BA and Project Columbus III
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bodmin, Cornshire
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OverStress: After 9/11 First class cabins were closed on most flights and cabin crew compliments reduced correspondingly.
Obviously premium loads must be standing up quite well, otherwise the same measures would have been adopted again.
747-436: So what would these ex-directors put on their CV's if they "sought similar positions again"? What sort of reference would Willie give them? I think they should be allowed to clear their names and talk about the mistakes they made. They did have 45 years service in BA between them, I would like to hear them give their version of events.
We digress....
Obviously premium loads must be standing up quite well, otherwise the same measures would have been adopted again.
747-436: So what would these ex-directors put on their CV's if they "sought similar positions again"? What sort of reference would Willie give them? I think they should be allowed to clear their names and talk about the mistakes they made. They did have 45 years service in BA between them, I would like to hear them give their version of events.
We digress....
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It may help outsiders to know that two thirds of the cabin crew pay budget in BA is currently spent on only one third of the workforce...
From the CAA web site - average cost of BA Cabin crew - £29,900
Multiply that by 14,000 cabin crew - £419m.
Two Thirds of £419M is £280m.
One third of the 14,000 cabin crew is 4,600 members.
So the top third cost BA £60,800 each.
But the majority, two thirds (9400 cabin crew) cost BA £14,800.
So the vast majority of the British Airways Senior Stewards Association members are paid significantly less than average but are being asked to support a very well paid few.
So who does Bassa really represent....
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously premium loads must be standing up quite well, otherwise the same measures would have been adopted again.
Shutting cabins is cutting off the nose to spite the face. The profits are made up front; without the opportunity to earn from those cabins - if they are shut - the whole airline may as well not bother to continue. Eddington had them shut short term - we are talking about cuts into Winter 2009/2010.
Far better to cut the crew complement, keep the cabins open, and provide the service the customers pay for.
Or would you rather be in the bunk again?
Regarding the fired directors - those involved in price fixing are still involved in legal action in the US and EU. Hence their lack of media communication. The answer to problems is not bleating to the media, but working through them and moving on...
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stall Pusher writes:
Obviously premium loads must be standing up quite well, otherwise the same measures would have been adopted again.
Actually further steps have been taken!
When was the last time you were on a BA aircraft Stall Pusher? (Too much time on the internet in the BASSA office me thinks when you should be seeing the realities of the 'coal face'!)
The previously empty premium cabins are now full...with invol upgrades. Last flight I operated (two days ago) 51 overbooked, every seat in the 777 taken, only 4 of the premium cabin being full fare pax. A previously unheard of 'diluting of the product'!!! How many of the full fare WT and WTP pax had paid knock down fares? Most. 4 days before we left the flight was wide open with reduced fares available.
Bums on seats and open cabins is no indication of yield.
Those prices will not keep us in the manner we are accustomed, flight crew or cabin crew (or anyone else in the company for that matter). Looking at the projections from our main prem customers they see no improvement in their premium travel budgets until around 2016 not 2011.
Waking up and sniffing coffee is too late and clearly never going to be enough for (what seems to be) a very vocal but significant minority who do not have the independence of thought to look beyond BASSA's preaching and see the chasm at the end of the path which they are being led down.
However BA got to this position is now irrelevant. Who led us here is immaterial, whether the management should have pre-empted this situation of no bearing.
We are where we are. It is now about how thinly we can can spread our weight to avoid sinking in the quicksand. Do you want to live and crawl out of the other side without anything but the shirt on your back, but still survive OR take the BASSA line and stand to attention in full dress uniform applying the final touches to your hair as the sand passes up over your eyes.
The choice is not BASSA's, but for a fully informed membership to take. If the vast majority of fantastic people who make up BA CC are taken to a strike to later find out the reality of the half truths and propaganda they have been fed to meet the unions and not their best interests it will be an end to BASSA anyway.
Obviously premium loads must be standing up quite well, otherwise the same measures would have been adopted again.
Actually further steps have been taken!
