BA and Project Columbus III
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To be fair the people who fly the aircraft should be earning significantly more money than the fight attendants. I am led to believe that the flight deck have to train at great cost in monetary terms and time.
How long does it take to train to be a flight attendant? I hate to be so blunt but being a flight attendant is an unskilled job and I am sure that it will be far easier to recruit them than the Pilots.
When comparing the two jobs it should be the same as comparing a Doctor and a Nurse, it is obvious that the Doctor will earn a significant amount more.
And on a separate note i am shocked at some of the posts on here, the world economy is in dire straights, millions of people are losing their jobs and it is obvious that this will impact on what people are prepared to pay to fly. I have had to cut right back on my travel budget!! We are encouraged to make conference calls, and if we fly we can only fly Premium Economy, on the cheapest ticket. I do not believe that BA has made up the figures that have been announced recently and I really genuinely fear for your company. This is a time when you should be all working together to pull through this mess, if you don't it will only be a matter of time before you are no longer a going concern. Reading between the lines it appears that the unions are bombarding you with lots of propaganda.
How long does it take to train to be a flight attendant? I hate to be so blunt but being a flight attendant is an unskilled job and I am sure that it will be far easier to recruit them than the Pilots.
When comparing the two jobs it should be the same as comparing a Doctor and a Nurse, it is obvious that the Doctor will earn a significant amount more.
And on a separate note i am shocked at some of the posts on here, the world economy is in dire straights, millions of people are losing their jobs and it is obvious that this will impact on what people are prepared to pay to fly. I have had to cut right back on my travel budget!! We are encouraged to make conference calls, and if we fly we can only fly Premium Economy, on the cheapest ticket. I do not believe that BA has made up the figures that have been announced recently and I really genuinely fear for your company. This is a time when you should be all working together to pull through this mess, if you don't it will only be a matter of time before you are no longer a going concern. Reading between the lines it appears that the unions are bombarding you with lots of propaganda.
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Ahh Pinkaroo, welcome back with your 'insights'.
I won't rise to your bait as this thread has had enough creep to prevent it. Suffice to say that the comparison has been well made and argued on a vast variety of threads about CC and FC. They are NOT in any way shape or form the same jobs. A court Usher doesn't get or deserve the same conditions as the judge even though they both work in a courthouse.
BA FC have already been benchmarked and we are well aware of where we sit in the food chain. The pay scales represent the training, checking and investment made to be in that position . Our rosters are stable and quantifiable. All that is happening is that the company wish to do the same for the CC. The pain that has been absorbed over the past 5-6 years is coming as a one hit to the CC.
Personally, I would rather put up with slightly worse CC service than have a 250 hour wonder Captain flying the 747-400 (Think of the quick actions of the BA38 and the recent JNB and then you realise that FC are there for insurance when the proverbial hit the fan).
Your turn.
Why is it, when it has been proven that BA CC are being paid way over the current going rate for CC, as reflected by the savings amount required by the company, that the initial reaction of some members of BASSA is 'We CAN'T take a pay cut, it's not fair, we are all all right, everyone else must be over paid!'?
Grow up Pinkaroo.
I won't rise to your bait as this thread has had enough creep to prevent it. Suffice to say that the comparison has been well made and argued on a vast variety of threads about CC and FC. They are NOT in any way shape or form the same jobs. A court Usher doesn't get or deserve the same conditions as the judge even though they both work in a courthouse.
BA FC have already been benchmarked and we are well aware of where we sit in the food chain. The pay scales represent the training, checking and investment made to be in that position . Our rosters are stable and quantifiable. All that is happening is that the company wish to do the same for the CC. The pain that has been absorbed over the past 5-6 years is coming as a one hit to the CC.
Personally, I would rather put up with slightly worse CC service than have a 250 hour wonder Captain flying the 747-400 (Think of the quick actions of the BA38 and the recent JNB and then you realise that FC are there for insurance when the proverbial hit the fan).
Your turn.
Why is it, when it has been proven that BA CC are being paid way over the current going rate for CC, as reflected by the savings amount required by the company, that the initial reaction of some members of BASSA is 'We CAN'T take a pay cut, it's not fair, we are all all right, everyone else must be over paid!'?
Grow up Pinkaroo.
Last edited by wobble2plank; 31st May 2009 at 08:02.
