British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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..quite so, we should remember that we are a customer driven industry, and in BA's case with quite abit of freight thrown in.
MissM does well to keep his/her head above the parapet and seems loyal to BASSA. Loyality is a trait to be admired and we would all do well to refocus exactly as to where our own loyalities lie. MissM is loyal to a union group that has done awfully well in the past in seemingly negotiating great packages for their members. Quite so, but this was all achieved in the face of weak BA management/leadership during an era of aviation when the cash sloshed around like a leaking bev maker - being mopped up by those that fought to absorb it into their T&C's. BASSA did great then, well done.
But, OMG, haven't times changed?
Now we have a world that has changed so rapidly that only those willing to accept change/evolution survive. BA now competes against American's protected by Chapter 11, Asian upstarts and the Middle East revolution in LH. SH is faced with the LoCo model. All these competitors work on fundamentally different business models of cost-base and efficiencies.
So BA simply have to react. The CC inefficiencies are breathtaking. The irony is that with skilled negotiation BASSA could have secured deals that would have been seen as mature/intelligent/ground breaking and would have kept the Brand wholesome. Instead we have a regime that is chaired by a personality that 'alledgedly' refered to the CEO as a something not very nice - to his face. The problem, as I see it, revolves around a fundamental lack of business sense from one side of the fence. What little 'common-sense' that does emerge is wrapped in emotional claptrap which is as transparent as it is crass.
BA is a business, headed by an astute operator. He is not emotional, aggressive, stupid, 'vindictive', or likely to roll over any time soon. He has the admiration and, more importantly, the backing of those that matter to run BA as a BUSINESS, successfully.
BASSA is having an argument over ST and Discips'. In negotiations, you can NEVER when an argument. BASSA is not negotiating anything anymore. So how can BASSA possibly survive intact? I would love to hear from a pro-BASSA contributor what BASSA are negotiating? They are a union, aren't they?. Unions are supposed to negotiate, not argue.
MissM does well to keep his/her head above the parapet and seems loyal to BASSA. Loyality is a trait to be admired and we would all do well to refocus exactly as to where our own loyalities lie. MissM is loyal to a union group that has done awfully well in the past in seemingly negotiating great packages for their members. Quite so, but this was all achieved in the face of weak BA management/leadership during an era of aviation when the cash sloshed around like a leaking bev maker - being mopped up by those that fought to absorb it into their T&C's. BASSA did great then, well done.
But, OMG, haven't times changed?
Now we have a world that has changed so rapidly that only those willing to accept change/evolution survive. BA now competes against American's protected by Chapter 11, Asian upstarts and the Middle East revolution in LH. SH is faced with the LoCo model. All these competitors work on fundamentally different business models of cost-base and efficiencies.
So BA simply have to react. The CC inefficiencies are breathtaking. The irony is that with skilled negotiation BASSA could have secured deals that would have been seen as mature/intelligent/ground breaking and would have kept the Brand wholesome. Instead we have a regime that is chaired by a personality that 'alledgedly' refered to the CEO as a something not very nice - to his face. The problem, as I see it, revolves around a fundamental lack of business sense from one side of the fence. What little 'common-sense' that does emerge is wrapped in emotional claptrap which is as transparent as it is crass.
BA is a business, headed by an astute operator. He is not emotional, aggressive, stupid, 'vindictive', or likely to roll over any time soon. He has the admiration and, more importantly, the backing of those that matter to run BA as a BUSINESS, successfully.
BASSA is having an argument over ST and Discips'. In negotiations, you can NEVER when an argument. BASSA is not negotiating anything anymore. So how can BASSA possibly survive intact? I would love to hear from a pro-BASSA contributor what BASSA are negotiating? They are a union, aren't they?. Unions are supposed to negotiate, not argue.
Last edited by IYCSWICSWICW; 16th Jun 2010 at 08:44. Reason: Add a bit more
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I would say that MissM is not a troll. Just because her views disagree with most on here, that doesn't mean she is simply provoking people. She has taken the time to address individual replies, rather that the child-like input of one or two other BASSA supporters.
