British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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BA AGM
I know the above featured here a few days ago. There is a report on the Telegraph website of events at the meeting today. The link is:
British Airways AGM: as it happened - Telegraph
Some of the more relevant points from the above:
Also interesting to see the re-election numbers for those Directors up for re-election.
British Airways AGM: as it happened - Telegraph
Some of the more relevant points from the above:
- WW actually got applause when he sat down after his formal speech
- An employee asks why BA is refusing to do the same deal with cabin crew as with the pilots. Walsh counters: "Our cabin crew and pilots do not have the same agreement. They have been different for many years. It would be beneficial if we did have the same agreement." (My emphasis)
- After 27 questions, voting has begun. Remuneration report gets 99.4pc vote in favour. Broughton re-elected with 99.47pc but finance director Keith Williams does better still - 99.78. Doesn't look like much dissent over the management then. (My emphasis)
Also interesting to see the re-election numbers for those Directors up for re-election.
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BA AGM - Bloomberg edition
Additional points/quotes carried on the Bloomberg report of the above (see article at British Airways Says Job Cuts Vital, May Sell Bonds (Update1) - Bloomberg.com):
“There is no point trying to skirt around the fact that we need a fundamental and structural change to our employee cost base. These changes are essential to our short- term survival and more importantly to our long-term viability.” (WW)
"WW [said] that the airline may also cut number of business-class seats and didn’t rule out single-class operations from London’s Gatwick airport, which has been reduced in importance as a hub for the airline."
“There is evidence that business customers no longer place the same value on the levels of flexibility offered in the highest fare categories,”
"Premium traffic at British Airways has fallen for 10 straight months, with a decline of almost 15 percent in June comparing with a slide of 1.3 percent in economy-class sales."
The last three quotes suggest a fundamental strategic shift away from reliance on the premium market may be taking place. Premium fares generally are certainly down very considerably (up to 50% reductions openly available, even higher discounts on offer according to anecdotal evidence). It's difficult to see how this discounting can be reversed (other than by taking out capacity long-term), meaning BA and similar airlines are going to suffer long-term margin erosion as well. WW's comments on structural changes to the cost base imply an acceptance of this by BA, and a consequent need to cut costs in order to partly mitigate against this loss of margin.
“There is no point trying to skirt around the fact that we need a fundamental and structural change to our employee cost base. These changes are essential to our short- term survival and more importantly to our long-term viability.” (WW)
- BA looking at a convertible bond issue, rather than a Rights (share) issue. Makes sense. Means shares don't get issued at a discount to what is (hopefully) an already depressed share price.
"WW [said] that the airline may also cut number of business-class seats and didn’t rule out single-class operations from London’s Gatwick airport, which has been reduced in importance as a hub for the airline."
“There is evidence that business customers no longer place the same value on the levels of flexibility offered in the highest fare categories,”
"Premium traffic at British Airways has fallen for 10 straight months, with a decline of almost 15 percent in June comparing with a slide of 1.3 percent in economy-class sales."
The last three quotes suggest a fundamental strategic shift away from reliance on the premium market may be taking place. Premium fares generally are certainly down very considerably (up to 50% reductions openly available, even higher discounts on offer according to anecdotal evidence). It's difficult to see how this discounting can be reversed (other than by taking out capacity long-term), meaning BA and similar airlines are going to suffer long-term margin erosion as well. WW's comments on structural changes to the cost base imply an acceptance of this by BA, and a consequent need to cut costs in order to partly mitigate against this loss of margin.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Beware pilots, there is a rally call on the other forums to come on here and attack pilots’ t&cs. They obviously have no other form of defence - BASSA at its' best. Best ignore it, like you would a 5 year old - the mods will delete it all soon enough.
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Stall Pusher, you have been given ample opportunity here to voice your and BASSA´s point of view here within the rules of PPRune and this forum specifically.
You have time and time again decided that the rules do not apply to you. You choose to blame ´pilots´ for the fact that you can not carry on as you please here. This despite the fact that the forum mods here are cabin crew, and this thread is not moderated by even one single pilot.
You have outlasted your welcome well and truly.
We have spent more time on your antics than is reasonable.
Bye bye.
You have time and time again decided that the rules do not apply to you. You choose to blame ´pilots´ for the fact that you can not carry on as you please here. This despite the fact that the forum mods here are cabin crew, and this thread is not moderated by even one single pilot.
You have outlasted your welcome well and truly.
We have spent more time on your antics than is reasonable.
Bye bye.
Last edited by Stall Pusher; 14th Jul 2009 at 16:56.
So much talk on conditions, redundancies and even strikes........
SKY news made a link to a report on holidays/travel and made the comment " ..... if the planes are running....."
If this line of though has already started in business/general public, how many booking do you think BA will lose over the rest of the summer as people look for any other airline to travel on which is not talking of strikes?