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It has been pointed out many times here before - but once again just in case you missed it. Flight Crew salaries have been benchmarked against other airlines - or in blunt English, they get the going rate. Cabin Crew are being paid, on average, twice that of their nearest competitor.
Given the large wages that BA LHR CC earn it would not be unreasonable to expect that they are part of a flexible workforce delivering a high quality service. Unfortunately that is not what happens at LHR - any small thing happening out of the ordinary and someone is onto the union to find a way of saying NO. The only exception to this is when another 5 minutes would trigger another Box payment. Things need to move on, BASSA has an opportunity to be part of the solution - rather they choose to be part of the problem.
All discussion etc on these matters has to be complete by the end of June, then WW will start imposing change. Better to allow productivity changes to pay for the savings and keep the salary the same than see imposed cuts in both pay and conditions.
Given the large wages that BA LHR CC earn it would not be unreasonable to expect that they are part of a flexible workforce delivering a high quality service. Unfortunately that is not what happens at LHR - any small thing happening out of the ordinary and someone is onto the union to find a way of saying NO. The only exception to this is when another 5 minutes would trigger another Box payment. Things need to move on, BASSA has an opportunity to be part of the solution - rather they choose to be part of the problem.
All discussion etc on these matters has to be complete by the end of June, then WW will start imposing change. Better to allow productivity changes to pay for the savings and keep the salary the same than see imposed cuts in both pay and conditions.
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Frankly its an irrelevance whether or not certain crewmembers believe the company is in dire financial straits. If they don't deliver the goods by June 30th a solution will be imposed and there'll be no will to strike from the majority of crew or the union leadership (Unite that is, not the uber-militant BASSA). Game, set and match to Willie.
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Just to add a little balance to this debate, the vast majority of CC out of LHR are excellent to fly with, have a good, solid grip of the situation within the company and the requirements needed to pull us out of the mire.
They are well aware of the fact that their terms are above average when compared to their peers and they have somewhat resigned that an 'adjustment' has been a long time coming. This majority sit and think about the current situation and are of the same conclusion as the FC that if we don't act now, lose a little for the gain of long term employment, we could all/most of us be thrust into a very unforgiving job environment amidst very uncertain economic times. From which scenario do we stand to lose the most? None of us like or possibly even can afford a pay cut. It is coming one way or another to the FC and we all accept that. However if that is what is required to guarantee future employment then I will take it. Accept the pain now for the financial return of the future.
Sadly there are an extremely vocal minority who continue to refuse to believe that the current situation is real. Despite warnings from the BALPA BACC who have seen PWC (Price Waterhouse Coopers) independent financial appraisal of BA's financial position they continue to crow that it is all a mean, management underhand trick to crowbar changes to the 'hard earned' conditions that the CC currently enjoy.
Those conditions were set way back when BA was still a nationalised industry! Back when no 'human rights' issues got in the way of who should or shouldn't be recruited as CC. Hence they were set to entice the 'right people' into the job. So, there are very few who still remain within the company who joined up in the 70's, they were 'given' those contracts and all those subsequently have benefitted from the lack of willingness on BA's part to change it.
I think the quiet majority of well intentioned, hard working CC will win this one out as even they are getting tired of the old BASSA rhetoric.
Time will tell.
They are well aware of the fact that their terms are above average when compared to their peers and they have somewhat resigned that an 'adjustment' has been a long time coming. This majority sit and think about the current situation and are of the same conclusion as the FC that if we don't act now, lose a little for the gain of long term employment, we could all/most of us be thrust into a very unforgiving job environment amidst very uncertain economic times. From which scenario do we stand to lose the most? None of us like or possibly even can afford a pay cut. It is coming one way or another to the FC and we all accept that. However if that is what is required to guarantee future employment then I will take it. Accept the pain now for the financial return of the future.
Sadly there are an extremely vocal minority who continue to refuse to believe that the current situation is real. Despite warnings from the BALPA BACC who have seen PWC (Price Waterhouse Coopers) independent financial appraisal of BA's financial position they continue to crow that it is all a mean, management underhand trick to crowbar changes to the 'hard earned' conditions that the CC currently enjoy.