I'd much rather treat her contributions as an interesting look at the other sides views - regardless of how misguided I find them.
The question is, how do you convince people they are wrong? She has tried, and we have tried. It makes me wonder how the two polarised views are ever going to work together on our aircraft, without the underlying resentment and worries of the team breaking down.
I'd much rather treat her contributions as an interesting look at the other sides views - regardless of how misguided I find them.
The question is, how do you convince people they are wrong? She has tried, and we have tried. It makes me wonder how the two polarised views are ever going to work together on our aircraft, without the underlying resentment and worries of the team breaking down.
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Well said Nevermind.
I agree, even though I don't agree with Miss M (incidentaly it may be a 'he' not a 'she') I am glad she/he is allowed to post. I want to hear the views of all, striking crew, non striking crew, ground staff, pilots and people working in Waterside. That is what makes PPRuNe so interesting. It would be a very boring site if it were to just let one view prevail.
Well done MissM for contributing on here.
I agree, even though I don't agree with Miss M (incidentaly it may be a 'he' not a 'she') I am glad she/he is allowed to post. I want to hear the views of all, striking crew, non striking crew, ground staff, pilots and people working in Waterside. That is what makes PPRuNe so interesting. It would be a very boring site if it were to just let one view prevail.
Well done MissM for contributing on here.
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Loco/SH
SH is faced with the LoCo model.
Jetstar. Rock bottom price compared to other airlines. Pay extra to reserve a legroom seat, pay extra to get a meal, and so on.
Sorry, but the LoCo model no longer just applies to SH.
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Sadly BASSA have no experience at negotiation. They have never, in any real, major negotiations actually made any meaningful progress by themselves. They have always ridden on the back of more successful negotiators be they from other Unions or from Unite/Amicus etc, to achieve their aims or close to their aims.
BASSA have only one weapon in their arsenal and, until now, this has served them well thanks to the unwillingness of management to tackle a growing problem.
Rightly or wrongly BASSA have always portrayed themselves as being in the position to ground and cripple the airline as they 'are BA'. In the correct circumstances with a viable argument behind them coupled with a track record of meaningful negotiation and they might have had the ability to achieve it. Unfortunately as the unemployment levels creep toward the 3 million mark, the required and necessary Government cost savings within the public sector could push toward the spectre of a double dip recession, BASSA still can't see the wood for the trees.
BASSA should be protecting the jobs of its members, applauding the company for taking a proactive approach and using productivity to grant VR and avoid CR in the worst trading circumstances to hit the airline industry ever. Work with the other Unions and the company to protect what their members have, will have and could have through sensible negotiation and 'give and take'. BASSA shouted 'no negotiation' on video, on YouTube and now they chant 'negotiation not imposition'! There is NO public sympathy behind this action. The world is moving on, BA is moving on and those backing BA are moving on.
Hopefully BASSA and its 1970's style will, like the fashion, get left behind in history.
BASSA have only one weapon in their arsenal and, until now, this has served them well thanks to the unwillingness of management to tackle a growing problem.
Rightly or wrongly BASSA have always portrayed themselves as being in the position to ground and cripple the airline as they 'are BA'. In the correct circumstances with a viable argument behind them coupled with a track record of meaningful negotiation and they might have had the ability to achieve it. Unfortunately as the unemployment levels creep toward the 3 million mark, the required and necessary Government cost savings within the public sector could push toward the spectre of a double dip recession, BASSA still can't see the wood for the trees.
BASSA should be protecting the jobs of its members, applauding the company for taking a proactive approach and using productivity to grant VR and avoid CR in the worst trading circumstances to hit the airline industry ever. Work with the other Unions and the company to protect what their members have, will have and could have through sensible negotiation and 'give and take'. BASSA shouted 'no negotiation' on video, on YouTube and now they chant 'negotiation not imposition'! There is NO public sympathy behind this action. The world is moving on, BA is moving on and those backing BA are moving on.
