BA and Project Columbus III
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Stall Pusher, thanks for contributing.
Can you confirm that BASSA has had access to the same independent financial figures that BALPA has has access to, but has chosen not to share that advice with us members?
Could you explain why the noticeboard in T5 has the Times article saying Willie has got a pay rise, but not the article saying he is not taking the payrise?
The thing I find most frightening is that BASSA seem unable to comprehend that the world is in a recession/depression.
Can you confirm that BASSA has had access to the same independent financial figures that BALPA has has access to, but has chosen not to share that advice with us members?
Could you explain why the noticeboard in T5 has the Times article saying Willie has got a pay rise, but not the article saying he is not taking the payrise?
The thing I find most frightening is that BASSA seem unable to comprehend that the world is in a recession/depression.
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Having been CC with BA for 30 years now and never really been union minded, I now can't wait for the ballot paper to drop on my mat to vote for strike.........and you will see me on the front line supporting my 14,000 colleagues (30,000 if the whole of Unite come out)!
If you think the rest of the company is going to support you, sorry you're very sadly mistaken. And you'll find out just how unpopular you are if you take this action to destroy the lives of all our colleagues.
Last edited by FloridaCandle; 14th Jun 2009 at 21:53.
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Stall Pusher,
You are totally correct. A union should stand up for it's members. But, it seems that BASSA are only willing to stand up for the members that tow the line. They aren't interested in any member that doesn't agree with their stance and heaven help anyone that dares to question them and their ideals! That's not what a union is for.
You are also right that T&C's were on the agenda long before the recession. The difference now is that management can no longer afford to bury their heads in the sand at the first sign of resistance. There is no choice. Things have to change. If you think the figures have been made up or exaggerated, then you are sadly deluded.
This is not going to go away and the only chance for us is compromise and I mean real compromise. None of this "temporary solution" stuff either. Who would want to invest in a company that could be in exactly the same situation in one, two, possibly three years time? Yes the recession will eventually end, but who knows how the industry will look at the other end.
You are totally correct. A union should stand up for it's members. But, it seems that BASSA are only willing to stand up for the members that tow the line. They aren't interested in any member that doesn't agree with their stance and heaven help anyone that dares to question them and their ideals! That's not what a union is for.
You are also right that T&C's were on the agenda long before the recession. The difference now is that management can no longer afford to bury their heads in the sand at the first sign of resistance. There is no choice. Things have to change. If you think the figures have been made up or exaggerated, then you are sadly deluded.
This is not going to go away and the only chance for us is compromise and I mean real compromise. None of this "temporary solution" stuff either. Who would want to invest in a company that could be in exactly the same situation in one, two, possibly three years time? Yes the recession will eventually end, but who knows how the industry will look at the other end.
Last edited by jetset lady; 14th Jun 2009 at 21:37.
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The BALPA deal ?
Let me take a wild guess from reading todays Mail on Sunday.
1/Pilots pay point 24 scale/increments will be slowed down a little and this will save cash in the short term.
2/Pilots will still be able to get to that great 24 scale/increment due NRD now 65 instead of 55.
3/Pilots taking VS will get good T+C's, just like all the managers who took the deal before xmas 2008, other staff will be be getting IVS with legal min T+C's.
4/Pilots continue to get that magic 17.5% increase in their Pen Pay being funded by the company/other staff.
5/Pilots still maintain their present deal inside pensions, as paying least in and getting most out.
May be a few other items like a smaller cheeseboard etc etc etc.
Appears BALPA have done their members a great service, just like they did when the pension changes were about in 2007.
Let me take a wild guess from reading todays Mail on Sunday.
1/Pilots pay point 24 scale/increments will be slowed down a little and this will save cash in the short term.
2/Pilots will still be able to get to that great 24 scale/increment due NRD now 65 instead of 55.
3/Pilots taking VS will get good T+C's, just like all the managers who took the deal before xmas 2008, other staff will be be getting IVS with legal min T+C's.
4/Pilots continue to get that magic 17.5% increase in their Pen Pay being funded by the company/other staff.
5/Pilots still maintain their present deal inside pensions, as paying least in and getting most out.
May be a few other items like a smaller cheeseboard etc etc etc.
Appears BALPA have done their members a great service, just like they did when the pension changes were about in 2007.
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There is more to running a business than profit, profit and profit. Other EU governments recognise this whether it is cars, house building or running an airline. The middle classes are the engine of the economy. If there is a race to the bottom on T&C's just to maximise profitability, who will be able to afford to buy a new car, update the washing machine or buy your own place.
