BA and Project Columbus III
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My thoughts exactly Gg
While I DO see it as a drastic step, it is also very clear that it is entirely voluntary and sits alongside the other BRP options. For those unable to consider PT or VUL, but who do wish to do something, as allowances will still be paid, it's another (slightly less painful) option to at least consider.
Just to quickly remind people:
1) it's voluntary
2) can be 1 to 4 weeks
3) only basic salary is affected, allowances etc ARE paid
4) deduction can be spread over 3 or 6 months
While I DO see it as a drastic step, it is also very clear that it is entirely voluntary and sits alongside the other BRP options. For those unable to consider PT or VUL, but who do wish to do something, as allowances will still be paid, it's another (slightly less painful) option to at least consider.
Just to quickly remind people:
1) it's voluntary
2) can be 1 to 4 weeks
3) only basic salary is affected, allowances etc ARE paid
4) deduction can be spread over 3 or 6 months
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It's amazing where people get all this incorrect information from about working for free being illegal due to the minimum wage act.
It is NOT illegal to work for no pay providing it is totally voluntary.
People work free for charities and they are not acting illegally nor is the charity in accepting their offers to work for no pay.
The minimum wage act only applies to paid work.
Anyone has the right to work for no pay if they choose to.
It is NOT illegal to work for no pay providing it is totally voluntary.
People work free for charities and they are not acting illegally nor is the charity in accepting their offers to work for no pay.
The minimum wage act only applies to paid work.
Anyone has the right to work for no pay if they choose to.
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Bassa Supporter
Just to remind people:
1. It is not charity work
2. It is illegal under the 1998 Minimum Wage Act
Jean Lil. The Employment Minister today said it was illegal. Do you disagree? Is she wrong?
1. It is not charity work
2. It is illegal under the 1998 Minimum Wage Act
Jean Lil. The Employment Minister today said it was illegal. Do you disagree? Is she wrong?
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as allowances are paid as 'subsistence allowances'. You are not meant to save them. It is like giving a charity worker free food.
Your theory would apply more if our allowances were paid to us directly at the time each one was triggered.
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Pib
Not to doubt you, but I've been trying to find the EMs statement on the www, but can't see anything anywhere I have looked. Do you have a link for anything that's been reported, as would like to hear her exact words.
thanks
The Employment Minister today said it was illegal.
thanks
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PiB #861
"Regarding RyanAir, at least the are parking aircraft in anticipation of a downturn. This move by them shows that they will go out of business as well if there are no passengers."
I assume you meant "upturn" not "downturn" in your post?
In respect of Ryanair going out of business as well, I actually think you misunderstand the dynamics here. Ryanair has more cash/near-cash than any other airline in Europe. They can withstand a downturn longer than anyone, they can cut fares more and for longer than anyone. The latter has been their strategy in recent years. They learned it in their formative years from Aer Lingus actually, who did pretty much the same to them when they were small and Aer Lingus had a near-100% share of the lucrative London-Dublin route.
Anyway, the point is this. Ryanair will mothball their fleet to preserve cash just like anyone else. However, at some point weaker airlines will go broke, as has already happened to a couple of the charters and all those "business class only" shops that collapsed last year. As the weakest die, so the stronger players (of which Ryanair is now the proverbial 800# gorilla) pick up the routes/passengers. The total market may be smaller, but they have a bigger share.
The problem BA has is that it will go under well before Ryanair. Ryanair will be the last one standing. For it to fail, or even shrink in size, ALL air travel will have to cease, and we're nowhere near that happening. The weakest link in this is probably Aer Lingus, which started with less cash than most and is burning it fastest. Net-net that's good for Ryanair, even though it would hit the value of their shareholding in Aer Lingus.