When was the last time you were on a BA aircraft Stall Pusher? (Too much time on the internet in the BASSA office me thinks when you should be seeing the realities of the 'coal face'!)
The previously empty premium cabins are now full...with invol upgrades. Last flight I operated (two days ago) 51 overbooked, every seat in the 777 taken, only 4 of the premium cabin being full fare pax. A previously unheard of 'diluting of the product'!!! How many of the full fare WT and WTP pax had paid knock down fares? Most. 4 days before we left the flight was wide open with reduced fares available.
Bums on seats and open cabins is no indication of yield.
Those prices will not keep us in the manner we are accustomed, flight crew or cabin crew (or anyone else in the company for that matter). Looking at the projections from our main prem customers they see no improvement in their premium travel budgets until around 2016 not 2011.
Waking up and sniffing coffee is too late and clearly never going to be enough for (what seems to be) a very vocal but significant minority who do not have the independence of thought to look beyond BASSA's preaching and see the chasm at the end of the path which they are being led down.
However BA got to this position is now irrelevant. Who led us here is immaterial, whether the management should have pre-empted this situation of no bearing.
We are where we are. It is now about how thinly we can can spread our weight to avoid sinking in the quicksand. Do you want to live and crawl out of the other side without anything but the shirt on your back, but still survive OR take the BASSA line and stand to attention in full dress uniform applying the final touches to your hair as the sand passes up over your eyes.
The choice is not BASSA's, but for a fully informed membership to take. If the vast majority of fantastic people who make up BA CC are taken to a strike to later find out the reality of the half truths and propaganda they have been fed to meet the unions and not their best interests it will be an end to BASSA anyway.
N4790P
The previously empty premium cabins are now full...with invol upgrades.
Isn’t this the very reason for dress codes and ‘mums the word’ when travelling on ID tickets?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: uk
Age: 55
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stall pusher,
you ask so many questions and avoid dicussing the realities . To compare WW to RE is completely irrelivant .WW is actually more likely to make the very diificult decisions required to keep the company in buisness . I don't like it either . Rest assured ,i'm sure he will be after the pilots again soon ,most likely over pensions.
If you plot a graph,BASSA has done a fantastic job of protection the conditions of service of what is now a minority of senior crew .It is this group that have most to lose and will be staring over the abyss .
If you were running the show,would you want flights to be delayed for not going "one down" when you still had well over the legal compliment of crew,would you ? YES or NO stall pusher?
You can legally depart with the CSD and 3 pursars missing from a long haul jet ,now,i'm not advocating that but when we are struggling to exist as a company what extreme measures would be going through our willies mind?
BASSA MUST negotiate ,for BA's sake,for it's own sake and therefore for all our sake . Some crew will suffer under these new terms ,it's going to be awful but the reality is that the old job aint there anymore.
It's carnage in the outside economy BTW ,just coz the BBC dont broardcast it,things are nasty out there.
Please don't compare cabin crew and pilots ,its a wind up for both parties and irrelivant anyway.
I'm very concerned that BASSA may lead some really super crew into a dead end with no escape.......30th June.........
you ask so many questions and avoid dicussing the realities . To compare WW to RE is completely irrelivant .WW is actually more likely to make the very diificult decisions required to keep the company in buisness . I don't like it either . Rest assured ,i'm sure he will be after the pilots again soon ,most likely over pensions.
If you plot a graph,BASSA has done a fantastic job of protection the conditions of service of what is now a minority of senior crew .It is this group that have most to lose and will be staring over the abyss .
If you were running the show,would you want flights to be delayed for not going "one down" when you still had well over the legal compliment of crew,would you ? YES or NO stall pusher?
You can legally depart with the CSD and 3 pursars missing from a long haul jet ,now,i'm not advocating that but when we are struggling to exist as a company what extreme measures would be going through our willies mind?
BASSA MUST negotiate ,for BA's sake,for it's own sake and therefore for all our sake . Some crew will suffer under these new terms ,it's going to be awful but the reality is that the old job aint there anymore.