Hopefully BASSA and its 1970's style will, like the fashion, get left behind in history.
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Middy
If you think I'm a troll, don't bother reading my posts. This is my last reply to you.
Timothy Claypole
They might fly a 100% schedule in the future but I believe it when I see it.
I don't know too much about EF but if it's accurate that they are only operating 450 to 550 hours a year, surely that's one of the areas where improvements could be made. I don't mind working a bit harder. The issue is not about getting the CSD back to their office. It's about imposition. Most flights are working well so to have the CSD part of the service is not really an issue.
I gave you a couple of examples of some cost saving measurements which BASSA have offered.
ChicoG
I'm not brainwashed. If I were, I wouldn't repeatably be saying that BASSA have made mistakes in the past and that they are not flawless. So, there's no need to feel sorry for me.
MrBunker
There's no evidence regarding BALPA's lanyards. I used it as an example which would be a typical one when it comes to BA. But, if you are to believe that BA is being held ransom over ST nothing would come as a surprise any longer. It's just interesting that we are not allowed to wear our union's lanyard whilst you are allowed to.
I can understand that you have a positive opinion of WW when you think of the deal you managed to get with BA. It's good to hear too that your recent trips have been delightful. Really.
What makes you certain that the volunteers jobs are safe?
Betty girl
No, you wouldn't have seen me on that particular forum as you are referring to a different member. I never post anything there either. And, to unravel another issue, I'm a she.
If you think I'm a troll, don't bother reading my posts. This is my last reply to you.
Timothy Claypole
They might fly a 100% schedule in the future but I believe it when I see it.
I don't know too much about EF but if it's accurate that they are only operating 450 to 550 hours a year, surely that's one of the areas where improvements could be made. I don't mind working a bit harder. The issue is not about getting the CSD back to their office. It's about imposition. Most flights are working well so to have the CSD part of the service is not really an issue.
I gave you a couple of examples of some cost saving measurements which BASSA have offered.
ChicoG
I'm not brainwashed. If I were, I wouldn't repeatably be saying that BASSA have made mistakes in the past and that they are not flawless. So, there's no need to feel sorry for me.
MrBunker
There's no evidence regarding BALPA's lanyards. I used it as an example which would be a typical one when it comes to BA. But, if you are to believe that BA is being held ransom over ST nothing would come as a surprise any longer. It's just interesting that we are not allowed to wear our union's lanyard whilst you are allowed to.
I can understand that you have a positive opinion of WW when you think of the deal you managed to get with BA. It's good to hear too that your recent trips have been delightful. Really.
What makes you certain that the volunteers jobs are safe?
Betty girl
No, you wouldn't have seen me on that particular forum as you are referring to a different member. I never post anything there either. And, to unravel another issue, I'm a she.
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What makes you certain that the volunteers jobs are safe?
Sadly in the past when BASSA has made mistakes they have been howlers. BASSA have managed over the years to totally alienate themselves as an organisation by deriding all those who don't share the same viewpoint as BASSA.
The comments above are a prime example.
People do exceptional things in exceptional circumstances and I feel, during these ill thought out strikes, these are exceptional circumstances.
Imposition was required as the Union failed, totally and utterly, to negotiate. Then BASSA blamed the company when the Union reps wouldn't even sit in the same room as each other, wouldn't agree to sign non disclosure agreements to view confidential figures and then wouldn't listen to 'lectures' from BA when BA tried to impress the precarious nature of the situation.
A child can only be given so many warnings and chances, eventually what is required of that child must be imposed. BASSA is a tantrum child.
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vcc
My department has just been told that we can release up to four staff members for vcc, if anyone is interested in applying.
There is obviously a cost implication as those that do volunteer will be covered by overtime.
But I guess it's considerably cheaper than cancelling flights and allowing the destruction of the company that the BASSA militants seem hell bent on doing.
There is obviously a cost implication as those that do volunteer will be covered by overtime.
But I guess it's considerably cheaper than cancelling flights and allowing the destruction of the company that the BASSA militants seem hell bent on doing.