That is why the European economies and a nepotistic, rotten collection of dated economies, lacking the dynamism of the Asian and South American countries who are in the process of overtaking them.
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Joetom
Sorry but if you get your view of the world from the MoS then you will not be keeping up with the facts.
Anyway i thought this thread was about cabin crew terms, not pilots?
Sorry but if you get your view of the world from the MoS then you will not be keeping up with the facts.
Anyway i thought this thread was about cabin crew terms, not pilots?
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Joetom,
That's a lot of supposition from one very limited MoS article. Here's a thought, why not put the hysteria to one side and let's all see what today brings us when BALPA release the actual details of what's being proposed.
As for BASSA, well, words fail me, they don't represent the views of the membership, they try to impose their view on the membership. I love, in a perverse, depressing way, that many of our crew believe this is nothing more than an elaborate ruse to get them to change their terms and conditions. If WW is as blunt and aggressive as you claim him to be, why would he try and go through such a convoluted way of achieving this unless, and this is the non-BASSA bit, we maybe, just maybe, are neck deep in the poo and sinking fast.
Crew, as with all staff groups, need strong representation in a large company like BA, but the BASSA way is just not compatible with the modern world.
One final thought, as we know, the company can serve notice on all contracts of employment, and in such trading conditions the courts would, in all likelihood, come down on the side of the company. Of course, you could strike but were I a betting man, I'd imagine your 2000 headcount reduction would come from a large number of sackings. Of course, a tribunal might rule those illegal but as the law doesn't require the airline to re-hire those who were sacked in those circumstances, and the compensation is capped (I believe £30K) then it'd cost BA £60 million to achieve a permanent headcount reduction of 2000. And I'd guess that the composition of those 2000 might just be from the older contracts. Not saying it will happen but, it's a possibility.
I'm not sure why BASSA haven't had access to the books in the same way BALPA has but I'd guess that it's probably because the level of trust that exists between BA and BALPA simply isn't there with BASSA and the information involved is deeply commercially sensitive. As to why that trust isn't there, well, I'd argue that's a whole new thread in its' own right with errors on both sides.
Oh and one last thing, if we're going to have a debate, can we do just that and not simply come on gainsaying the alternative point of view without facts because it's not moving this on anywhere.
Flame away, warriors.
That's a lot of supposition from one very limited MoS article. Here's a thought, why not put the hysteria to one side and let's all see what today brings us when BALPA release the actual details of what's being proposed.
As for BASSA, well, words fail me, they don't represent the views of the membership, they try to impose their view on the membership. I love, in a perverse, depressing way, that many of our crew believe this is nothing more than an elaborate ruse to get them to change their terms and conditions. If WW is as blunt and aggressive as you claim him to be, why would he try and go through such a convoluted way of achieving this unless, and this is the non-BASSA bit, we maybe, just maybe, are neck deep in the poo and sinking fast.
Crew, as with all staff groups, need strong representation in a large company like BA, but the BASSA way is just not compatible with the modern world.
One final thought, as we know, the company can serve notice on all contracts of employment, and in such trading conditions the courts would, in all likelihood, come down on the side of the company. Of course, you could strike but were I a betting man, I'd imagine your 2000 headcount reduction would come from a large number of sackings. Of course, a tribunal might rule those illegal but as the law doesn't require the airline to re-hire those who were sacked in those circumstances, and the compensation is capped (I believe £30K) then it'd cost BA £60 million to achieve a permanent headcount reduction of 2000. And I'd guess that the composition of those 2000 might just be from the older contracts. Not saying it will happen but, it's a possibility.
I'm not sure why BASSA haven't had access to the books in the same way BALPA has but I'd guess that it's probably because the level of trust that exists between BA and BALPA simply isn't there with BASSA and the information involved is deeply commercially sensitive. As to why that trust isn't there, well, I'd argue that's a whole new thread in its' own right with errors on both sides.
Oh and one last thing, if we're going to have a debate, can we do just that and not simply come on gainsaying the alternative point of view without facts because it's not moving this on anywhere.
Flame away, warriors.
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Joetom,
This made me chuckle. As the thorny subject of Voluntary Redundancy has been on the cards for some considerable time with respect to the top 500 seniority pilots the T's and C's associated have been set for the same period.
There was, indeed, a caveat attached to the application of VR which quite clearly stated that the conditions of VR were set and, if not taken, would never be as good again. You pays your money and takes your choice. You are complaining in a similar vein to someone who bought a television last year and then found it half price the next. Time is the motivator in this one.