It's carnage in the outside economy BTW ,just coz the BBC dont broardcast it,things are nasty out there.
Please don't compare cabin crew and pilots ,its a wind up for both parties and irrelivant anyway.
I'm very concerned that BASSA may lead some really super crew into a dead end with no escape.......30th June.........
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Out and About
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Invol Upgrades & Yield
Op-Up 30 hours before departure! - FlyerTalk Forums
This chap has paid £560 for a WTP trip. (£400 base fare for W plus £80 each way to upgrade himself to WTP). 30hours out he has already been Invol Upgraded to J on the 1st sector, while the flight is still selling deeply discounted W fares.
Full marks to Revenue Mngmnt for at least trying to squeeze every last penny out of each flight. But at these levels, we may as well be paying them to fly.
At least at the moment we are still advertising each cabin at it's correct respective fare, and will consequently still be getting some (probably very few) sales at those prices. But there will come a time when we will have to simplyfy everything and actually start selling J to wherever at £560 simply to generate cash-flow. Doing that, will, I fear, put out an even stronger message regards the state of BA than the work-for-free one.
This chap has paid £560 for a WTP trip. (£400 base fare for W plus £80 each way to upgrade himself to WTP). 30hours out he has already been Invol Upgraded to J on the 1st sector, while the flight is still selling deeply discounted W fares.
Full marks to Revenue Mngmnt for at least trying to squeeze every last penny out of each flight. But at these levels, we may as well be paying them to fly.
At least at the moment we are still advertising each cabin at it's correct respective fare, and will consequently still be getting some (probably very few) sales at those prices. But there will come a time when we will have to simplyfy everything and actually start selling J to wherever at £560 simply to generate cash-flow. Doing that, will, I fear, put out an even stronger message regards the state of BA than the work-for-free one.
Nigel_Normale,
As much as anyone might agree with your sentiments, you run a real risk of having your post (your one and only post as of this time and date) deleted and your alter ego banished with comments like that. Steady on old chap .....
Stall Pusher is, unfortunately, one of the militant brigade within BASSA - feet of clay, likely a rep, now very cornered and behaving like a wounded animal. You are unlikely to get any commonsense out of him/her. Protection of his/her outrageous salary/Ts & Cs (when compared to any realistic industry standard) is all that matters, and lying and obfuscating is part of the game in an attempt to preserve that position.
Think about it - a lot of jumped-up individuals in BASSA's ivory tower of 'leadership' have been wielding power, to which they have no right, for decades in messing about with BAs operation. They are now faced with losing that power, and are very frightened indeed, so much so that you are seeing the cornered animal behaviour displayed here and elsewhere.
Its going to get very messy, blood everywhere, but Stallpusher and those of similar ilk are likely to get their come-uppance. What the rest of BA hope is that their behaviour doesn't bring down the entire company, although many of these militant BASSA lot are saying they would like to do exactly that! Pathetic!
As much as anyone might agree with your sentiments, you run a real risk of having your post (your one and only post as of this time and date) deleted and your alter ego banished with comments like that. Steady on old chap .....
Stall Pusher is, unfortunately, one of the militant brigade within BASSA - feet of clay, likely a rep, now very cornered and behaving like a wounded animal. You are unlikely to get any commonsense out of him/her. Protection of his/her outrageous salary/Ts & Cs (when compared to any realistic industry standard) is all that matters, and lying and obfuscating is part of the game in an attempt to preserve that position.
Think about it - a lot of jumped-up individuals in BASSA's ivory tower of 'leadership' have been wielding power, to which they have no right, for decades in messing about with BAs operation. They are now faced with losing that power, and are very frightened indeed, so much so that you are seeing the cornered animal behaviour displayed here and elsewhere.