Those conditions were set way back when BA was still a nationalised industry! Back when no 'human rights' issues got in the way of who should or shouldn't be recruited as CC. Hence they were set to entice the 'right people' into the job. So, there are very few who still remain within the company who joined up in the 70's, they were 'given' those contracts and all those subsequently have benefitted from the lack of willingness on BA's part to change it.
I think the quiet majority of well intentioned, hard working CC will win this one out as even they are getting tired of the old BASSA rhetoric.
Time will tell.
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Dezso
Your post makes very good sense and I agree with everything you have said with one exception by comparing pilots and flight attendant with doctors and nurses.
That is a little unfair to nurses to be classed on the same level as flight attendants. Nurses unlike flight attendants are skilled workers and their duties are far more important.
Perhaps you comparison should have been the differance bewtween doctors and hospital porters.(no offence to hospital porters)
Nurses have to train for 3 or 4 years before they can perform their important duties, not 5 weeks like flight attendants do.
No offence to flight attendants either they do a damned good job and should be grateful they have such a wonderful job. I agree most of them probably understand the current financial situation their employer is in and are willing to change.
I have spoken to a two BA cabin crew who are my neighbours and they seem very reasonable and realise things much change in order for them to have a job in the future.
It is clearly the vocal minority of hard line Bassa supporters that are bringing the rest of them down.
Bassa are unlikely to win this one, my opinion is it is all about power.
Your post makes very good sense and I agree with everything you have said with one exception by comparing pilots and flight attendant with doctors and nurses.
That is a little unfair to nurses to be classed on the same level as flight attendants. Nurses unlike flight attendants are skilled workers and their duties are far more important.
Perhaps you comparison should have been the differance bewtween doctors and hospital porters.(no offence to hospital porters)
Nurses have to train for 3 or 4 years before they can perform their important duties, not 5 weeks like flight attendants do.
No offence to flight attendants either they do a damned good job and should be grateful they have such a wonderful job. I agree most of them probably understand the current financial situation their employer is in and are willing to change.
I have spoken to a two BA cabin crew who are my neighbours and they seem very reasonable and realise things much change in order for them to have a job in the future.
It is clearly the vocal minority of hard line Bassa supporters that are bringing the rest of them down.
Bassa are unlikely to win this one, my opinion is it is all about power.
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From what I have been led to believe, even the top BASSA peeps now realise the importance and relevance of the present financial situation - ie the need for decisive, prompt action.
The problems they face is of learning literally overnight how to negotiate (rather than just say 'no'), how to reach a compromise and most importantly (and perhaps difficultly) how to manage the expectations to their members who they have told for years that the company will always give in to them.
Chicken ... to ... roost ... home ... come
The problems they face is of learning literally overnight how to negotiate (rather than just say 'no'), how to reach a compromise and most importantly (and perhaps difficultly) how to manage the expectations to their members who they have told for years that the company will always give in to them.
Chicken ... to ... roost ... home ... come
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I apologize, you're correct! I should not have made that comparison.
I have no idea if this is about power, I can only read what is posted here and I draw my own conclusions, BASSA may not win but then BA may not win either - the British Public will be the losers as they will have to support 35,000 people through benefits, while they desperately look for other jobs. All this talk of fighting for terms and conditions while brave is not realistic, companies all over the world are changing their working practices to adjust to this crisis. The people who still have a job are lucky - millions would love the opportunity to keep their job - even it meant working a little harder for a little less. The alternative is much worse!!
I have to say if I was another airline then I would probably be reluctant to employ a BA crew member. If BA goes under due to industrial action, or the threat of this by Flight Attendants then i cannot see any sympathy coming from the public. The Flight Attendants may all be viewed the same, rightly or wrongly as militant employees who are not prepared to compromise!! Seriously what manager would want to invite that type of person into their organization.
However, that said I love BA and most of the crew and really hope you can pull through this - but common sense needs to prevail - this is real, it's not a conspiracy - General Motors is a good example of the crisis, their terms and conditions will need to be changed and thousands will be furloughed.
I have no idea if this is about power, I can only read what is posted here and I draw my own conclusions, BASSA may not win but then BA may not win either - the British Public will be the losers as they will have to support 35,000 people through benefits, while they desperately look for other jobs. All this talk of fighting for terms and conditions while brave is not realistic, companies all over the world are changing their working practices to adjust to this crisis. The people who still have a job are lucky - millions would love the opportunity to keep their job - even it meant working a little harder for a little less. The alternative is much worse!!