Where did this little gem pop up from? This is about CC productivity but yet again we get mired into a 'but he's got more than I've got' playground argument. This has been explained many times before. Suffice to say that those who contribute less get less, simple truth rules of pension fund accumulation.
Hopefully the adult lead taken by BALPA will either galvanise BASSA into trying to achieve something similar for its membership or push them to the negotiating table to at least try and salvage some scraps from the mess they are in. The next week should be very interesting indeed.
Pinkaroo, I am deeply touched that you are so concerned over my personal position in this whole sorry mess. However, it is just that, my personal position, so stop digging.
3/Pilots taking VS will get good T+C's, just like all the managers who took the deal before xmas 2008, other staff will be be getting IVS with legal min T+C's.
There was, indeed, a caveat attached to the application of VR which quite clearly stated that the conditions of VR were set and, if not taken, would never be as good again. You pays your money and takes your choice. You are complaining in a similar vein to someone who bought a television last year and then found it half price the next. Time is the motivator in this one.
Pilots still maintain their present deal inside pensions, as paying least in and getting most out.
Hopefully the adult lead taken by BALPA will either galvanise BASSA into trying to achieve something similar for its membership or push them to the negotiating table to at least try and salvage some scraps from the mess they are in. The next week should be very interesting indeed.
Pinkaroo, I am deeply touched that you are so concerned over my personal position in this whole sorry mess. However, it is just that, my personal position, so stop digging.
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Andy
My sympathies mate. I dont visit the BASSA forum anymore as a result of the one sided rhetoric and 'bullying' that goes on there.
I wish the union that sadly I am still a member of, would provide honest answers and honest information.
The world economy is in the poo. The country is in the poo. The airline is in deep poo. Only BASSA refuses to release information to its members.
I agree with the questions you have, "Why does the BASSA noticeboard in T5 have clippings about Willie Walsh's payrise, but not anything about his refusal to accept it"?
Has BASSA had access to the companies figures? If they have, why wont they release the information to the members? Why wont they deal honestly with their members?
It will be a huge turnaround and a monumental change of tack, but surely BASSA needs to negotiate the change, not have it driven through under SOSR. Lets face it the allowances system depicted above is a bit if a joke nowadays. But then again, peraps BASSA is as well.
Its not a talent or popularity contest, this isnt Big Brother or Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, this is events which are affecting real peoples lives.
Real people will lose jobs and homes.
My sympathies mate. I dont visit the BASSA forum anymore as a result of the one sided rhetoric and 'bullying' that goes on there.
I wish the union that sadly I am still a member of, would provide honest answers and honest information.
The world economy is in the poo. The country is in the poo. The airline is in deep poo. Only BASSA refuses to release information to its members.
I agree with the questions you have, "Why does the BASSA noticeboard in T5 have clippings about Willie Walsh's payrise, but not anything about his refusal to accept it"?
Has BASSA had access to the companies figures? If they have, why wont they release the information to the members? Why wont they deal honestly with their members?
It will be a huge turnaround and a monumental change of tack, but surely BASSA needs to negotiate the change, not have it driven through under SOSR. Lets face it the allowances system depicted above is a bit if a joke nowadays. But then again, peraps BASSA is as well.
Its not a talent or popularity contest, this isnt Big Brother or Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, this is events which are affecting real peoples lives.
Real people will lose jobs and homes.
Last edited by imastweardsothere; 15th Jun 2009 at 09:45.
Mistrust in Management
wobble2plank
Where did this little gem pop up from? This is about CC productivity but yet again we get mired into a 'but he's got more than I've got' playground argument. This has been explained many times before. Suffice to say that those who contribute less get less, simple truth rules of pension fund accumulation.
The statement is true if you are a member of the latest scheme (effectively money purchase). It is not necessarily true if you were a member of APS or NAPS. For both Flight Deck and Cabin Crew (and others) your final pension is loosely dependent on your final pay (with details too numerous to mention here).
So if you joined the airline as a check-in agent (in APS) and stayed for 30 years retiring as a check in agent (without any promotion) then your pension would be based upon your final salary with any increments. If you start as an F/O and stay as an F/O for say 15 years and then become a Captain for 15 years your pension will be based on your final salary as a Captain (PP24) although for 15 years your contributions would have been based on the salary of an F/O.
Same is true for Cabin Crew I might add who join as Main Crew but end up as a CSD.