BA is not in a strong cash position either. I'm not of the "BA will disappear" brigade. Its routes and LHR slots are worth a fortune long-term. However, BA could be so badly weakened that it has to seek further defensive mergers on unattractive terms (are you going to be rebranded as Iberia soon?), or is actually the subject of a hostile bid from an aggressive new airline keen to increase its route network (ring any bells?). Both those options are likely to be worse for BA staff than anything proposed by a currently independent BA right now.
I assume you meant "upturn" not "downturn" in your post?
In respect of Ryanair going out of business as well, I actually think you misunderstand the dynamics here. Ryanair has more cash/near-cash than any other airline in Europe. They can withstand a downturn longer than anyone, they can cut fares more and for longer than anyone. The latter has been their strategy in recent years. They learned it in their formative years from Aer Lingus actually, who did pretty much the same to them when they were small and Aer Lingus had a near-100% share of the lucrative London-Dublin route.
Anyway, the point is this. Ryanair will mothball their fleet to preserve cash just like anyone else. However, at some point weaker airlines will go broke, as has already happened to a couple of the charters and all those "business class only" shops that collapsed last year. As the weakest die, so the stronger players (of which Ryanair is now the proverbial 800# gorilla) pick up the routes/passengers. The total market may be smaller, but they have a bigger share.
The problem BA has is that it will go under well before Ryanair. Ryanair will be the last one standing. For it to fail, or even shrink in size, ALL air travel will have to cease, and we're nowhere near that happening. The weakest link in this is probably Aer Lingus, which started with less cash than most and is burning it fastest. Net-net that's good for Ryanair, even though it would hit the value of their shareholding in Aer Lingus.
BA is not in a strong cash position either. I'm not of the "BA will disappear" brigade. Its routes and LHR slots are worth a fortune long-term. However, BA could be so badly weakened that it has to seek further defensive mergers on unattractive terms (are you going to be rebranded as Iberia soon?), or is actually the subject of a hostile bid from an aggressive new airline keen to increase its route network (ring any bells?). Both those options are likely to be worse for BA staff than anything proposed by a currently independent BA right now.
Junior trash
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2. It is illegal under the 1998 Minimum Wage Act
Now back to the actual topic please.
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PiB
I have never read such misinformed information written with such authority. You're not in management are you?
Ministers do not judge the law. The law courts do that. Anything said by ministers is irrelevant in determining legal outcomes except intent expressed when forumulating the original laws. In simple terms, working for free is not legal if it is always for free under the period of contract. She is not wrong, but she has no idea of the structure, and as such is irrelevant in judging BA's offer.
You display a rigid and uneducated view of the law - as HM states above, structuring through a spread of wages is possible, and furthermore the legal minimum would apply only to the period of your contract. Taking any tax year as an example, remuneration still considerably exceeds minimum wages.
Ryanair operate with many FOs who receive expenses for "training", and little in the way of salary above minimum wage.
Perhaps if BA structures it as "retraining", they could get away with paying those crew with no customer services skills for periods in excess of a year...no there's a thought...!
PiB - you don't win the argument if you shout louder...
Nuigini offered what was quite clearly an opinion. If you can't understand his/her statement as such, that is not their problem.
I have never read such misinformed information written with such authority. You're not in management are you?
You cannot volunteer to work for free alongside colleagues who are being paid. Just to remind you before this discussion goes on, Yvette Cooper is a Minister. She does not make mistakes.
You display a rigid and uneducated view of the law - as HM states above, structuring through a spread of wages is possible, and furthermore the legal minimum would apply only to the period of your contract. Taking any tax year as an example, remuneration still considerably exceeds minimum wages.
Ryanair operate with many FOs who receive expenses for "training", and little in the way of salary above minimum wage.
Perhaps if BA structures it as "retraining", they could get away with paying those crew with no customer services skills for periods in excess of a year...no there's a thought...!
PiB - you don't win the argument if you shout louder...
Nuigini offered what was quite clearly an opinion. If you can't understand his/her statement as such, that is not their problem.
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Sorry to keep on this unpaid work side track...
What about work experience and internship? Is that illegal too?