Its going to get very messy, blood everywhere, but Stallpusher and those of similar ilk are likely to get their come-uppance. What the rest of BA hope is that their behaviour doesn't bring down the entire company, although many of these militant BASSA lot are saying they would like to do exactly that! Pathetic!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly, due to the constant, unyielding intransigence of BASSA over the years, added to the weak willed approach by senior management to the ever growing financial divide within the Cabin Crew community, Willie Walsh is considered the perfect man for the job.
He has no problem dealing head on with problem unions. His approach certainly doesn't make him friends and many would argue that his time at Air Lingus and his subsequent decision to jump before he was pushed was down to pressure from the Unions on Bertie O'Hearn at the time.
Simple fact is that he WILL get the unions who won't negotiate quashed, he WILL force through radical changes on the CC and the ones who will lose the most and feel the pain the most will be those sitting at the top of the Ivory tower. Many would say that they have had years to enjoy the pay situation and have had their time at the top. That is why BASSA are squirming so much trying to bleat their way their way out of a corner.
Hopefully the junior crew will not get hit too hard and we can continue to enjoy a good working relationship into the future without the big bully BASSA hanging over everything we do.
He has no problem dealing head on with problem unions. His approach certainly doesn't make him friends and many would argue that his time at Air Lingus and his subsequent decision to jump before he was pushed was down to pressure from the Unions on Bertie O'Hearn at the time.
Simple fact is that he WILL get the unions who won't negotiate quashed, he WILL force through radical changes on the CC and the ones who will lose the most and feel the pain the most will be those sitting at the top of the Ivory tower. Many would say that they have had years to enjoy the pay situation and have had their time at the top. That is why BASSA are squirming so much trying to bleat their way their way out of a corner.
Hopefully the junior crew will not get hit too hard and we can continue to enjoy a good working relationship into the future without the big bully BASSA hanging over everything we do.
It's a shame that BASSA didn't negotiate away some of their allowances and have them included in basic pay when they had the chance. For those that face CR a higher basic pay would, at least, have improved their redundancy payment.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bodmin, Cornshire
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another way of looking at it
Well good morning lads from a rather wet Boston. I see the rhetoric and diatribe against BASSA continues unabated from my Flight Crew colleagues.
So down to business. Unfortunately most of you are looking at the situation the wrong way round . Rather than the cosy 'sweetheart' deal that your association BALPA has cut with Mr Walsh being a lever to get the other unions to comply with his demands, you should actually be pressing Walsh to back off.
The pilots in BA have so much to lose. What else can you do but fly aeroplanes if the worst happens? You are 'one trick ponies' of the first order and Mr Walsh knows it. If the unions are weakened in BA, it will effect BALPA in the future when Mr Walsh turns on you again with those OpenSkies contracts he has got tucked away in his top drawer.
You really should be supporting BASSA and the other unions, rather than trying to undermine them. Unfortunately the pilot community has rather selfish tendencies and are reluctant to see the big picture. You think you have got off lightly, but Mr Walsh is not going to make the mistake so often made in the past, by fighting a war on two fronts. It is no more than a latter day Ribbentrop/Molotov Pact between Walsh and BALPA.
Most of you are pontificating a load of rubbish about BASSA's position and trying to second guess the mood of its membership. Wait until the meeting on the 6th July. Any move by Walsh to impose changes to T&C's without negotiation, will be viewed as an act of war.
So down to business. Unfortunately most of you are looking at the situation the wrong way round . Rather than the cosy 'sweetheart' deal that your association BALPA has cut with Mr Walsh being a lever to get the other unions to comply with his demands, you should actually be pressing Walsh to back off.
The pilots in BA have so much to lose. What else can you do but fly aeroplanes if the worst happens? You are 'one trick ponies' of the first order and Mr Walsh knows it. If the unions are weakened in BA, it will effect BALPA in the future when Mr Walsh turns on you again with those OpenSkies contracts he has got tucked away in his top drawer.
You really should be supporting BASSA and the other unions, rather than trying to undermine them. Unfortunately the pilot community has rather selfish tendencies and are reluctant to see the big picture. You think you have got off lightly, but Mr Walsh is not going to make the mistake so often made in the past, by fighting a war on two fronts. It is no more than a latter day Ribbentrop/Molotov Pact between Walsh and BALPA.