I have to say if I was another airline then I would probably be reluctant to employ a BA crew member. If BA goes under due to industrial action, or the threat of this by Flight Attendants then i cannot see any sympathy coming from the public. The Flight Attendants may all be viewed the same, rightly or wrongly as militant employees who are not prepared to compromise!! Seriously what manager would want to invite that type of person into their organization.
However, that said I love BA and most of the crew and really hope you can pull through this - but common sense needs to prevail - this is real, it's not a conspiracy - General Motors is a good example of the crisis, their terms and conditions will need to be changed and thousands will be furloughed.
Thread Starter
I see at least one recent post claiming oil is back at $50 a barrel....no it's not, folks, it's on the rise and likely to continue to do so.... a fact that almost certainly means more pain for airline employees, irrespective of the airline, job discription or pay grade......
Commodities - Latest Trading Prices and Data from CNNMoney.com
Commodities - Latest Trading Prices and Data from CNNMoney.com
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Just had a steward telling me on the bus, how good Branson and his management team are
After all they made a great big profit and BA didn't so it must be down to poor BA management
I pointed out that if you scratch beneath the surface of VS results you actually see that they only just broke even, and that the VS results did not include the month of March which saw the biggest drop in premium traffic across the globe.
He replied that the VS fuel hedgers were much better than BA, cos they only spent a £1billion on fuel last year and BA spent £3billion. Shame I needed to spell out that BA are over 3 times the size of Virgin................... I then suggested that if he thought VS were that good perhaps he should apply, nah after 24 years at BA I thought not
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...so it must be down to poor BA management.
The trouble is this though. The management (pick your department) have been economical with the truth so frequently in the past that no one believes them any more. Frankly, the response of the Ostrich Brigade on here is no real surprise.
The fact remains that if changes aren't made, BA will not be around much longer. Don't ask me, ask Price Waterhouse Cooper. The one guarantee I will make is that WW does not want to go down in history as the last CEO of British Airways and he will do anything he needs to do to prevent that. If it means imposing an arrangement on the cabin crew, he will. You've been warned and you have the rest of June to sort something out. Would you like some sort of say in the changes or not? That's up to you to decide but changes will be made. Rest assured.
BA have a fighting fund but it is not limitless. A strike will probably kill the airline, which shouldn't be a problem for most of you as that seems to be what you want and you'll just waltz into an equally well paying job the following day. Won't you?
Grow up.
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I cannot understand how some people are convinced by statements from accountants.I class them along with bankers,estate agents and politicians,none of whom can be believed to be correct or honest 100% of the time.We all know the expression that accountants can make figures prove anything and that has been shown to be the case on countless occasions.Look at the facts,BA announces losses of 400 million,states that fuel costs rose by 800 million,fuel has now slumped back from the peak of $150 per barrel.You do not have to be an accountant to realise that if fuel remains around $50-$60 per barrel,BA will be around 700 million better off in this financial year,maybe more if the number of aircraft grounded is to be believed.I accept the downturn in premium passenger traffic,however pundits are pointing to an upturn in economic fortunes.Japan saw the highest rate of manufacturing growth for 50 years last month,the london stock exchange has risen by more than 30% since reaching rock bottom in march,even the USA is predicting the worst of the recession is over.I concede that the market is very difficult for BA at the moment,but it will improve,the question is when.Management are hoping to use this downturn to deploy a smash and grap policy on all employees terms and conditions.No wonder there is an urgent agenda.If the economic climate suddenly improves,they will have lost this window of opportunity to reduce pay and conditions.Sceptical,maybe,but BA management over the years have taught me to be sceptical,indeed,disbelieving of statements and dictats.I am still optimistic about BA's long term viability and profitability.The real challenge is not employee costs,it's addressing the enormous NAP's pension deficit,which is a huge millstone around the companys' neck.Let's see how things pan out over the coming months,then we can come back to all our imputs on this topic.
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Bermuda,
paragraphs pleeeeease.
It will make the rantings from whichever planet you are on much more readable.
paragraphs pleeeeease.
It will make the rantings from whichever planet you are on much more readable.
