Conan The Barber

PPRuNe really has turned into a socialist partyline.

Hot 'n' High

Sadly, Glamgirl, IMHO, that is not the case. The case is that, from the age of 8/9/10, kids, over the last few years, have been brought up by the “do-gooder touchy-feely brigade” to think that instructions don’t exist and that everything is up for “well, if I want to do it I’ll do it and, if I don’t, s*d ya!” Sadly, that is now appearing in the middle generation as well!

I have had several occasions to stop a Safety Brief mid flow as I am fortunate to see my Pax face to face. Each time I politely (but firmly) advise the passenger who was chatting away deliberately ignoring my Brief that, “not for your own safety, but for the Safety of your fellow passengers, I would be most grateful if I could be allowed to continue with my Safety Brief!”. Usually, the embarrassment of compromising fellow passengers’ Safety was enough to shut em up. Also, H ‘n’ H is no pretty picture – damn ugly actually – which helps on such occasions!

Am I joking about the kids? I’ve been married to Teachers (only 2 – that’s more than enough may I tell you!!!) for almost 20 years and, my oh my, if there is a job you don’t want to do, it is standing up teaching the younger generation!

Seriously, your quote makes out our colleagues are in the wrong! No way! As I say, look at the kids of today! Yes, we must communicate as best we can but, at the end of the day, sadly in our society, "Instructions" are becoming "optional"! Question is, how do we deal with that? Mmmmmm

Now, on a scale of 0 to 10, how was that for a "socialist" Rant? 13/10? Please?

Davaar

Long ago I was junior counsel to a large airline.

I travelled quite a bit but never once did I see an incident on board attributable to a passenger's seat belt being unfastened.

Funny thing, though, back at the office part of my daily work was to review reports (which you may be sure would be followed by claims for damages) of "in-flight incidents".

"Operations" copied me in on these in live time as and when received from the aircraft en route ..... medical emergencies, reports from physicians if one was on the passenger list, babies gone unconscious, passengers falling, scalds, choking, and of course "turbulence incidents", flying objects, bruises and claims of worse. No day passed without a crop from somewhere in the system, which ran from Los Angeles to Vienna, with North-South variations.

That is, even though I -- or you -- did not see them, someone did. They were routine spectatcles daily to stewards and stewardesses, as they were then known, somewhere in our business.

My practice in all flights was therefore to fasten the seat-belts, save when I was actually up and doing something.

The other determinant was my experience as a pilot when the vertical catches on the seat once became disconnected. At each little bump in turbulence I would shoot up to the top of the track with my bone-dome bumping off the canopy and the control column down by my ankles, or plunge into the bowels of the cockpit with the firing button opposite my nose, whence I would peer over the edge of the coaming. It was all the more exciting because I was in formation at the time. Not for long, though.

You have to experience unexpected unrestrained even modest +/- G-forces to appreciate just how unrestrained you really are.

I suggest you fasten the seat-belt.

P.S.

Years later I was with an airline that flew hard-rock miners into the Great North and out again after months of isolation. We flew DC-4s. We briefed lady cabin staff recruits were briefed that the lads had been away from the gentle refining influence of woman for some, perhaps many, months, and we recomended that they not fall in the aisles. If they absolutely could not avoid falling, we counselled, try not to fall on your back.

Final 3 Greens

Let's try to summarise the key points so far.....

Do CC request the FSB light for reasons other than safety - YES & NO

Can you have one rule for allowing people to go to the loo when the FSB light is on - YES & NO

Can CC make a judgement about whether it is safe for a pax to go to the loo - YES & NO

These are from posts by crew

Van Horck gets pilloried for asking for communication by Boarding Pass, who finds it difficult to communicate with passengers, yet can apparently receive PIREPS to decide whether it's safe to walk about in turb. That's definitely paranormal.

Then we have the classic industry attitude to educating the pax .... "In regards to the suggested movies showing the consequenses of turbulence and not wearing seat belts, I think we'd have even more pax scared of flying. Statistics show 40% don't like flying as it is, so that would take the percentage higher and possibly lose us more pax in the process."

