BA and Project Columbus III

[Stall Pusher]

British Airways is profitable and would be in profit now if it was paying the market rate for fuel.

So how is the loan by BA pilots of £26m going to save BA? Relatively it is a drop in the ocean. I think BALPA could have given a lot more. Why should BA pilots still enjoy 1970's style restrictive practices like accomodation in a hotel before and after longhaul flights at LGW?

Crew on contracts since 1997 have not had the promotions they were promised; many are not even First Class trained. Most earn less than EasyJet cabin crew.

The reckless way Willie Walsh is leading BA will ensure lasting damage. Even if there is an agreement with BASSA one way or another, by the winter, loads wil be so low as passengers scared off by WW's pronouncements of doom and gloom desert BA for other carriers, the management of BA will be looking for more cuts.

The £26m given up (loaned) by the pilots has already been squandered ten times over, by all the negative publicity generated by Walsh.

[Human Factor]

It still doesn't explain why BASSA are insisting that the pilots haven't made any changes to their terms and conditions. Instead of bleating on here, why don't you ask Lizanne Malone and Sean Beatty why they're keeping you in the dark?

[Stall Pusher]

We are not being "kept in the dark" and are perfectly happy with the way matters are progressing.

The BA pilots have not made any changes to their T&C's. If they have, list the changes here.

[Hand Solo]

Equally if BA were paying market rate for fuel last year when oil was $150 per barrel we'd have been bankrupt. You can't have it both ways. If you hedge fuel you need to take the ups AND the downs.

Your claim that BA crew earn less than Easyjet crew is ridiculous. I've flown with plenty if ex Easy crew and they don't agree with you. The suggestion is laughable so drop it.

The £26M pilots are saving isn't going to save the company, it's a sop so that others can't say were not giving anything. If the most efficient group in the company have to contribute theres no excuse for the least efficient not to. As for 'restrictive' practices, do you know what the LGW hotac budget is, and how much it saves over having LGW based 777 pilots? The whole cost is less than a single disruption caused by crew having 2 local nights after a diversion.

[Human Factor]

We are not being "kept in the dark" and are perfectly happy with the way matters are progressing.

The BA pilots have not made any changes to their T&C's. If they have, list the changes here.

Are you sure, Stall Pusher?

LGW

1. Introduce days off shaping

Short Haul

1. Minimum SH turn time 75 minutes plus buffers (5 min earlier report, 5 day trip maximum, removal of 75 minute limit for meals on fixed links & no CES rules).
2. Increase annual shorthaul cap by 12 hours

Long Haul

1. Increase annual longhaul cap by 8 hours
2. Extend Box C by 30 minutes

Other

1. Reduce BALPA credit.

"Cap" refers to how the pilot's hours are calculated. In Shorthaul, 12 hours CAP equates to roughly four days work and in longhaul, 8 hours corresponds to around 3 days work. It does not mean we only work three or four hours a day. It is a mathematical calculation. "Box C" refers to the flight time requiring three flightcrew. There will be fewer flights with four flightcrew. The above list is neither detailed nor exhaustive and is over and above the pay cuts. Ask Lizanne and Sean for the juicy bits. They should find it on page 2 of their document.

Now to reiterate, instead of bleating on here, why don't you ask Lizanne Malone and Sean Beatty why they're keeping you in the dark?

[Stall Pusher]

Wobble, where the chair person of BASSA lives for part of the year is no one's business.

It seems that you have given up some petty 1970's style restrictive practices and payments. Good for you! I am sure BASSA and its membership will be content to make a corresponding level of sacrifice or loan, as your 'work association' BALPA, has for you.

[Human Factor]

I am sure BASSA and its membership will be content to make a corresponding level of sacrifice or loan....

They probably will. Unfortunately, it will be all in one go.

[wobble2plank]

It seems that you have given up some petty 1970's style restrictive practices and payments. Good for you! I am sure BASSA and its membership will be content to make a corresponding level of sacrifice or loan, as your 'work association' BALPA, has for you.

Fantastic, you have finally grasped the nettle in this thread. Yes, we have given up some petty 1970's style restrictive practices, that the Cabin Crew STILL ENJOY IN 2009.

The whole crux of this thread is that the company wish to bring those practices for the CC to an end. In the past it has always been too difficult, now however the business conditions make it a necessity.

[Da Dog]

You also forgot the removal of the heavy Captain on HKG and GRU, not to be filled by a Co Pilot, thus making these trips 3 man, I only mention this because it is always used by Cabin Crew and BASSA to pick us apart.