Most of you are pontificating a load of rubbish about BASSA's position and trying to second guess the mood of its membership. Wait until the meeting on the 6th July. Any move by Walsh to impose changes to T&C's without negotiation, will be viewed as an act of war.
Last edited by Stall Pusher; 20th Jun 2009 at 10:59.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wait until the meeting on the 6th July. Any move by Walsh to impose changes to T&C's without negotiation, will be viewed as an act of war.
I have really had it with crew that are extremely selfish and unfortunately can't realise, or think for themselves, that a strike will hit us really poorly and have a greater impact on all of us instead of agreeing to a change to our terms and conditions.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: uk
Age: 55
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stall pusher,i wonder why i bother to reply but........
"you are one trick ponies" YES FLIGHT DECK ARE ,something we can agree on at last ,a very finite skill set ,not very portable and very specific work . Most pilots would struggle indeed to earn anything like the same money in other industry ,some could,others (most ) could not.
Please explain how that is any different from hip surgeons or architects or currency traders. Cabin crew skill set is much more portable and quantifiable and more easily replaced .End of .
The bit about tea and coffee is sinister ,you trust the pilots with your life but make a veiled threat .What do you think pilots think of crew but chose not to express,is it just a one way street? Most are great,people are people ,the constant comparison with the pilots tiresome , familiarity breeds contempt (of the nigels )(unless you marry one,then their great!)
Whatever is said on here is irrelivant ,but you are in for a shock re -adjustment,maybe,just maybe, if we survive,BA will be a happier place to work.LGW always used to be ,ex BCAL crew and ex LGW longhaul are some of our best crew ,a lot of lovely guys and girls...,and we can at least agree that willie will be ruthless.Stop deflecting away from facts stall pusher,not everyone is against you ,give us a chance, but listen and take on alternative views sometimes...
"you are one trick ponies" YES FLIGHT DECK ARE ,something we can agree on at last ,a very finite skill set ,not very portable and very specific work . Most pilots would struggle indeed to earn anything like the same money in other industry ,some could,others (most ) could not.
Please explain how that is any different from hip surgeons or architects or currency traders. Cabin crew skill set is much more portable and quantifiable and more easily replaced .End of .
The bit about tea and coffee is sinister ,you trust the pilots with your life but make a veiled threat .What do you think pilots think of crew but chose not to express,is it just a one way street? Most are great,people are people ,the constant comparison with the pilots tiresome , familiarity breeds contempt (of the nigels )(unless you marry one,then their great!)
Whatever is said on here is irrelivant ,but you are in for a shock re -adjustment,maybe,just maybe, if we survive,BA will be a happier place to work.LGW always used to be ,ex BCAL crew and ex LGW longhaul are some of our best crew ,a lot of lovely guys and girls...,and we can at least agree that willie will be ruthless.Stop deflecting away from facts stall pusher,not everyone is against you ,give us a chance, but listen and take on alternative views sometimes...
Last edited by doishquattroserche; 20th Jun 2009 at 11:20.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: london
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SP
What? You mean the militant 10% whom are whipped into a frenzy by the BASSA Leadership, then decide everyone else's future with a show of hands.
Now where have I seen something like that before? Oh yep it was on BBC 24 last night reporting on the events unfolding in Iran.
Wait until the meeting on the 6th July
Now where have I seen something like that before? Oh yep it was on BBC 24 last night reporting on the events unfolding in Iran.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Picking up on a previous post, Cabin crew total pay is split between basic and extras/allowances etc etc, I don't know what the split is, but would guess as a population, their basic pay will be the smallest % of their total pay, can anyone quote any figures ???
Following on from the above, it will not be easy for Cabin crew to take VR with only 52 weeks pay, would it be worth allowing Cabin crew to use, say an average of their total pay over the last 2/3 years as the weekly amount (basic and allowances) and not their basic pay ???