I know at least two people who are still in the same grade on the ground as they were 38 years ago and it is folk like this who, to an extent, fund the additional benefits a lot of us enjoy.
I wish you all the best in emerging from the current mess relatively unscathed. Whilst I hold a healthy suspicion of anything that comes from the mouth of BA management it would seem to me that in truth these are difficult times for the airline and that something has to give.
I'm sure it has been looked at by all (hopefully BASSA also) but temporary concessions would be the route that I would have wished to see - however I suspect that BA are looking for more permanent solutions.
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Dear Moderator. Not sure which part of my last post you did not like. Sorry about that. SP
The point you have all missed is that things will get better/are getting better. Already the price of oil is rising and the FTSE has gained 15% since the beginning of the year. Walsh has got to hurry up screwing his workforce, otherwise by the time the cuts are made the airline will be in profit again! Obviously it would be as profitable as Luthansa is now (who have just awarded their cabin crew a pay rise and improvement in T&C's), if it wasn't for the disastrous fuel hedging positions we currently are tied to.
I am very surprised that the managers responsible for Fuel Hedging have not been dismissed or reprimanded, for virtually bankrupting British Airways. Mr Wals was very quick to sack Gareth Kirkwood and David Noyes over the T5 debacle. Why is he so selective with who he fires?
The problem for the cabin crew is that WW is not offering any hope. If sacrifice is made now, there will be no compensation later when the profits roll back in. Management will benefit through their bonus award package, but reductions in T&C's will stick forever. This is unacceptable.
BA management have a long history of incompetence. Under Bob Ayling's BEP savings of £42m were demanded. This is when the new low pay contracts were started which are now apparently too costly as well. However BA went and wasted £67m ( and much more than that probably) painting the aircraft tailfins in new ethnic desgins. Later as we all know, that decision was reversed and even more money was wasted painting them into the current 'Chatham' design. Once bitten, twice shy I am afraid.
Anyone would think BASSA have not even negotiated or offered a viable alternative, but they have. Unfortunately with Walsh it is his way or the highway. Confrontation is inevitable.
The point you have all missed is that things will get better/are getting better. Already the price of oil is rising and the FTSE has gained 15% since the beginning of the year. Walsh has got to hurry up screwing his workforce, otherwise by the time the cuts are made the airline will be in profit again! Obviously it would be as profitable as Luthansa is now (who have just awarded their cabin crew a pay rise and improvement in T&C's), if it wasn't for the disastrous fuel hedging positions we currently are tied to.
I am very surprised that the managers responsible for Fuel Hedging have not been dismissed or reprimanded, for virtually bankrupting British Airways. Mr Wals was very quick to sack Gareth Kirkwood and David Noyes over the T5 debacle. Why is he so selective with who he fires?
The problem for the cabin crew is that WW is not offering any hope. If sacrifice is made now, there will be no compensation later when the profits roll back in. Management will benefit through their bonus award package, but reductions in T&C's will stick forever. This is unacceptable.
BA management have a long history of incompetence. Under Bob Ayling's BEP savings of £42m were demanded. This is when the new low pay contracts were started which are now apparently too costly as well. However BA went and wasted £67m ( and much more than that probably) painting the aircraft tailfins in new ethnic desgins. Later as we all know, that decision was reversed and even more money was wasted painting them into the current 'Chatham' design. Once bitten, twice shy I am afraid.
Anyone would think BASSA have not even negotiated or offered a viable alternative, but they have. Unfortunately with Walsh it is his way or the highway. Confrontation is inevitable.
Last edited by Stall Pusher; 15th Jun 2009 at 10:48.
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Stickpusher, welcome back. The price of oil rising is bad for an airline.
Why hasnt BASSA advised its members of the true state of the business.
We need to negotiate permanent salary cuts now to stop them being imposed under SOSR.
If we union negotiates cuts, the airline will go broke, looking at the cash burn v cash reserves, potentially by the New Year.
The payback later..............will be still having a job.
Why hasnt BASSA advised its members of the true state of the business.
We need to negotiate permanent salary cuts now to stop them being imposed under SOSR.
If we union negotiates cuts, the airline will go broke, looking at the cash burn v cash reserves, potentially by the New Year.
The payback later..............will be still having a job.
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Bloomberg Article: US-Europe premium fare reductions
This is an interesting article that may impact your thoughts on BA's cost reduction plans and, indeed, its general business planning for the foreseeable future.
Basically, the article states that two US carriers (Delta and American) have reduced fares in Business Class by over 50%. Business Class to LHR for June is now under $2,000. How does that compare to BA CW?