In conclusion, if

- the pax are not fully educated to the dangers of the environment

- the crew have cognitive bias about communicating (as demonstrated by some here)

- the people paid to do the job don't agree about the use of the lights

Then don't be surprised if you have fun and games with some of your guests.

I also put it to you that the people who walk around in mod turb and choose to leave their belts undone are usually not PPLs or FFs, despite the predisposition of some around here who choose to sneer.

5Y NJB

Couldn't agree with your post more. However, no matter how well you educate people as to the dangers involved in any activity - be that driving a car, flying, smoking or listening to your iPod whilst riding a bike - there will still be a cross-section whose attitude will always be, "It won't happen to me" (and I'm not talking about the ones who, at TOD, need to answer the call of nature).

So what's the solution? Nail 'em to the seats...

Phil1980's

But on a 2 hour car journey I would want to stop at the service station after 1 hour for the toilet and a walk around...and that car...I have more room than in a plane seat

TeachMe

Two thoughts,

In many parts of the world, red traffic lights now have timers that tell people how long until it turns green. It seems that this information reduces stress and prevents trouble. Rough information of how long and why the light is on would seem to have a similar positive effect on passengers.

Second, any room for a three position seatbelt light on the next generation of planes?
1) Red - Everybody bolted down (SLF and CC)
2) Orange - Essential out of seat only (no more than quite light turbulence only??)
3) Yellow - Stretching your legs at the doors and waiting in loo lines fine

TME

vanHorck

constructive, well done!

ThreadBaron

TeachMe
'Yes'.
Also, 'Yes'.

However, (you knew that was coming, didn't you?), there are those who will not accept that the red light refers to them! We are just at a higher (really?) level.

FSB lit = Red. Red = FSB.

FSB lit is a red light.

What is the difference to those to whom the difference is nought!

FlapsForty was rightly aggrieved as a professional who attempts to carry out duties to the benefit of pax.

Me, I'm just a safety professional.

Guava Tree

"Short Sector” means Less Loo Time per passenger,and the whole amount of time free of dangerous turbulence needs to be fully used. Extreme cases of holding your wee wee are bad for your health and in some cases even eventually fatal. So, particularly on a short sector seat belt sign should, no, MUST, be used only to avoid danger, not for convenience.
If you “nail them to the seats” you may find that you have unusable seats for the next sector”.

A Comfy Chair

A lot of this comes down to some airlines having the policy of allowing Cabin Crew to be standing while the seat belt sign is on.

In my airline, ANY time the SB sign is on, ALL pax and crew are to be seated with seatbelts fastened.

Certainly prevents passengers thinking we're doing it to allow the CC to do the service unhindered... it just makes passengers think that we're doing it so that the CC don't have to do the meal service at all!

From the high and mighty soapbox:

1) ALWAYS wear your seatbelt when seated.
2) ONLY stand when it is necessary to - loo, or a quick walk around the cabin on a longhaul flight.

After the Qantas A330 incident, where those who weren't strapped in were, in a lot of cases, SEVERELY injured, you'd have thought that passengers would learn. But, alas, just 3 days later, I had a flight were the cabin crew did a quick informal survey and found that 50% of seated pax didn't have their belts on, despite "It is a Qantas requirement that when seated you have your seatbelt fastened", and a specific PA from both Cabin Manager AND Captain telling people to.

As for informing pax for the reason of the sign being on - Its a good idea during shorthaul daylight ops. Its a P.I.T.A on longhaul overnight flights when people are sleeping.

Interestingly our last CRM session with both Pilots and CC was about turbulence management. Interesting stuff.

TeachMe:
Your idea is a good one, except it our airline it really already applies. Sign OFF = your Orange, and ON = your Red.

Flaps40 - I would like to say that you do an excellent job... I remember reading your posts from years ago when I first joined, and I think that you do an excellent (and unenviable) job. Thank you for giving your time to look after us all here in the playpen! A very big from me.