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Volunteer jobs
What makes you certain that the volunteers jobs are safe?
Two points for you on this one- firstly in my case and most others, we have been doing the vol roles AND our work, coming in early, leaving late to fit it in around our shifts, not disappearing off and leaving work undone. My VCC colleagues have been doing the same, and what they cant do, the rest of the team picks up by doing even more- price to the company occassional unpaid TOIL days to make up the extra hour worked.
The second point, which i find deliciously ironic, given the scare mongering from BASSA on the subject, is that because we are all off doing other things, and work is taking longer to get done, actually our bosses and directors, are getting a taste of just how much we ARE needed, and how much we DO DO that is unseen, unsung, and missed when it doesnt happen. End result, actually a good wake up as to why the rest of us are looking more secure as a result of the strike! Brilliant!
Plus we now also have a pool of multidisciplinary staff, unlike nearly any other airline in the world. Having made so much time and money invested in training me and the other vols as VCC, Rebookers and Customer relations, the company is even LESS likely to want to get rid of us. Any decent business knows, that investing in their people is only worth doing, if you are keeping them around to benefit from your investment..
SO thank you strikers, for making me more valuable to my employers and helping to show my bosses how much they do in fact need us.
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I wouldn't be at all surprised to find the VCCs are offered the opportunity to fly as crew again in the future, reintroducing the historic role of 'support crew'. With a thousand trained volunteers there'd be no need to carry the extra heads that IFCE currently has to cover for the absenteeism spikes around school holidays, Wimbledon and Ascot. BA can simply offer the volunteers an occasional jolly on overtime and allowances to provide a break from the day job.
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Latest news from BBC
The latest attempt to secure an agreement between British Airways and the Unite union has failed, the conciliation service Acas has said.
Acas had given both sides a new set of proposals last week, but said that "regrettably" they were unable to move closer to a deal.
It said no new meetings were currently planned, but that it would monitor developments.
Cabin crew workers have been striking over working conditions.
Acas had given both sides a new set of proposals last week, but said that "regrettably" they were unable to move closer to a deal.
It said no new meetings were currently planned, but that it would monitor developments.
Cabin crew workers have been striking over working conditions.
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MissM,
BAAlltheway pretty much answers the question you've posed of me in terms of my belief/knowledge in the security of the jobs of volunteers. One of the guys I landed with over the weekend went straight from the aircraft to their engineering office to put in a couple of hours, and to that man I tip my hat in respect.
As for the lanyards, it exemplifies the point I'm making regarding stories with no fundamental basis in proof or fact. There is no evidence that an individual pilot is dictating the behaviour of BA wrt ST or any other issue in the airline. So a story you can't prove gains a life of its' own through no more than endless repetition. As for the lanyards, I suspect the same rules do apply to us but, to be honest, those responsible for enforcing the rules are two different sets of managers. I don't take my orders from IFCE any more than you take yours from Flt Ops. You can't be entirely surprised with the febrile nature of the relations between striking crew members and the company that they might see fit to rule by the book, surely?
Oh, and I didn't say I was a fan or otherwise of Willie Walsh. I'm emotionally and philosophically neutral to the guy. He's a businessman with a direct style of doing business. That's all.
Finally, regarding our deal, we sat down, we negotiated, we agreed. Something that seems to be singularly impossible to achieve between IFCE and its' unhappy employees. What seems more than certain to me is that you'll never achieve anything like what you might have done in June of last year and that should at least give pause for reflection on the past twelve months of both tactical and strategic decisions made by the union, often on your behalf without consultation. Remember the no negotiation show of hands at the racecourse? The deal you never got a vote on other than by a non quorate body at said racecourse had the potential to include share options, no more than pay freezes but it was never put to the wider membership and so, by a process of painful extrapolation, we are where we are now. It's not an object lesson in industrial relations wherever you sit with regard to the issue.