[Re-Heat]

Fuel costs - if not hedged, the cost over the year would still have remained the same. See the following:

Slide 33 - http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...R5cGU9Mw==&t=1


Walsh's comments on BASSA negotiations in IR transcript (p12):

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...R5cGU9Mw==&t=1

Today we are going out offering unpaid leave to all employees in the business. We're offering temporary and permanent
part-time to all of our major groups. And we're also focusing on our supplier spend. And I'll go into these in a little bit more
detail now.

We have, in the main, five main negotiating groups. The first is our GSS, Ground Service Staff. But it also includes cargo operation and Gatwick. We have concluded negotiations with that group. And we signed an MoU that is currently being balloted on. The ballot should finish early next week. And that is a fundamental change in the working conditions in the agreements we have with those groups.

With our Engineering section we've also reached agreement on a -- and signed an MoU that will be balloted on starting next week. Our engineering trade unions are recommending acceptance of that. It's a fundamental change again from the agreements that we've had in place. We've had good progress in our discussions with pilots. And they have indicated that they intend to ballot soon on changes that are proposed.

Progress in the other two areas has been slower with our administrative staff, and in the main our customer-facing staff in the terminals. We are making some progress, but it is slow. And we've injected some urgency into those discussions over the last few days. And regrettably the one area that is lagging behind the other groups is with cabin crew representatives. Now there is a difference in attitude and approach being adopted by the official trade union versus the, if you like, the officials, the paid trade union officials and our elected representatives. The official line is that this is a temporary issue and should be solved by temporary change.

I'm pleased to say that the vast majority of our people recognize that temporary change and temporary solutions are not enough, and have faced up to structural change, and permanent change to address the nature of the challenge that we see at the moment.

So I am confident that through negotiation we will be able to agree acceptable terms to transform the way we operate at British Airways. But there is significant discretion available to management in terms of implementing change. And clearly we will not hesitate to implement change where we believe it is necessary, not just for the survival of the business in the short term, but to ensure that the business is well positioned for long-term benefit.

[Stall Pusher]

At the end of the day, the pilots in BA have got away with murder. It was a "sweetheart" deal.

Walsh wanted to get the pilots out of the way quickly to put pressure on the other employee groups. The same deal is not being offered.

Currently Cranebank is bursting with temporary cabin crew, some called back on three month contracts. Why? Is Mr Walsh so certain that there shortly will be a dispute because he is going to engineer it? Surely jaw jaw is better than war war?

Some full time crew have had their SEP checks brought forward from September to July, 'because Cranebank will be full of new recruits in September'.

Mr Walsh is set on breaking the unions in BA, it is nothing to do with saving money. If there is a strike, it will be down to him and his intransigence

[L337]

Stall Pusher, just because you keep saying the same things over and over again, does not make it any more truthful.

[Re-Heat]

Surely jaw jaw is better than war war?

Sorry, are you confusing BASSA with a union that negotiates?

Walsh wanted to get the pilots out of the way quickly to put pressure on the other employee groups. The same deal is not being offered.

Again, the starting point of negotiations is not the same as the final outcome. You have to go down the road of negotiating to get to a deal you can agree upon. Clearly, BASSA is incapable of doing so.

Currently Cranebank is bursting with temporary cabin crew, some called back on three month contracts. Why?

Since, in all likelihood, crew will be laid off en masse for failing to come to a negotiated settlement.

[L337]

Stall Pusher, you said:

The BA pilots have not made any changes to their T&C's. If they have, list the changes here.

Here is a cut and paste of an email sent to all BA pilots. Dated 10th June 2009.

From 1 October 2009
• Pilot basic salary scales: Reduced by 2.61%.
• Flying Pay: reduced by £2 from £11.00 to £9.00.
• Time Away From Base allowance (TAFB)*: Frozen at current rate (£2.87 per hour) from 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2011.
• Next salary review date: 1 February 2011.

LGW

1. Introduce days off shaping

Short Haul

1. Minimum SH turn time 75 minutes plus buffers (5 min earlier report, 5 day trip maximum, removal of 75 minute limit for meals on fixed links & no CES rules).
2. Increase annual shorthaul cap by 12 hours

Long Haul

1. Increase annual longhaul cap by 8 hours
2. Extend Box C by 30 minutes

Other

1. Reduce BALPA credit.

I will be working longer hours for less money. That is the simple truth, and for you to bang on that "BA pilots have not made any changes to their T&C's" is just utter rubbish.

[Human Factor]

... for you to bang on that "BA pilots have not made any changes to their T&C's" is just utter rubbish.

Which brings us back to the original issue. Now that we have proved that the pilots are making changes to their T&Cs, why is BASSA still denying that this is the case?

Stall Pusher? Anyone?