I feel Cabin crew have been left in a very awkward position at this time, I don't see an easy way out.
1/ Basic is to low and this means small pension.
2/ Allowances/extras being used to top up savings because basic too low.
3/ Being paid well above the so called going rate, can make leaving hard.
I wish all Cabin crew well, but the numbers are not good, you are a large population getting paid well over market rate, the company is operating in hard times and cash is king, and will continue to be king for a long time.
Only option I can see, is the pilots taking a real pay cut and putting that cash up to ease the Cabin crew pay issues, remember, the pilots get the best pension deal in the long run, so could be in their best interests to do this.
Following on from the above, it will not be easy for Cabin crew to take VR with only 52 weeks pay, would it be worth allowing Cabin crew to use, say an average of their total pay over the last 2/3 years as the weekly amount (basic and allowances) and not their basic pay ???
I feel Cabin crew have been left in a very awkward position at this time, I don't see an easy way out.
1/ Basic is to low and this means small pension.
2/ Allowances/extras being used to top up savings because basic too low.
3/ Being paid well above the so called going rate, can make leaving hard.
I wish all Cabin crew well, but the numbers are not good, you are a large population getting paid well over market rate, the company is operating in hard times and cash is king, and will continue to be king for a long time.
Only option I can see, is the pilots taking a real pay cut and putting that cash up to ease the Cabin crew pay issues, remember, the pilots get the best pension deal in the long run, so could be in their best interests to do this.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woking
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New entrant basic pay is between £11,000 - £18,000.
Full time allowances would be between £1500-£2000 per month (£15000 -£20,000 per year) depending on trips.
The problem is the old contract, I don't have all the scales but a Purser with 13 years service has a basic of £35,000, CSD's go up to £45,000.
There are enough old contract left to make the VR package worthwhile for themselves and the company.
You are right that VR for new entrants is not worth much, their basic is low to account for the huge allowances, unfortunately that was the choice of the old contract crew and BASSA at the time, they protected their salaries/allowances and let the new joiners take the hit.
BA have been trying for years to get an hourly rate, BASSA always says no, I don't think it appropriate that pilots now give up money to fund cabin crew redundancies when the problem is of their own (via BASSA) making.
In fact perhaps the old contract crew themselves could take a bigger hit to help out the new contract crew? Thought not
Be careful what you believe, BASSA is talking of crew on £16,000 unable to afford meals, even on the first years payscale FULL TIME crew will earn over £20,000 unless they never turn up at work that is.
Anyway, the proposal leaves crew pay virtually untouched, it is the prospect of working harder and the thought of losing some of the well paid routes in the future that is causing the resistance.
Full time allowances would be between £1500-£2000 per month (£15000 -£20,000 per year) depending on trips.
The problem is the old contract, I don't have all the scales but a Purser with 13 years service has a basic of £35,000, CSD's go up to £45,000.
There are enough old contract left to make the VR package worthwhile for themselves and the company.
You are right that VR for new entrants is not worth much, their basic is low to account for the huge allowances, unfortunately that was the choice of the old contract crew and BASSA at the time, they protected their salaries/allowances and let the new joiners take the hit.
BA have been trying for years to get an hourly rate, BASSA always says no, I don't think it appropriate that pilots now give up money to fund cabin crew redundancies when the problem is of their own (via BASSA) making.
In fact perhaps the old contract crew themselves could take a bigger hit to help out the new contract crew? Thought not
Be careful what you believe, BASSA is talking of crew on £16,000 unable to afford meals, even on the first years payscale FULL TIME crew will earn over £20,000 unless they never turn up at work that is.
Anyway, the proposal leaves crew pay virtually untouched, it is the prospect of working harder and the thought of losing some of the well paid routes in the future that is causing the resistance.
Last edited by plodding along; 20th Jun 2009 at 12:37.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh No! I never saw the 'one trick pony' thing until now! Damn! The MBA I also have and the MCSE qualification must have been a complete waste of time as I am a 'one trick pony'.