Is the damage already being done???
How much potential business will be lost for those left???
Will this kind of talk and reporting in the media just make the whole situation worse for BA? and how many more will lose their jobs as a result??
Maybe the Unions should spare a though for those that will be left in the company after they have finished shouting their accusations??
SKY news made a link to a report on holidays/travel and made the comment " ..... if the planes are running....."
If this line of though has already started in business/general public, how many booking do you think BA will lose over the rest of the summer as people look for any other airline to travel on which is not talking of strikes?
Is the damage already being done???
How much potential business will be lost for those left???
Will this kind of talk and reporting in the media just make the whole situation worse for BA? and how many more will lose their jobs as a result??
Maybe the Unions should spare a though for those that will be left in the company after they have finished shouting their accusations??
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The unions Serentiy have been playing a defensive game, if you haven't noticed.
The only person who has been talking BA down is BA's own CEO. Richard Branson made the comment that Walsh: "was talking BA into an early grave".
Yes Branson said Walsh was talking BA into an early grave, NOT the unions.
The only person who has been talking BA down is BA's own CEO. Richard Branson made the comment that Walsh: "was talking BA into an early grave".
Yes Branson said Walsh was talking BA into an early grave, NOT the unions.
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Stall Pusher wrote;
Frankly, you've highlighted an attitude that our fare paying passengers have now come to expect.
What you're actually saying is that he had to make a choice, back off or all our fare paying passengers didn't have a crew.
So you'd have abandoned not only the outbound passengers but ALSO the return crew INBOUND passengers then.
How unprofessional and very sad.
A Captain in my last Briefing made the mistake of dictating to the crew about the current situation. He was told basically to F&*% off. He had to make a choice, back off or he didn't have a crew.
What you're actually saying is that he had to make a choice, back off or all our fare paying passengers didn't have a crew.
So you'd have abandoned not only the outbound passengers but ALSO the return crew INBOUND passengers then.
How unprofessional and very sad.
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Oh dear oh dear oh dear!
It's general protocol that if you are criticising something you need some sort of factual basis to it. You seem to be somewhat short on facts.
Plenty more crew sitting around CRC and Arora. If you don't want to fly then get off and you'll be replaced without undue delay. Then you can explain your walk out to the disciplinary committee. Remeber what happened to the last people who walked off the job?
Anyone here scared of a few shrieking hysterical militants?
He most certainly did not say that! Remind me which is the only profitable part of BA at the moment? Remind me how we'd find all the slots at LHR to fly the LGW services? It seems you experienced a different AGM to everyone else. Perhaps it's because you were outside doing an impression of a lemming?
By the way, what happened to that shareholder revolt against Walsh and Broughton you were predicting?
Are they really? What was it I said about our leisure routes from LGW are doing?
Do keep posting Stall Pusher, your barmy rants and tenuous grasp on reality are a great source of entertainment!
PS You're not secretly Heavy Crew are you?
Well Human Factor. This is a pilot forum after all. It is fine for you to attack cabin crew T&C's, but we cannot criticise you own inefficiences and excessive pay.
A Captain in my last Briefing made the mistake of dictating to the crew about the current situation. He was told basically to F&*% off. He had to make a choice, back off or he didn't have a crew.
So I would suggest while some of you may feel free to express your feelings here in the cloak of anonymity, try it for real and you will soon find out what we think of you and your cushy deal.
read what Walsh has said today at the AGM. LGW has reduced in its importance to BA. Long haul out of LGW will be finished by next summer. Now what are you going to do now?
By the way, what happened to that shareholder revolt against Walsh and Broughton you were predicting?
It is suffering more because of its exposure to the leisure market where bookings are in freefall for this winter and next year
Do keep posting Stall Pusher, your barmy rants and tenuous grasp on reality are a great source of entertainment!
PS You're not secretly Heavy Crew are you?
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Virgin
I've no idea how deep the pockets of Richard B are...but as Singapore Airlines have 49% of Virgin and Singapore airlines is largely owned and backed Temasek Holdings, which is really the government of Singapore...then I guess the potential pockets are as deep as are needed.
I've no doubt that the managers will be required to do all possible to cut costs and reduce losses...but I don't imagine they're on their way under.
I've no doubt that the managers will be required to do all possible to cut costs and reduce losses...but I don't imagine they're on their way under.
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Stall Pusher 
said
Oh yes they can! but more importantly:
BA Cabin Crew figures:
Annual costs of £564m (14,000 crew)
Average cost per crew member (from CAA): BA £29.9k, VS ~£14.5k
VS CC bill for same numbers would be ~£290m (saving of £270m pa)
BA are asking for a saving of £86m and suggesting a new fleet rate of VS/Industry standard +10%
I think you need to realise how 'relatively' minor the BA demands are, and how that much of the savings can be achieved by increased productivity in SH (which is lamentable) and by changes to disruption agreements in LH etc, thus retaining the net figure on the payslip.