Abusing_the_sky

Unfortunately, nowadays, pax think that getting on an a/c is like getting on a bus with wings...
Pax, because they are "paying CC's wages" (up for discussion), think they CAN disobey the CC's commands (CC being delegated to be in charge of the cabin by the lawful commander - the Captain)

For the love of God, grow up and grow some baIIs! If you know sooooo much about flying, surely you know how to control your grown a$$ bladder, and you'd know it's better to use your hotel's toilets or the terminal's toilets rather than an a/c's toilets in a 30 mins (from take off to touchdown) flight!

It's not bad CRM, it's not me being unprofessional; if i tell you to sit down and buckle up (with a smile on my face), because of this, that and the other, you ought to do as i tell you; remember when i told you it's "for your own safety and for the safety of pax around you?" I wasn't kidding and for sure i didn't want you "out of my way". I can do my job with you fannying about, "stretching your legs" in a 30 mins or longer flight.

Some SLF are prepared to pay beer money to fly safely from A to B, yet they have champagne taste; tell you what, buy your own bloody jet and have it your way, but even then the (private) CC will tell you to sit down, buckle up and shut up".

Some of you lot need a serious reality check; yes, the glamor of the job is now long gone, but you still have to obey the rules. FACT.

Rgds,
ATS

nemmis

As all the information given by the Major Airlines and the Medical orgainisations is for passengers on long haul flights to move around where possible by standing or walking about ,then keeping your seat belt on for the whole journey is a bit out dated .

A Comfy Chair

Not in my airline it isn't!

They have a series of exercises that can be done in your seat to ensure you keep enough movement to help prevent DVT. We show that it is NOT necessary to get up and move around.

That said, I agree you should get up and move around occasionally on a longhaul flight. Just a few minutes every hour makes the flight go faster! That doesn't mean you need to stand for an hour, and doesn't mean you can't have your seatbelt done up when you are seated.

nemmis

You should try flying with Virgin Atlantic as i do quite alot ,you would find you spend half the flight serving your self as the FAs have a wonderful habit of vanishing so we all end up in the back galley upstairs in PE ,and on the night flights its even worse .

Dushan

ATS,
with all due respect, you have to understand that a male PAX in in his late 50s has a lot less control over his bladder function than a child, as you are implying. It is not a matter of "you should have thought about this before you left". Check OAB.

Number34

In Australia anyway, the seat belt sign is regarded as a legal command from the pilot. So to those who don't put it on when told to (regardless of their opinion) and get hurt, its their own fault. Personal responsibility is a thing of the past in this day and age and I wish people would stop blaming others for their own mistakes and stop ruining the experience that flying used to be

EYXW

A startlingly long thread about seat belts yet again!

Who would have thought something so simple really could be such a bone of contention - I believe they have trained rats to react to certain lights being illuminated in their cages yet after more than 100 years of aviation it seems that SOME people will always know better.

The story linked to at the beginning of this seemingly endless thread quite clearly demonstrates the result of assuming the belt sign is merely for decoration.

To assume that the light has been left on accidently is, as the well worn term points out, only going to make an ass of you and me or, quite possibly, an ass with a broken pelvis.

If the lights have been left on for what seems like an age do what the majority of sensible passengers I have met over the years do - ask the CC if there is a delay for a reason - many times I have been able to return to give an estimate of time or just that the Pilot's have forgotten once clear of forecast turbulence.

In my career I have seen the lights turned on once to restore order in the aisles - this was because a teacher (on a Naples flight if that helps some CC visualise the exact situation) decided to conduct a meeting at row 25 of our 73. The Captain was curious as to why the trim wheels had just had a fit and passengers were curious as to where the crew were (imprisoned in the rear galley) when no ammount of, quite frankly, shouting got them to sit down a simple *ding* seemed to do the trick.

I feel ashamed at having added so much more twaddle to this twaddle filled thread but I just had to vent - sorry.

I loved being Cabin Crew but feel ever so grateful for now having a sealed door between me and this never ending seat belt battle - (don't worry I only put the light on when I think there is a good chance that first class might spill red wine on the new upholstery.)

Final 3 Greens

You raise an interesting angle.