Link to the full article below:
Delta, AMR See Revenue Vanish as New York Business Fares Tumble - Bloomberg.com
Basically, the article states that two US carriers (Delta and American) have reduced fares in Business Class by over 50%. Business Class to LHR for June is now under $2,000. How does that compare to BA CW?
Link to the full article below:
Delta, AMR See Revenue Vanish as New York Business Fares Tumble - Bloomberg.com
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If one thinks that prem pax are going to return and thus both the revenues and yields to the post credit crunch levels, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.Bankers, lawyers, M&A have all slashed there travel budgets, both slashing the pax count and the seats they travel in.
Were flying aircraft that are configured to carry Premium paying customer's - that no longer exist. There are many article on city boards stating that Prem travel will never return to the same levels that we have enjoyed for so many years.
Its simple - we have a fraction of the money coming in - but the same money going out. It 'ain't rocket science folks.
Please tell your BASAA reps to listen to reason. If you guys go on strike when the rest of us will be taking pain through pay cuts & productivity I honestly believe that you could bring the whole company down. If you don't believe this - start doing some INDEPENDENT research in the companies financial state. Stop listening to the broken record that is BASSA.
This time its for really folks - don't be a sheep and make your own independent mind up.
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Andy. BA is not going bust. It will not be bust at the end of the year. We may have a different CEO by the end of the year, but the airline will still be there.
If BA really thought that premium travel was not coming back to previous levels, they would not be making the investment in the new First Class cabin. Crew are continuing to receive Premium training courses, so the upgrade for First must still be on the cards. First travel will recover. True there will not be so many bankers sitting in there, but there are a lot more millionaires around these days.
The blueprint for getting us through a difficult time is no different now than before. If there are too many empty seats, you simply have to cut capacity. BA have not done this quick enough and you have to ask yourself why? Before now First cabins have been closed and crew compliments reduced. Why has this not been done?
The reason is political. The plan was to only offer part time if you transfered to the new fleet. So far this year we have run with a surplus of cabin crew getting loads of 24hr av's, when unpaid leave, part time or VS should have been offered.
Only two 744's have been grounded this year, yet we are taking delivery of 4 new 777-2200ER's. New routes have stated to Saudi, extra service to JNB and new destinations are being added like Las Vegas, Maldives etc. Harldly the moves of an airline about to go bust.
If BA was in such a desperate state, OpenSKies would be grounded and the new LCY/JFK service shelved until the market improves. If you cannot fill the Club cabins in mainline from LHR to JFK, why start a new business only operation in competition with your own product? It does not make sense.
Suddenly there is a change of tack by IFCE. Events have overtaken the master plan and management are playing catch up with the situation. They are doing now what they should have done in January.
If BA really thought that premium travel was not coming back to previous levels, they would not be making the investment in the new First Class cabin. Crew are continuing to receive Premium training courses, so the upgrade for First must still be on the cards. First travel will recover. True there will not be so many bankers sitting in there, but there are a lot more millionaires around these days.
The blueprint for getting us through a difficult time is no different now than before. If there are too many empty seats, you simply have to cut capacity. BA have not done this quick enough and you have to ask yourself why? Before now First cabins have been closed and crew compliments reduced. Why has this not been done?
The reason is political. The plan was to only offer part time if you transfered to the new fleet. So far this year we have run with a surplus of cabin crew getting loads of 24hr av's, when unpaid leave, part time or VS should have been offered.
Only two 744's have been grounded this year, yet we are taking delivery of 4 new 777-2200ER's. New routes have stated to Saudi, extra service to JNB and new destinations are being added like Las Vegas, Maldives etc. Harldly the moves of an airline about to go bust.
If BA was in such a desperate state, OpenSKies would be grounded and the new LCY/JFK service shelved until the market improves. If you cannot fill the Club cabins in mainline from LHR to JFK, why start a new business only operation in competition with your own product? It does not make sense.
Suddenly there is a change of tack by IFCE. Events have overtaken the master plan and management are playing catch up with the situation. They are doing now what they should have done in January.
Last edited by Stall Pusher; 15th Jun 2009 at 11:15.
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Has BASSA had access to the companies figures? If they have, why wont they release the information to the members? Why wont they deal honestly with their members?
I suppose it's better for them to tell íts members that they haven't seen any of it.
I heard from one crew who had heard (these rumours) that BASSA will not negotiate until they have seen the books. Go figure.