If your reps had been proactive in the process, you could have come out of this relatively unscathed, but unfortunately you have been let down very badly.
As for CC as individuals I have sympathy. As for BASSA, I have none, you are about to be shafted, and for that WW has my absolute support.
Do you really think that the current situation has been arrived at by your reps 'skillful' tactics or that WW has you exactly where he wants you?
said
4. It can't cut the pay of its cabin crew any further.
I mention this as it appears that it is only the T&C's of cabin crew which determine whether an airline survives the recession or not.
I mention this as it appears that it is only the T&C's of cabin crew which determine whether an airline survives the recession or not.
BA Cabin Crew figures:
Annual costs of £564m (14,000 crew)
Average cost per crew member (from CAA): BA £29.9k, VS ~£14.5k
VS CC bill for same numbers would be ~£290m (saving of £270m pa)
BA are asking for a saving of £86m and suggesting a new fleet rate of VS/Industry standard +10%
I think you need to realise how 'relatively' minor the BA demands are, and how that much of the savings can be achieved by increased productivity in SH (which is lamentable) and by changes to disruption agreements in LH etc, thus retaining the net figure on the payslip.
If your reps had been proactive in the process, you could have come out of this relatively unscathed, but unfortunately you have been let down very badly.
As for CC as individuals I have sympathy. As for BASSA, I have none, you are about to be shafted, and for that WW has my absolute support.
Do you really think that the current situation has been arrived at by your reps 'skillful' tactics or that WW has you exactly where he wants you?
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I've no idea how deep the pockets of Richard B are...but as Singapore Airlines have 49% of Virgin and Singapore airlines is largely owned and backed Temasek Holdings, which is really the government of Singapore...then I guess the potential pockets are as deep as are needed.
I've no doubt that the managers will be required to do all possible to cut costs and reduce losses...but I don't imagine they're on their way under.
I've no doubt that the managers will be required to do all possible to cut costs and reduce losses...but I don't imagine they're on their way under.
I don't think SIA pockets are that deep as to pay in further without drastic changes. I'm sure that the CC on here (witha few exceptions such as GG) will continue to blame WW and deny permanent change is needed. Me thinks the lemmings in the cages have more sense than the BASSA reps at this point.
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Adi54321,
Sorry, my post does read as if I'm saying SIA will give them infinite support...but what I meant to point out was that they are lucky to have some very wealthy backers, without which they'd be a lot closer to the edge. I know there have been rumours before about SIA wanting to offload Virgin.
On the messages coming from the AGM, I'm wondering if we are going to refit everything to low club configs and make money in the only area that is holding any value...the economy cabin. Do you think the premium economy product will go?
It only feels like moments ago that we were desperate to increase our club capacity, doesn't it? Oh well, say what you like about aviation...it ain't dull!
Top Bunk,
Bill F says the orignial ask was for £84m. Following the end of year results it became to absorb the loss of 2000 full-time jobs. Bill F says there is no longer a financial target (I'm sure BA know exactly what their changes will generate, they just don't want the numbers discussed because they look scary).
The new rate of £11k basic + £8K performance pay is no lower than the current starter rate...it is the fact that there are no annual increments plus scheduling the new crew to scheme that will be an enormous saving. The starter rates at LHR are £11.5k plus variable at LGW they are £11k plus flight pay.
I personally think that the new structure they are looking to create is to massively reduce crew retention. The only purpose of increments is to keep staff. Thinking back to the 80's and 90's...a lot of cabin crew used to leave (despite financial rewards for staying) because the job was so very difficult to combine with a family.
Then BA introduced part time contracts (nearly 50% of us on them already) in response to legislation for parental rights and pressure for flexible working. I'm sure more crew stay on and begin to cost more in terms of salary and pension.
With a pay structure that holds the vast majority of crew around the starter rate very few will be able/willing to stay long-term. My opinion is that this is the strategy behind the changes being sought.
Sorry, my post does read as if I'm saying SIA will give them infinite support...but what I meant to point out was that they are lucky to have some very wealthy backers, without which they'd be a lot closer to the edge. I know there have been rumours before about SIA wanting to offload Virgin.
On the messages coming from the AGM, I'm wondering if we are going to refit everything to low club configs and make money in the only area that is holding any value...the economy cabin. Do you think the premium economy product will go?
It only feels like moments ago that we were desperate to increase our club capacity, doesn't it? Oh well, say what you like about aviation...it ain't dull!
Top Bunk,
Bill F says the orignial ask was for £84m. Following the end of year results it became to absorb the loss of 2000 full-time jobs. Bill F says there is no longer a financial target (I'm sure BA know exactly what their changes will generate, they just don't want the numbers discussed because they look scary).