I am a management consultant and I specialise in organizational change management, which incorporates behavioural change, I have about 15 years experience and am qualified to masters degree level, as well as having a diploma in trick cycling. As well as ‘pure’ consulting work, I also get involved in workshops and training courses to help people acquire new attitudes and skills.

Mentioning the famous rat experiments is a double edged sword, which cuts back at the airline industry, as well as the passengers, who I hasten to add I am not defending for ignoring the belt sign.

Operant conditioning (as demonstrated in the rat experiments, which you can find on You Tube) is based on two principles, positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement and is different to punishment, since reinforcement seeks to create behaviour, whilst punishment seeks to stop it, by applying a sanction.

Positive reinforcement involves giving a reward for a desired behaviour, e.g. if the rat presses a lever, then it receives a food pellet.

Negative reinforcement means that in return for a desired behaviour, an unpleasant stimulus will be removed, in the case of the rats, pressing the lever cuts off the (low, but uncomfortable) supply of electricity to the cage floor.

These experiments (and others) demonstrate that patterns of behaviour can be created, but also that these behaviours will disappear without reinforcement.

In the famous dog experiment, Pavlov’s research showed that dogs conditioned to salivate at the sound of a bell would cease to do so if the food associated with the bell was removed permanently.

Now, if you subdue your cognitive bias (“yet after more than 100 years of aviation it seems that SOME people will always know better”) and really think about the research, you may come to some conclusions from your empirical observations as a cabin crew member.

1. What the average passenger knows about aviation can be written on a postage stamp and most if it is wrong, e.g how do passengers judge a good/bad landing?

2. There is no education process to teach the average passenger about the dangers of turbulence, apart from rather bland briefings that lack impact

3. Positive reinforcement is not an option, what are you going to go, hand out prizes for buckling up? I suppose you could do a quiz post brief, for prizes!

4. Negative reinforcement (the best option IMHO) is generally lacking – I wish that crew would talk to the passengers as you talk here and tell them of the injuries that you have seen, so that they learn (like the rates) to comply

5. Even punishment is not often applied – I could pull my hair out when cabin crew don’t tell passengers to sit down when the belt sign is on – I’ve had people in the aisle next to me taking heavy cases down from the overheads in light chop – one big bump and I get it – no reaction at all from the crew

I wonder even how many irregular passengers realise that the FSB sign is a command from the captain, as opposed to an advisory?

Finally, many participant travel only once or twice a year and they simply forget and like Pavlov’s dogs, lose their conditioning.

None of which excuses some of the idiotic behaviour, but I’d thought I’d just take a few minutes to share something form my world, that might help you understand behaviour a little more.

EYXW

Final 3 Greens - what an interesting post - I know my comparison didn't have a great basis in science but I never knew I would find someone on PPRuNe who knew so much about it!!

Perhaps I shall take a box of Lindt in every day and ask the CC to hand it out to those complying with the FSB Sign!

In terms of educating customers of the negative impacts of non-compliance I agree to a certain point - though I worry at going as far as showing people what severe turbulence can look like - it would probably deter more people from flying at all for an event that I have only experienced once. Though I am sure there is some solution we could arrive at.

Like everything though consistency is the order of the day, like you, I despair when the light is on and I can quite clearly see pax in the aisles on the door camera with no reaction from the CC - this is a very rare occurrence though, but, what might be a rare for us could be 100% of the flights a particular passenger completes with us that year.

Perhaps the answer is to have one of those annoying beeps that goes off when someone has not strapped in, like the one in my car - it drives me to instant compliance or it would drive me mad!

As with a lot of the safety procedures and training undertaken, the FSB Sign is there to keep passengers safely in their seats just in case something that they are likely never to encounter occurs. That one sudden loss of altitude they may never see is what we are hoping to protect them from but, the fact that most will never see it, but will have definitely seen us illuminate that little light, helps to devalue the worth of that safety procedure.

Thanks for the education!

(PS I thought I should point out that I don't view passengers as akin to something less intelligent than a rat - in the few years I have been around I can only think of a handful that were unpleasant RE seat belts - the rest are welcome to dinner at FL370 anytime).