amazingly so. He also said that that patience has finite limits, so be very careful when you use the word 'never'......you've been wrong many times before

I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of the current disillusioned Bassa members approach BA for one of these new personal contracts that you refer to (and apparently don't accept on their behalf). I see no reason why those individuals couldn't just sign up.......BA won't care/don't know who is in the union anyway. They might leave Bassa, sign the offer, and join the PCCC (who by the way look very serious to me......what makes you think otherwise? They've just started......give them time) BA have made an incredibly fair offer given what has happened over the past months/years, and one which will disappear if/when WW's patience runs out. Oh, and by the way, there are no jobs out there outside of BA.....most companies have been forced to make compulsary redundancies (How many have BA made? Answer...... zero. Not bad)

As an aside, and for the benefit of the general Bassa membership, is it not true that the majority of the Bassa representatives are very senior crew (in which case they're not particularly representitive representitives ), and I seem to remember someone telling me that 60% of the IFCE wage budget is spent on the top 30% of crew. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The current offer secures that income!!! If the reason for the strike was the imposition of a reduction in crew compliments.......

Miss M wrote;
The strike has been about imposition

....... resulting in CSD's having to serve passengers food & drink , then the only crew affected by imposition were CSD's, who make up the vast majority of the Bassa representatives. Bassa therefore went on strike because the CSD was asked to serve tea! Aren't you a csd Miss M?

Face it Miss M and Bassa, you've had a good run for the past few years (and indeed decades), you've all but lost this dispute, but still you're being offered a deal that maintains your inflated salaries. Sign, before you lose everything, and start representing your membership and not just yourselves. Most of the thoroughly decent crew that I fly with deserve far better representation.

[Hand Solo]

BASSA are making the terrible error of assuming that Willie Walsh is the most hawkish member of the leadership team. I'm reliably informed that Tony McCarthy would have played the 90 day card weeks ago. Wonder what's going to happen when the hawks are in the ascendency?

MissM is going to be forced to deliver those savings soon, and they'll be used to pay for new hats for Mixed Fleet.

[MrBunker]

Originally Posted by MissM

MrBunker

BA has never been in its fight for survival. We all know it was a trick played by our CEO to send us a message. Many voted for industrial action which indicates that there's something wrong yet not willing to make the sacrifices involved in going on strike but relying on the rest of us to do it for them.

I am not waiting for or as little as expecting an apology from anyone for crossing the picket line. Neither should any of them ever except to receive an apology from me for going on strike because that will never happen.

Don't you find it interesting that this is the first time ever in this company during a dispute where crew have actually been suspended or dismissed? That itself indicates what sort of management we are dealing with.

Sod it, I've got some spare time.

1) You don't know that as a fact. What we do know as a fact is that BASSA turned down an opportunity to have confidential access to the company accounts to verify this. Access which BALPA took advantage of and came to the conclusions they did. So you're in no position to say "we all know it was a trick" as your representatives made a conscious decision not to avail themselves of all the information. Ergo it's supposition at best, spin at worst for you to say that. "FACT" as BASSA like to say. I don't disagree with you that those who voted yes and didn't follow up on it need to reflect on that. However, the convoluted pig's ear that BASSA and Unite made of so much of this could, conceivably, have caused many to change their mind in the time between vote and action.

2) No-one who chose to go into work expects an apology of you. The fact you post that still confirms to me that you're partly driven by a monumental sense of self-righteousness. The rub here is that most crew who went to work are respectful of your decision, even if they don't concur with it. The reverse most definitely is not the case.

3) Again, do you know that, definitively, to be the case. What's your reference source for your information in regard of previous disputes?

MissM, at the risk of repeating myself to you and your colleagues/alter egos on here, you do yourself no favours quoting received wisdom as fact. Come here with bolstered, verifiable arguments and you'll receive a considered debate in return. Phrases like "FACT" and "we all know that" are not, in and of themselves, creators of fact.

MrB

[Nutjob]

Miss M (Liz )

I have asked you / Duncan the question before but have never got an answer. I'll try again. See if you can actually answer factually and address the issues I raise. Point by point. Go on, I dare you - take my points and try to produce valid arguments against what I believe to be true. It's a simple enough challenge.

WHAT HAVE YOU ACTUALLY ACHIEVED?
1. Mixed Fleet introduced, where it was originally off the table (Sensible negotiation and sensible cost-saving "gives" would have given BA little incentive and no valid reason to do so)
2. Strikers have lost staff travel and are having to set up and fund their own "Crewdefence" because UNITE won't help (knowing it's a lost cause). More money down the pan for strikers.
3. Strikers have lost anything up to a month's pay and allowances
4. BA now have a huge workforce of VCC (from all parts of the airline) and temps with which to undermine any subsequent strikes.

Please address these points and add any "positives" as you see them. I can't find a single one.


Also, for the record, the strikes were NEVER about MF. MF is a direct consequence of you striking!

[essessdeedee]

Litebulbs

Originally Posted by Colonel White
I might point out that BA offered to allow ACAS to observe any of the disciplinaries - an offer which I believe was turned down by the individuals concerned.

Do you have evidence of that statement? I am sure I read that BA refused a Unite request for at least mediation in the hearings. I am happy to accept correction on my understanding.

there is a difference between observation and mediation. Why would mediation be neccessary in a process agreed between BA and all unions?

[gcal]

Yet another airlne, Mexicana, goes under and still the luddites spout their 70s rhetoric, but oddly never give any answers!
There really are some people out there who have to get their ostrich heads out of the Heathrow bubble and see the bigger picture.
The aviation world will move on with or without you and all your colleagues throughout the airline, the vast majority of its employees, are sick and tired of you.

[the flying nunn]

Miss M

BASSA has tried to negotiate with BA for a very long time. Obviously it's difficult for some of you to believe it because BA claims otherwise

Miss M it is difficult for me to believe. Could you just run through it one more time for me please? The bit that I have the most trouble with is when you say that BASSA has tried to negotiate with BA for a long time. I got the message from BASSA that after a show of hands at the race track there would be NO NEGOTIATION with BA - were they lying to us and secretly "trying to negotiate with BA" behind the members backs?

I also got the message that BASSA would not sit in the same room to negotiate with other parties to the dispute. Please Miss M help me to understand how that is "trying to negotiate".

The other message I got from BASSA was the one last year where they said they had written to BA to state that they would not enter into any meetings with BA about anything other than health and safety matters. Is that where they have "been trying to negotiate"

Thanks for your patience Miss M, I must sound a bit thick, but could you clear one other little detail up for me? What was the reason again for the strikes in the first place?

Miss M I know you said you would get back to us. Have you decided that your claim that BASSA tried to negotiate is untrue and indefensible?

[123breath]

Miss M? Are you there? You've gone very quiet. A lot of your members are waiting for your answers, along with outside observers.

Or are you finally actually thinking about what you've done?

[strikemaster82]

Remember that we who are not in the cult are enemies who are ignored. Do not expect logic or reasoned replies for none are likely, or even possible.