I do find it telling that the common emotional theme in your posts is that you just can't believe anything BA tell you. How you, and those who think like you, are to overcome that mental stumbling block will very much dictate how long the end game of this dispute will take. I hope we can both agree on one thing - sooner or later, there will be a settlement of sorts, and some trust will, by definition, have to be invested in the stakeholders of that settlement. Without that this will just run and run with no agreement because you can't bring yourselves to trust the company who pay you.
MrB
BAAlltheway pretty much answers the question you've posed of me in terms of my belief/knowledge in the security of the jobs of volunteers. One of the guys I landed with over the weekend went straight from the aircraft to their engineering office to put in a couple of hours, and to that man I tip my hat in respect.
As for the lanyards, it exemplifies the point I'm making regarding stories with no fundamental basis in proof or fact. There is no evidence that an individual pilot is dictating the behaviour of BA wrt ST or any other issue in the airline. So a story you can't prove gains a life of its' own through no more than endless repetition. As for the lanyards, I suspect the same rules do apply to us but, to be honest, those responsible for enforcing the rules are two different sets of managers. I don't take my orders from IFCE any more than you take yours from Flt Ops. You can't be entirely surprised with the febrile nature of the relations between striking crew members and the company that they might see fit to rule by the book, surely?
Oh, and I didn't say I was a fan or otherwise of Willie Walsh. I'm emotionally and philosophically neutral to the guy. He's a businessman with a direct style of doing business. That's all.
Finally, regarding our deal, we sat down, we negotiated, we agreed. Something that seems to be singularly impossible to achieve between IFCE and its' unhappy employees. What seems more than certain to me is that you'll never achieve anything like what you might have done in June of last year and that should at least give pause for reflection on the past twelve months of both tactical and strategic decisions made by the union, often on your behalf without consultation. Remember the no negotiation show of hands at the racecourse? The deal you never got a vote on other than by a non quorate body at said racecourse had the potential to include share options, no more than pay freezes but it was never put to the wider membership and so, by a process of painful extrapolation, we are where we are now. It's not an object lesson in industrial relations wherever you sit with regard to the issue.
I do find it telling that the common emotional theme in your posts is that you just can't believe anything BA tell you. How you, and those who think like you, are to overcome that mental stumbling block will very much dictate how long the end game of this dispute will take. I hope we can both agree on one thing - sooner or later, there will be a settlement of sorts, and some trust will, by definition, have to be invested in the stakeholders of that settlement. Without that this will just run and run with no agreement because you can't bring yourselves to trust the company who pay you.
MrB
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MissM,
Your response to MrBunkers statements, especially the opinion that he is some how enamoured by WW beacuase of his ''good'' deal again is way off.
The BASSA publisised pilots deal and the actual deal are very, very different. I suggest you ask a knowledgeable pilot what the actual deal is as you seem to be under the impression it was extremely generous.
I'll say no more. As the moderator points out this is about the ''CC'' deal. I just wish you would argue your case with facts and not BASSA spin. False allegations and manipulated figures just undermine your argument.
Your response to MrBunkers statements, especially the opinion that he is some how enamoured by WW beacuase of his ''good'' deal again is way off.
The BASSA publisised pilots deal and the actual deal are very, very different. I suggest you ask a knowledgeable pilot what the actual deal is as you seem to be under the impression it was extremely generous.
I'll say no more. As the moderator points out this is about the ''CC'' deal. I just wish you would argue your case with facts and not BASSA spin. False allegations and manipulated figures just undermine your argument.
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Wirbelsturm
Because there seems to be enough time available for them to be away from their original duties, including both whilst being in training and out on flying duties. It's time consuming as it is to be only doing one role.
BASSA are not the only one to be blamed. BA also have their "fair share" for not reaching an agreement. Assumingly because WW doesn't even want to. There were never any problems for him to reach an agreement with the pilots or the engineers for that matter.
RadarIdent
What a sense of duty. Backing BA and getting paid overtime. Another proof that this is not a fight for survival as there seems to be money in every corner.