The new rate of £11k basic + £8K performance pay is no lower than the current starter rate...it is the fact that there are no annual increments plus scheduling the new crew to scheme that will be an enormous saving. The starter rates at LHR are £11.5k plus variable at LGW they are £11k plus flight pay.
I personally think that the new structure they are looking to create is to massively reduce crew retention. The only purpose of increments is to keep staff. Thinking back to the 80's and 90's...a lot of cabin crew used to leave (despite financial rewards for staying) because the job was so very difficult to combine with a family.
Then BA introduced part time contracts (nearly 50% of us on them already) in response to legislation for parental rights and pressure for flexible working. I'm sure more crew stay on and begin to cost more in terms of salary and pension.
With a pay structure that holds the vast majority of crew around the starter rate very few will be able/willing to stay long-term. My opinion is that this is the strategy behind the changes being sought.
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Reargunner said:
It's no rumour. SIA have made clear their dissatisfaction with the performance of VS and have been wanting to offload their stake for years.
Virgin are doing badly (£100m quarterly loss) but it is the one business Richard Branson has held on to whilst he has been happy to sell on the others. For Richard Branson, I think the cost of recapitalising Virgin may be less than the loss of personal pride if the company went under.
I know there have been rumours before about SIA wanting to offload Virgin.
Virgin are doing badly (£100m quarterly loss) but it is the one business Richard Branson has held on to whilst he has been happy to sell on the others. For Richard Branson, I think the cost of recapitalising Virgin may be less than the loss of personal pride if the company went under.
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For Richard Branson, I think the cost of recapitalising Virgin may be less than the loss of personal pride if the company went under.
Earlier this evening Stallpusher himself posts this, obviously received from the Mods:
And then half an hour later he is back again making another post including the likes of
Good grief! Obviously doesn't he know the meaning of "outlasted your welcome well and truly" or "Bye bye". No wonder the negotiations haven't .... er .... gone well. Always on 'transmit' and never 'receive'. 
Stall Pusher, ..............
You have outlasted your welcome well and truly.
We have spent more time on your antics than is reasonable.
Bye bye.
You have outlasted your welcome well and truly.
We have spent more time on your antics than is reasonable.
Bye bye.
The only person who has been talking BA down is BA's own CEO
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Briefings
I see a few posts here regarding Flight Crew making statements in our briefings.
Well, my recent experience (over the last couple of weeks) is that most "statements" are coming from my fellow Cabin Crew, (in most cases started by the SCCM). No thought as to the possibility of others holding different views, or maybe having researched independantly.
What's odd is that whenever this happens, the rest of the CC will either apparently agree (quite strongly, in most cases) or stay noticeably silent. Of those that appear to agree, some, if questioned later on their own will express somewhat different views. Confused.com?
I've now taken to leaving the briefing room when this happens, as cannot be bothered with the "it's illegal" (2 days ago), "we'll show them" (3 days ago) and other such well-informed statements.
Briefings are about SEP, team building, standards and service aren't they?
Re the AGM: I wonder if the message will now get through that MB, WW, KW etc are supported by the shareholders? Without the lemmings, I doubt the unions would have had even the minimal coverage they got yesterday.
Well, my recent experience (over the last couple of weeks) is that most "statements" are coming from my fellow Cabin Crew, (in most cases started by the SCCM). No thought as to the possibility of others holding different views, or maybe having researched independantly.
What's odd is that whenever this happens, the rest of the CC will either apparently agree (quite strongly, in most cases) or stay noticeably silent. Of those that appear to agree, some, if questioned later on their own will express somewhat different views. Confused.com?
I've now taken to leaving the briefing room when this happens, as cannot be bothered with the "it's illegal" (2 days ago), "we'll show them" (3 days ago) and other such well-informed statements.
Briefings are about SEP, team building, standards and service aren't they?
Re the AGM: I wonder if the message will now get through that MB, WW, KW etc are supported by the shareholders? Without the lemmings, I doubt the unions would have had even the minimal coverage they got yesterday.
TorC
A question - Are these discussions about Industrial Issues taking place during the informal chit chat prior to report or is it being discussed during the formal briefing?
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Oh dear...
Here's quote I just couldn't keep from you:
"Even lemmings could have organised a better protest. "
Says it all really...
Source
BA bust up that never quite took off - Telegraph
"Even lemmings could have organised a better protest. "
Says it all really...
Source
BA bust up that never quite took off - Telegraph
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TorC and Wiggy. In my wife's briefings she makes it clear that the topic is not up for discussion in the briefing, on the plane or anywhere near a passenger. She's happy to talk in the bar but thinks it unprofessional/unsafe to do so elsewhere. Top lass!
MrB
MrB