Last edited by plodding along; 31st May 2009 at 19:18. Reason: spelling
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As much as I would love to keep our T&C at LHR I can't really see how it should be done and I can understand if BA is struggling financially. I came home from BKK and SYD the other day and I did a bit of calculation to see how much EVERY trip costs BA.
Meal allowances: Approximately £360
Box payments: Approximately £300
That's around £660 per crew member (12 main crew on 747). For PSR (3 on 747) it would be £765 and CSD (1) £805.
Do the maths: £805 + £2295 + £7920 = £11020 (per flight!). That's nearly £80000 per week in only allowances!
Meal allowances: Approximately £360
Box payments: Approximately £300
That's around £660 per crew member (12 main crew on 747). For PSR (3 on 747) it would be £765 and CSD (1) £805.
Do the maths: £805 + £2295 + £7920 = £11020 (per flight!). That's nearly £80000 per week in only allowances!
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I cannot understand how some people are convinced by statements from accountants...
Last edited by Human Factor; 1st Jun 2009 at 06:55.
Thread Starter
bemuda...
You'll get no argument from me about accountants but FFS get your head out of your backside...you say "if fuel remains around $50-$60 per barrel"... what do you mean "remain", it's not $50-$60 now, it's already above that level and rising, and will continue to rise as the alledged green shoots appear - you know, the green shoots BASSA are relying on to maintain T&Cs .....
BTW what are BASSA saying about VR, CR, part time working etc as a result of the definite grounding of eight 747s and eight 757s this Winter... please, please don't tell me they are claiming it'll just mean less work with no loss of income
( edited to add: I've just seen the latest BASSA newsletter - guess my comments above about the oil price and grounded hulls could be construed as "pilot propaganda" rather than statements of fact .... sorry
)
and, BTW I also agree with you that NAPs is the next big, big, big problem .
nuigini
To be fair to BA Cabin Crew, you shouldn't quote the BA figures for a BKK/SYD in isolation..what do QF/SIN/VS pay their crews for a similar trip.
BTW what are BASSA saying about VR, CR, part time working etc as a result of the definite grounding of eight 747s and eight 757s this Winter... please, please don't tell me they are claiming it'll just mean less work with no loss of income
( edited to add: I've just seen the latest BASSA newsletter - guess my comments above about the oil price and grounded hulls could be construed as "pilot propaganda" rather than statements of fact .... sorry
)and, BTW I also agree with you that NAPs is the next big, big, big problem .
nuigini
To be fair to BA Cabin Crew, you shouldn't quote the BA figures for a BKK/SYD in isolation..what do QF/SIN/VS pay their crews for a similar trip.
Last edited by wiggy; 31st May 2009 at 21:51.
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Flight Crew salaries have been benchmarked against other airlines - or in blunt English, they get the going rate. Cabin Crew are being paid, on average, twice that of their nearest competitor.
If all the other operational variables are effectivley the sameas their competitor airlines ( A/C lease/finance, fuel, maintenance, catering , etc . etc.) but CC costs are so much higher then their margin per flight or per seat is going to be eroded.
Based on nuigini's figures
BA:£805 + £2295 + £7920 = £11020 (per flight!).
Next nearest competitor: £405 + 1650 + 4000= £6055 ( per flight)( rounded up)
Based on a BA 744 with say 291 seats this equates to a difference per flight of around £17 per seat or £4964 total.
This may look like a significant difference but its actually quite manageable -provided load factors can be maintained. The problem at the moment is that premium demand is low and so the profitable (more profitable) traffic is relatively light. In the good times simply having two extra business class seats occupied might make the difference. BA would argue that as a premium airline it is more likley that their premium pax numbers will be higher than their next nearest competitor.
By all accounts the credit crunch is hitting every airline so BA is not alone in it's premium pax shortage. However, something will have to give and I cannot see how BA intend to keep operating with CC T&C that do not properly refect market conditions.
GM today have announced bankruptcy measures in the US. Nothing to do with aviation except GM is a lumbering giant whose heyday was in the 60s and 70s who simply lost track of what people wanted. Moreover, what has really hit them, brought into sharp focus by the world recession, is the unrealsitic remuneration package ( healthcare benefits etc. ) that the employees have become used to.
Unless you can get a hold on these problems really early it can become a downward spiral. Staff cannot find alternative employment on similar T&C and become increasingly reluctant to compromise on the " I' m alright Jack" principle and rely on militant TU support to defend a renegotaition of T&C.