[Matt101]

Does he not understand those crew earning £16,000pa - a fraction of Mr Walsh’s monthly salary - live month to month often struggling to make ends meet and in some cases going without meals?

I am loathed to get involved but I was on the lowest paid wage at BA (Cabin Crew wise) and I earned more than this per year. This pay may well apply to a part time wage but then it is part time - if you are struggling to survive then perhaps you shouldn't be on such a contract, other than that this sentence is purely BASSA drum beating.

Stall Pusher your comments are generally lifted directly from BASSA literature - why not try thinking for yourself?

Yes Pilot pay increments will be retained but it seems amazing to me that BASSA is peddling this as if pilots will still be better off after their pay cut.

A bit of basic maths for you BASSA if you have £100 paid per month and the company take away £50 permanently and then give you £100 permanently you have in effect received a pay rise of £50 as opposed to the £100 you were expecting. You are still worse off (markedly so over a long period of time). Add to that the decrease in flight pay and increase in productivity and you can see why this was an acceptable deal to WW.

I do not want to see CC T&C's decimated many of my friends and colleagues are still there, as they are in Flight Opps and other departments, however this BASSA ranting used to annoy me when I was a member and still annoys me now, I had thought the last elections at BASSA would have unveiled a breath of fresh air - not so unfortunately. Thankfully most Cabin Crew are intelligent well informed people and will, I hope, see the truth past all the gash. Changes can be made that wont hurt the pocket too much.

Best of luck to all involved, I sincerely mean that, a great airline with a great bunch of people I was proud to "fly the flag" and hope to again one day - hence my interest.

[Stall Pusher]

The main reason why Bob Ayling had to leave BA, was that he lost the confidence of the workforce. On his watch the airline's debt soared. After BA he was virtually unemployable. Anyone recognise the analogy?

Mr Walsh has a confrontational style that will ensure industrial action is a reality. If you want to get your workforce onside, to work together altruistically, you do not adopt the posture Walsh has with deadlines and threats of imposition. Especially as the company would be in better shape and better regarded, if not for mistakes he has made. Would anyone fail to agree with me, that BA has suffered a loss of prestige since he became CEO?

The fact that he operates in this way also demontrates that he is not in BA for the longhaul, but just a smash and grab of long serving employees T&C's. Then he will be off.

If he can unashamedly sack two directors over T5, then everyone is at risk who gets in his way. Personally I do not like bullies. As Margaret Thatcher once said: "Bullies must be beaten" (sic)

[wobble2plank]

Stall Pusher.

You present an enticing argument albeit at the wrong time. Whilst Bob Ayling will always be less than fondly remembered he did not have the economic disasters that the current Government has led us into to contend with.

The soaring amount of personal debt coupled with the massive Government borrowing is going to kill off or level any hope of economic recovery for the considerable future. To put it into context the Civil service has ballooned to in excess of 6.6 million under New Labour, that puts it at over a quarter of the workforce. Given that the private pensions debate will mark the next huge hurdle in the company the civil service pension mountain will need to be service by the tax payer for ever.

Taking all of this into account the disposable income that many have been enjoying for the past decade is gone. Possibly never to return in such amounts as we have seen. Personal and private credit will be far more difficult to obtain and the luxuries of travel will diminish with them.

The company MUST re-adjust to the new order and re position itself to take advantage of whatever up turn comes. The margins involved however will be far smaller.

Whilst many people don't like Willie Walsh he does have the backing of both the City and the Board on this one under a promise to return profitability to the investors. He will force through the changes to achieve this.

[Witraz]

Stall Pusher.
Your solution then is get rid of WW and everything will be a bed of roses.
The losses will disappear overnight. The plan to lay up 16 aircraft for the coming winter will be dropped and most importantly those nasty fare paying passengers who have stayed away will return paying the old rates for their FC and Club seats that pay the wages.......
Sorry but somehow I don't think this will happen.

[GS-Alpha]

deltaguy,

No need to bang your head against the wall. I am well aware that the action in my link was unofficial and therefore illegal. The warning was that if you are going to strike, make sure it is legal, or you will likely be sacked.

Unfortunately for you guys though, Willie will not leave you the option of a legal strike. This is the whole point I am making. Your union is backing Willie into a corner. He has no option but to escape from it, and the only way he can, will be to give you a bloody nose. Unfortunately, I am 99% certain he will not leave it there. If you dare to push him, he will break your arms and legs too. This is why I urge you all, to urge BASSA to start negotiating properly.

So many crew are telling me that Willie will regret having a go at the cabin crew, but I am quite sure the reality will be the other way around when the battle is over. I promise not to tell you "I told you so" though.