BA and Project Columbus II
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Ozzie O - you made a post accusing people of being petty and jealous of BASSAs agreeements and you posted it in very large font. Do you recall that? Perhaps the moderator deleted and not you, but both HM and I saw it and so it was there. I'm not appointed as spokesperson for anyone but myself, and the thrust of my post was not that you might have insulted anyone in particular and hurt their feelings, but that you were resorting to the standard BASSA fallback position of playing the man rather than the ball.
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Sir, I would not expect a B747 Captain to understand the reality of my pay. It only becomes an issue when others livelihood starts to look threatened.
Cuckoo land is ironic. I did however expect it to be turned into an insult at some stage. I always told myself that it would be a humourless, narrow minded, self-centred individual that would stoop so low. Such a person would not be interested in debate, just imposition of their views. A BA manager perhaps? No.
I'm disappointed that the individual is part of a group who asked for support when their livelihood was under threat from Openskies. This, we were told, will filter down and effect everyone in time. Seems Openskies has flopped, pilots are in the clear but the effects are still filtering down.
Cuckoo land is ironic. I did however expect it to be turned into an insult at some stage. I always told myself that it would be a humourless, narrow minded, self-centred individual that would stoop so low. Such a person would not be interested in debate, just imposition of their views. A BA manager perhaps? No.
I'm disappointed that the individual is part of a group who asked for support when their livelihood was under threat from Openskies. This, we were told, will filter down and effect everyone in time. Seems Openskies has flopped, pilots are in the clear but the effects are still filtering down.
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PC767 - I believe your representation of cabin crew pay is somewhat economical with the truth. Believe it or not many of us are quite familiar with the monthly take home of BA cabin crew, and we share similar advantageous tax arrangements between our jobs, which means we can work out what sort of salary one would have to be earning in a conventional job to achieve that take home. Given the base line entry requirements for the job BA crew are handsomely rewarded in comparison to other jobs with similar entry requirements. The analogies with Easyjet many offer are often equally economical. Shortly before I left short haul I flew with a new entrant from Easyjet who conceded that some months he could have earned more in Easyjet, but only if he had had a bad month on Eurofleet and was comparing it to a good month in Easyjet, and even the latter would have required a number of 4 sector Nice days with the associated sky high duty free commission. Given the generally higher pay associated with WW over EF it's hard for people to claim the poverty they often allude to.
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PC767
1. I am not in a position to impose.
2. I am not management
3. I know your system of pay very well thanks
4. I know you protest too much because I regulary see (and hear) the evidence
5. It is not me you have to convince over the required 14% IFCE cuts being unfair
6. Doubtless the CAA in their annual figures are lying.
Bon chance
Such a person would not be interested in debate, just imposition of their views
2. I am not management
3. I know your system of pay very well thanks
4. I know you protest too much because I regulary see (and hear) the evidence
5. It is not me you have to convince over the required 14% IFCE cuts being unfair
6. Doubtless the CAA in their annual figures are lying.
Bon chance
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I'm no alluding to poverty.
The old 'monkeys could do your job' arguement. Good when all else fails.
Comparisons with both Emirates and Easyjet have been successfully challenged with BA management, the ones to whom the arguments are actually relevant, and the company has dropped them. Were they scared of the big scary cabin crew backed by the evil genius Bassa? Not in the slightest. Plenty of ex 'other' airline crew are around to point out and prove the actual facts.
I've flown with plenty of crew who have moved between fleets and there is apparently little difference between take home pay on fleets. In some cases s/h crew have the potential to earn more.
The old 'monkeys could do your job' arguement. Good when all else fails.
Comparisons with both Emirates and Easyjet have been successfully challenged with BA management, the ones to whom the arguments are actually relevant, and the company has dropped them. Were they scared of the big scary cabin crew backed by the evil genius Bassa? Not in the slightest. Plenty of ex 'other' airline crew are around to point out and prove the actual facts.