Careful SP, you were the one who brought up the debate about getting things personal. As has already been said how does being a qualified professional pilot differ from any other profession where specific skill sets are required?
The differences between the two roles on the aircraft have been discussed long and hard and here is not the thread for it.
When one retreats to the 'I'm not, you are' stages of discussion then there generally tends to be a lack of ability to bring coherent arguments to the table. Pilots have far stricter limits and checks placed upon them which makes their training and standards far more costly to maintain. Medicals, sim checks, IR checks etc. Thus, by maintaining a pay differential the company can attract suitable, qualified pilots into the company thus reducing training/insurance costs. Something that would dry up if the T's & C's weren't maintained to a decent level. Sadly the same doesn't exist for the cabin crew.
As with the Cabin Crew many in front of the cockpit door are also multi faceted individuals who have much more up their sleeve than 'just' piloting around a jet full of your backsides. Trust me, those who were on the JNB with the un-commanded slat retraction are probably feeling very happy with their 'one trick ponies' at the moment. By all accounts they should have been in the brush at the end of the runway but for the quick action of the nags in the front.
As to your 'war', remember that war is what happens when all attempts at diplomacy fails.
Sound familiar?
Careful SP, you were the one who brought up the debate about getting things personal. As has already been said how does being a qualified professional pilot differ from any other profession where specific skill sets are required?
The differences between the two roles on the aircraft have been discussed long and hard and here is not the thread for it.
When one retreats to the 'I'm not, you are' stages of discussion then there generally tends to be a lack of ability to bring coherent arguments to the table. Pilots have far stricter limits and checks placed upon them which makes their training and standards far more costly to maintain. Medicals, sim checks, IR checks etc. Thus, by maintaining a pay differential the company can attract suitable, qualified pilots into the company thus reducing training/insurance costs. Something that would dry up if the T's & C's weren't maintained to a decent level. Sadly the same doesn't exist for the cabin crew.
As with the Cabin Crew many in front of the cockpit door are also multi faceted individuals who have much more up their sleeve than 'just' piloting around a jet full of your backsides. Trust me, those who were on the JNB with the un-commanded slat retraction are probably feeling very happy with their 'one trick ponies' at the moment. By all accounts they should have been in the brush at the end of the runway but for the quick action of the nags in the front.
As to your 'war', remember that war is what happens when all attempts at diplomacy fails.
Sound familiar?
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem is the old contract, I don't have all the scales but a Purser with 13 years service has a basic of £35,000, CSD's go up to £45,000.
Basic salary last year for main cabin crew that started in 1995 was around £29.000.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see selective deafness remains the order of the day at BASSA. Otherwise, I would have had an answer to the following from Stall Pusher. For the fourth time:
I expect this will remain unanswered along with the question of why the BASSA leadership are apparently intentionally misleading their membership.
I'm going to bow out of this debate now as my point has been well and truly made. I feel for most of the crew, I really do. I question the actions of their union "leaders" as I see no reason for their intransigence. Unfortunately, there are several of the ilk of Stall Pusher who are either too blinkered to want to see the alternatives to their argument or are too ignorant to see the train wreck which lies ahead. They have been given fair warning.
Now that we have proved that the pilots are making changes to their T&Cs, why is BASSA still denying that this is the case?
I expect this will remain unanswered along with the question of why the BASSA leadership are apparently intentionally misleading their membership.
I'm going to bow out of this debate now as my point has been well and truly made. I feel for most of the crew, I really do. I question the actions of their union "leaders" as I see no reason for their intransigence. Unfortunately, there are several of the ilk of Stall Pusher who are either too blinkered to want to see the alternatives to their argument or are too ignorant to see the train wreck which lies ahead. They have been given fair warning.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The pilots in BA have so much to lose. What else can you do but fly aeroplanes if the worst happens? You are 'one trick ponies' of the first order and Mr Walsh knows it.
If the unions are weakened in BA, it will effect BALPA in the future