One would hope this isn't the position at BA.
( Tightslot - before you delete this posting or close the thread I have posted this as an objective view NOT as some anti BA rant!)
Thread Starter
Munnyspinner
"Unless you can get a hold on these problems really early it can become a downward spiral. Staff cannot find alternative employment on similar T&C and become increasingly reluctant to compromise on the " I' m alright Jack" principle and rely on militant TU support to defend a renegotaition of T&C."
Nicely summed up, but you still need to be sure of the other operators figures for a similar trip/secor to get the true differential...........and as far as I recall it our 744s on the Far East trips carry more than 291 pax..so the differential may not be as big as you claim - nevertheless the underlying principle still remains.
Nicely summed up, but you still need to be sure of the other operators figures for a similar trip/secor to get the true differential...........and as far as I recall it our 744s on the Far East trips carry more than 291 pax..so the differential may not be as big as you claim - nevertheless the underlying principle still remains.
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The 291 was based on 744 in Wt ( 70 Business class seats) configuration i.e.
First Class: 14 Flat bed sleeping pods
Club World Class: 70 Flat bed seats More Info
World Traveler Plus Class: 30 seats with 2 more inches of recline than standard
World Traveler Class: 177 seats with foot rests and neck supports
Perhaps a more usual configuration is the 52 Business class seats layout? 329 total.
First Class: 14 Flat bed sleeping pods
Club World Class: 52 Flat bed seats
World Traveler Plus Class: 36 seats with 2 more inches of recline than standard
World Traveler Class: 227 seats
A per seat analysis is far too simplistic and was only meant to illustrate the point ,which you kindly acknowledge, and I agree that apples with apples will only give the true picture.
Assuming the same crew numbers for the 52 Bus. config. this would reduce the differential per seat to £15 - a number probably quite easily absorbed in ticket prices. Remembers also that BA can cite efficeinces of scale in some areas that make them more competitive that their nearest rivals. However, although this may be true they will need to work hard to maintain that advantage.
First Class: 14 Flat bed sleeping pods
Club World Class: 70 Flat bed seats More Info
World Traveler Plus Class: 30 seats with 2 more inches of recline than standard
World Traveler Class: 177 seats with foot rests and neck supports
Perhaps a more usual configuration is the 52 Business class seats layout? 329 total.
First Class: 14 Flat bed sleeping pods
Club World Class: 52 Flat bed seats
World Traveler Plus Class: 36 seats with 2 more inches of recline than standard
World Traveler Class: 227 seats
A per seat analysis is far too simplistic and was only meant to illustrate the point ,which you kindly acknowledge, and I agree that apples with apples will only give the true picture.
Assuming the same crew numbers for the 52 Bus. config. this would reduce the differential per seat to £15 - a number probably quite easily absorbed in ticket prices. Remembers also that BA can cite efficeinces of scale in some areas that make them more competitive that their nearest rivals. However, although this may be true they will need to work hard to maintain that advantage.
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Almost £1B profit last year. Where did that go? That was with existing staff costs. The thing I find hardest to stomach, is the desire for one employee to actively seek to reduce another colleagues remuneration.
We should all be striving to better our terms and conditions. Believe me, I am sure the people at the top where very well rewarded for last years performance.
Why not take 20% off of all employees salary? It would be saving money. Don't worry about bench marking? Where would the tens of thousands of staff go? So what if cabin crew are on double. Why not make every other department the worst in the industry?
If you were a CSD at LHR, why would you give up your money and way of life, to give it to someone else?
Oh and before you start talking about BASSA ostrich'itst, I no longer work for BA. I am a deferred pensioner, so a stake holder in the success of BA. I left BA for more money!
10 9 8 7 delete!
We should all be striving to better our terms and conditions. Believe me, I am sure the people at the top where very well rewarded for last years performance.
Why not take 20% off of all employees salary? It would be saving money. Don't worry about bench marking? Where would the tens of thousands of staff go? So what if cabin crew are on double. Why not make every other department the worst in the industry?
If you were a CSD at LHR, why would you give up your money and way of life, to give it to someone else?
Oh and before you start talking about BASSA ostrich'itst, I no longer work for BA. I am a deferred pensioner, so a stake holder in the success of BA. I left BA for more money!
10 9 8 7 delete!