I'm pretty sure that the BA legal team would have double checked the legalities of this whole thing.
The same goes for potential ballot from Bassa. What will they ballot for? New Fleet? No can do. It's legal to set it up, so union members can't legally strike over that issue. No change of contract has been mentioned, whence the union will find it very difficult to find something to ballot for.
I'm sure the legal team is working overtime (no doubt paid overtime..) at the moment to make sure management has the upper hand and an answer to everything. Contingency plans are being put into action as we speak, just in case someone in the union decides that a strike is a good thing, or a wild cat/walk out/everyone sick day happens.
Gg
What about work experience and internship? Is that illegal too?
I'm pretty sure that the BA legal team would have double checked the legalities of this whole thing.
The same goes for potential ballot from Bassa. What will they ballot for? New Fleet? No can do. It's legal to set it up, so union members can't legally strike over that issue. No change of contract has been mentioned, whence the union will find it very difficult to find something to ballot for.
I'm sure the legal team is working overtime (no doubt paid overtime..) at the moment to make sure management has the upper hand and an answer to everything. Contingency plans are being put into action as we speak, just in case someone in the union decides that a strike is a good thing, or a wild cat/walk out/everyone sick day happens.
Gg
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I'm pretty sure that the BA legal team would have double checked the legalities of this whole thing.
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I love the way Poof in Boots is quoting the Employment Minister, but is listed as being in the US.
Do you have any idea just how much a joke our Government is right now and how many lies they've been discovered telling?
Do you have any idea just how much a joke our Government is right now and how many lies they've been discovered telling?
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Question For Bassa Supporters
With unemployment at a 12 year high (source BBC Radio 4. 1038pm), when will BASSA release factual information on BA's finances that it has been given access to so that members have that information?
Why have the Reps not attended all the negotiation sessions with the company?
Why have the Reps not attended all the negotiation sessions with the company?
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Bassa Supporter
Andy, why do you need the information from BASSA, Willie Walsh has told the world!! Don't you believe Willie when he says how bad things are?
The reps have attended all of the meetings. Where are you getting your misinformation from Andy?
Cellstar, the "Head" of BASSA is a woman, married to an American, hence the LA connection.
Re-Heat. Working for free is such a stupid idea, even Michael O'Leary didn't think of it!! He must be kicking himself now. MOL makes his staff pay for their training and uniforms, why not make them work for free as well!
The reps have attended all of the meetings. Where are you getting your misinformation from Andy?
Cellstar, the "Head" of BASSA is a woman, married to an American, hence the LA connection.
Re-Heat. Working for free is such a stupid idea, even Michael O'Leary didn't think of it!! He must be kicking himself now. MOL makes his staff pay for their training and uniforms, why not make them work for free as well!
Last edited by Poof in Boots; 17th Jun 2009 at 22:44.
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Taking a look at the fixed term contract as CC that I had, my basic was an anual pay £12.000 (ish) pro rata.. so any request would just lower the (PR) pay and there for not working for free... just a reduced wage in a financial year and all other benefits in place! I think if crew were on hourly rate then things would be much more complex.. just a thought
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P in Boots
To answer your question about the employment minister and voluntary work, it is unbelieveable the minster would say such voluntary work is illegal-for what reasons?
1000's of people work voluntarily for no pay because they do not want any pay, why have non of them been prosecuted for doing so illegally? Ask the employment minister that question. Additionally ask why none of the charities or hospitals have been prosecuted for accepting voluntary work.
I will repeat myself for your benefit, 1000's of people work for no pay in charities and hospitals, including my medic husband who does several hours a week medical research work completely without pay or expences-because he is dedicated in his profession.
Hospitals and charities have many people who are willing to work voluntarily, it is a well known fact and perfectly legal otherwise it would not be allowed to happen.
It has been in the media this week that BA are considering accepting VOLUNTARY work as a method to survive. BA's legal advisers would have not allowed this to happen if it was in any way illegal.