BAAlltheway
The company might not want to get rid of you whilst this dispute is still unresolved. Who should they turn to for "support"? But, who can say. Maybe you will still be here in ten or twenty years. Nobody can.
Good on you for feeling valued by BA.
Timothy Claypole
Unfortunately, it appears to be accurate that the VCC's will be given an occasional trip to be kept in recency to cover for any future disruption.
.
This is a question, or should I call it an urgent request, to HiFlyer14, Tiramisu, Betty Girl and all of the other cabin crew members who crossed the picket line.
When New Fleet is commencing, because we all know that we can't stop it from happening, I should hope that you will be first ones asking for a transfer and a new contract?
Because there seems to be enough time available for them to be away from their original duties, including both whilst being in training and out on flying duties. It's time consuming as it is to be only doing one role.
BASSA are not the only one to be blamed. BA also have their "fair share" for not reaching an agreement. Assumingly because WW doesn't even want to. There were never any problems for him to reach an agreement with the pilots or the engineers for that matter.
RadarIdent
What a sense of duty. Backing BA and getting paid overtime. Another proof that this is not a fight for survival as there seems to be money in every corner.
BAAlltheway
The company might not want to get rid of you whilst this dispute is still unresolved. Who should they turn to for "support"? But, who can say. Maybe you will still be here in ten or twenty years. Nobody can.
Good on you for feeling valued by BA.
Timothy Claypole
Unfortunately, it appears to be accurate that the VCC's will be given an occasional trip to be kept in recency to cover for any future disruption.
.
This is a question, or should I call it an urgent request, to HiFlyer14, Tiramisu, Betty Girl and all of the other cabin crew members who crossed the picket line.
When New Fleet is commencing, because we all know that we can't stop it from happening, I should hope that you will be first ones asking for a transfer and a new contract?
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BASSA are not the only one to be blamed. BA also have their "fair share" for not reaching an agreement. Assumingly because WW doesn't even want to. There were never any problems for him to reach an agreement with the pilots or the engineers for that matter.
A deal was reached with the other Unions as they had the temerity to negotiate. BASSA wouldn't.
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Do as you would be done by..
Maybe you will still be here in ten or twenty years. Nobody can.
If so, then I entirely agree and thats the point! Having been through multiple rounds of re-orgs and VR, VS, pretty much NO other staffing group apart from IFCE believes that there can be any guarantees about our jobs. What we DO know is that without a strong company, with the ability to grow profitably, NONE of us have any job security at all. Refusing to move with the times, and trying to stick with ancient working practices is a guaranteed one way road to the dole office. Much as we might not LIKE working harder, with less opportunity for promotion, and smaller pay awards, it is the best way to protect our future. If i want to be secure in my job, the best thing i can do is work hard, be great at what i do, adapt, and work FOR future BA not against it. Sure, it might not work out the way i want it, but its by far a better bet than sticking ones hands over ones ears whilst ruining the company who give you a job and pissing off the customers who pay our wages!
You feel free to strike, your choice. Absolutely. I think i'd rather go my way. Lets see who is in a better position in 5 years time.
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Miss M,
That is such a silly thing to say.
It is the fact that BASSA has not negotiated now and in the past that WW has brought in New Fleet. They offered for new entrants to come on to our fleet but BASSA would not negotiate.
We have spent years and years with them not negotiating. New Fleet is BASSA's fault.
Incidentaly those on post 97 contracts maywell be attracted to New Fleet.
Some may like the new incharge role doing a mixture of WW and Euro work.
Noone is being made to go over anyway. That is something that BASSA have made up.
That is such a silly thing to say.
It is the fact that BASSA has not negotiated now and in the past that WW has brought in New Fleet. They offered for new entrants to come on to our fleet but BASSA would not negotiate.
We have spent years and years with them not negotiating. New Fleet is BASSA's fault.
Incidentaly those on post 97 contracts maywell be attracted to New Fleet.
Some may like the new incharge role doing a mixture of WW and Euro work.
Noone is being made to go over anyway. That is something that BASSA have made up.