I've flown with plenty of crew who have moved between fleets and there is apparently little difference between take home pay on fleets. In some cases s/h crew have the potential to earn more.
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I don't see anyone saying monkeys could do your job. I am saying that cabin crew earnings are comparable with jobs considered both highly qualified and well paid in wider society, so when people selectively quote a basic pay and then claim they are hard up (or even below minimum wage as some did previously on the thread) it doesn't wash. Take a look in the executive job search section of the broadsheets on board and see what responsibilities are associated with jobs which pay equivalent earnings to a CSDs position.
I'm sure in some cases short haul crew can earn more than long haul, but that's the rub is it not? Only in some cases. In the majority of cases WW crew will earn more than EF crew on a monthly average basis.
I'm sure in some cases short haul crew can earn more than long haul, but that's the rub is it not? Only in some cases. In the majority of cases WW crew will earn more than EF crew on a monthly average basis.
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E/F earning more than L/H. Not a rub in the face.
The only comparable job to mine is other airline crew.
I'm a graduate, I work with other graduates. A CSD's pay most likely is comparable at some stage with the roles you mention. However the CSD will have reached the peak of their earnings, the executive jobs you recall in the broadsheets will be starting salaries. You cannot be a direct entry CSD. I recall similar arguements when BA regional bases were being closed. CSDs were earning more than First Officers. Well some were because they had been in the company for 30 plus years. The First Officers were in their first few years and had greater earning potential to come. More than any CSD could ever dream of and rightly so.
The only comparable job to mine is other airline crew.
I'm a graduate, I work with other graduates. A CSD's pay most likely is comparable at some stage with the roles you mention. However the CSD will have reached the peak of their earnings, the executive jobs you recall in the broadsheets will be starting salaries. You cannot be a direct entry CSD. I recall similar arguements when BA regional bases were being closed. CSDs were earning more than First Officers. Well some were because they had been in the company for 30 plus years. The First Officers were in their first few years and had greater earning potential to come. More than any CSD could ever dream of and rightly so.
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I still can't work out who I would be supporting on this issue if I was still at BA. You simply cannot measure BA to Easy or Ryan as a package, the same way you cannot measure a Ford against a Merc. But if I owned a Merc, I would expect a standard above that I would expect, if I owned a Ford.
Cabin Crew are part of the product that is on offer. Every crew member, whoever they work for, have to meet a standard when it comes to safety. Anything above that is just an enhancement of the product on offer.
The best service that I have ever had, was on Virgin. It was a staff ticket. However, I was also treated in a disgusting manner by a Virgin crew member on a full fare ticket and that is the one I talk about more often. I'm British, I moan.
If you are paid over the market rate, then fair enough. That is what you signed up to, but a bit of flexibility, carefully negotiated, could also give benefits too.
I left BA happily and with no resentment. I enjoyed my time there. But I left for more money. I doubt if any crew member with my length of service (if I had still been there) could leave for a pay rise, if still doing the same job.
Cabin Crew are part of the product that is on offer. Every crew member, whoever they work for, have to meet a standard when it comes to safety. Anything above that is just an enhancement of the product on offer.
The best service that I have ever had, was on Virgin. It was a staff ticket. However, I was also treated in a disgusting manner by a Virgin crew member on a full fare ticket and that is the one I talk about more often. I'm British, I moan.
If you are paid over the market rate, then fair enough. That is what you signed up to, but a bit of flexibility, carefully negotiated, could also give benefits too.
I left BA happily and with no resentment. I enjoyed my time there. But I left for more money. I doubt if any crew member with my length of service (if I had still been there) could leave for a pay rise, if still doing the same job.
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blimey Quote:
If the new fleet ends up on LGW T&Cs, BA crew will no longer be the benchmark, and no-one I'm sure wants that to happen.
Top T&Cs attract top people.
This imples that the LGW crews are second rate .