To answer your question about the employment minister and voluntary work, it is unbelieveable the minster would say such voluntary work is illegal-for what reasons?
1000's of people work voluntarily for no pay because they do not want any pay, why have non of them been prosecuted for doing so illegally? Ask the employment minister that question. Additionally ask why none of the charities or hospitals have been prosecuted for accepting voluntary work.
I will repeat myself for your benefit, 1000's of people work for no pay in charities and hospitals, including my medic husband who does several hours a week medical research work completely without pay or expences-because he is dedicated in his profession.
Hospitals and charities have many people who are willing to work voluntarily, it is a well known fact and perfectly legal otherwise it would not be allowed to happen.
It has been in the media this week that BA are considering accepting VOLUNTARY work as a method to survive. BA's legal advisers would have not allowed this to happen if it was in any way illegal.
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Poof in Boots, I would like BASSA to admit that it has been given access to the figures and give suitable honest information to it's members.
Several of your colleagues have posted here that nothing is wrong, that Willie is making it all up etc.
A union is meant to protect it's members, not protect them from the truth.
Several of your colleagues have posted here that nothing is wrong, that Willie is making it all up etc.
A union is meant to protect it's members, not protect them from the truth.
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Generally best to ignore PiB's claims, it's a classic BASSA diversion tactic. When they can't win the debate they prefer to focus on one tiny aspect of the dispute and hammer home their point in the hope nobody will recognize the paucity of their arguments. Once BA start laying off cabin crew do you think anyone will be bothered whether or not working for free is legal?
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Originally Posted by Financial Times
In a speech in the French capital to the Financial Times/Moët Hennessy Business Club, Mr Walsh said BA had planned “on the assumption of a 24-month downturn, and we have seen nothing yet to persuade us we are over-pessimistic”.
The flag carrier, one of the big three European airlines, is facing a second consecutive year of losses. In a breakthrough in its efforts to cut costs, it emerged that its pilots are to be balloted on a package of pay cuts and productivity improvements tied to a long-term share incentive scheme. There would also be up to 78 voluntary redundancies.
Mr Walsh said the trading environment was “the harshest this industry has ever faced”.
More airlines would go out of business, especially as the oil price was rising again.
He said: “Though some of the financial markets may be looking better, I believe that for airlines, the worst of this recession is still ahead of us.”
A “structural shift” was occurring, said Mr Walsh and he warned demand for business travel, traditionally the main engine for profits at long-haul network carriers, might never fully recover.
“It may be that demand in the highest-yielding, fully-flexible premium business market will never recover to the levels we were seeing in 2007.
“That is a sobering message for all traditional airlines. Premium travel has been central to the viability of their business model for a very long time,” he said.
BA’s premium traffic fell by 17 per cent year-on-year in May and Mr Walsh said some of its biggest corporate customers were “changing their behaviour as consumers”.
The flag carrier, one of the big three European airlines, is facing a second consecutive year of losses. In a breakthrough in its efforts to cut costs, it emerged that its pilots are to be balloted on a package of pay cuts and productivity improvements tied to a long-term share incentive scheme. There would also be up to 78 voluntary redundancies.
Mr Walsh said the trading environment was “the harshest this industry has ever faced”.
More airlines would go out of business, especially as the oil price was rising again.
He said: “Though some of the financial markets may be looking better, I believe that for airlines, the worst of this recession is still ahead of us.”
A “structural shift” was occurring, said Mr Walsh and he warned demand for business travel, traditionally the main engine for profits at long-haul network carriers, might never fully recover.
“It may be that demand in the highest-yielding, fully-flexible premium business market will never recover to the levels we were seeing in 2007.
“That is a sobering message for all traditional airlines. Premium travel has been central to the viability of their business model for a very long time,” he said.
BA’s premium traffic fell by 17 per cent year-on-year in May and Mr Walsh said some of its biggest corporate customers were “changing their behaviour as consumers”.