If the new fleet ends up on LGW T&Cs, BA crew will no longer be the benchmark, and no-one I'm sure wants that to happen.
Top T&Cs attract top people.
This imples that the LGW crews are second rate .
I'm also not saying the LGW T&Cs are bad, they're just not industry leading.
I've been at LGW over 11 years myself, and consider myself to be FIRST rate
Carnage Matey!
Unfortunately they also retain the dead wood who should have moved on long ago but can't match their current T&Cs in any other job.
Unfortunately they also retain the dead wood who should have moved on long ago but can't match their current T&Cs in any other job.
Also I would add that it is no BA employees fault for taking up the opportunity of applying and being successful for any role, should it exist within the company (no matter what the salary and add ons).
If the role of paperclip supervisor was created by BA with a basic pay of 34K a year plus shift pay I suspect a lot of people would apply. If BA create the role and the unions are astute enough to keep it in place, more fool BA. It's not the individuals fault for taking the job, but they will certainly live to that salary.
Changing take home pay affects people. Focus on Cost will result in people losing their jobs ultimately (even their homes maybe). Yes it may be to save the majority and the company. But everyone in BA and in most jobs in the UK took it in good faith that it would help/improve/support them and their home situations. To have the rug pulled from under you is no matter what the reason is earth shattering.
If you read this thread, it is really a testement to self preservation. Cabin crew want to keep what they have as it's a good deal. Pilots don't want to see BA go down the toilet because of industrial action by a militant union (and I'm sure neither does anyone else).
At the end of the day everyone needs to make concessions. But will those concessions be fair across every department?
Time will tell.
Last edited by WeLieInTheShadows; 3rd Mar 2009 at 21:05.
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I hope you agree this applies to the pilots as well as the cabin crew?
T+C wise due to the experience levels in BA most of us would under normal circumstances find similar, if not higher in some parts of the world, paid flying work.
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Dead wood as in "bad operators"....maybe.
Although I know of two demoted "never to be Captains again" (I am aware their errors were fairly serious - such that there was a long running thread on here about one of them) out there who are still flying for us.
Pilots who hate the job or BA, there are a few more of them.
I would hazzard a guess that living the ex pat life is not on some peoples radar (or their wives). So putting up with BA and the company it has become in the 2000s for the rest of their careers, and enjoying the best flying T&Cs the UK has to offer, is the best of a bad lot.
I would hasten to add that these people are in the minority. But not too dissimilar to the cabin crew after all?
Unlike CC where even gross incompetence never results in more than a demotion.
Pilots who hate the job or BA, there are a few more of them.
T+C wise due to the experience levels in BA most of us would under normal circumstances find similar, if not higher in some parts of the world, paid flying work.
I would hasten to add that these people are in the minority. But not too dissimilar to the cabin crew after all?
Last edited by WeLieInTheShadows; 3rd Mar 2009 at 21:29.
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Don't know either of those then, but make sure they were actually demoted. Lots of LGW captains take a voluntary move to a long haul FOs position for lifestyle reasons and demotion from command on a short haul aircraft for performance reasons normally precludes being directly posted to a long haul fleet. Gotta be classed as suitable for command to move to a long haul fleet for insurance purposes.
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I would hazzard a guess that living the ex pat life is not on some peoples radar (or their wives). So putting up with BA and the company it has become in the 2000s for the rest of their careers, and enjoying the best flying T&Cs the UK has to offer, is the best of a bad lot.
I think youd be suprised how many pilots lose their job in BA through poor performance in Sims etc. Theres at least 20 ex LGW capts on the -400 in the RHS by choice.
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There is at least one pilot on the 400 that has been demoted from the LHS. I will not name names or give anymore clues as to their identity as that is not relevant. But captains can be and are demoted in BA.
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Do Captains who are demoted to F/O keep their Captains basic salary?
Perhaps the fact that BASSA are refusing to negotiate unless all other depts get the same degree of cuts will get the thread back on track
